• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Dear Sony, fix the damn PS2 emulation

Guileless

Guileless

Temp Banned for Remedial Purposes
Kintaro said:
Trying DQ8 is fun. It looks good, but all the fine lines due to the art style create alot of shimming/jaggies. I don't know if this was the case playing directly from the PS2.
Click to expand...

DQ8 looks much better on PS2 via S-video than on the PS3 via HDMI on my display. The jaggies are distracting enough that I couldn't play it on PS3.
 
S

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
JeFfRey said:
I'm surprised that Sony hasn't even acknowledged the problem yet. It just sucks to wait.
Click to expand...

Huh? Why on earth would anyone expect any different? We are still talking about the same people that told me 2 of my PS2's in no way, shape, or form, had any laser problems. They said this after they were presented the huge mountain of evidence before the lawsuit. They still stuck to their guns and only changed tune after losing. Do I expect any different? Not really.

EDIT: However, with their recent willingness to update stuff rather frequently through firmware, we might just see an update with no talk about it ;)
 
L

LevelNth

Banned
I don't think anyone asked my earlier question about why you shouldn't run any PS1/PS2 games with the display settings at 720p or 1080i/p. What's wrong with that again?
 
p_xavier

p_xavier

Authorized Fister
LevelNth said:
I don't think anyone asked my earlier question about why you shouldn't run any PS1/PS2 games with the display settings at 720p or 1080i/p. What's wrong with that again?
Click to expand...

I don't know what's wrong with that since your PS3 outputs in 480i/p ONLY. So even if you change the settings in XMB, it'll still output the same.
 
DCharlie

DCharlie

Banned
as requested....

Apres mangle Okami... this made me very sad :(

309948803_781b391802_b.jpg

309949624_8478964d71_b.jpg

309950433_4ffff0eae4_b.jpg

309951374_51dc87219a_b.jpg

309952281_2c1931f795_b.jpg

309953021_dc1ae4cccd_b.jpg
 
B

byproduct

The Amiga Brotherhood
Don't PS2 games look like this on an LCD HDTV anyway?

Edit: Don't have a PS2 but I plugged my gamecube into a HDTV for a game of F-Zero a few weeks ago and it looks jag-tastic. Even Ocarina of Time seems more jaggy.
 
F

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
dark10x said:
I tried SSX3 over lunch. As you said, it clearly runs in 512x512. Enabling progressive scan produces an image no different from that of the PS2, however (expected, as the PS3 is no longer de-interlacing the image). I also tested Silent Hill 2 and Tekken Tag.
Silent Hill was also known for using a different resolution and the results are every bit as terrible as those Square-Enix logos floating around. Tekken wasn't nearly as bad as expected, however. A bit flickery, but overall clean enough.
Click to expand...
That just confirms what I've said in the original post.
Horizontally misaligned pixels (like the Squenix logo) happen when title output an odd horizontal resolution (eg. 512). Tekken (as most early titles) was using full 640, so it will not be affected.
Progressive scan "fixes" things because titles change their Output buffer to 640 (so in case of SSX and others like it, title renders 512x512, then scales contents to 640x480. When the same title runs interlaced, 512x512 is copied to 512x512 and CRT handles the "scaling").
The issue is not in deinterlacing per se - it's scaling of the 512 signal to fit 640.
This is also why ICO works (640x240), while SOTC has problems (512x512, except when running progressive).

Onix said:
Anyway ... I do wonder if there are any progressive games that use non-standard output resolutions?
Click to expand...
No, if you tried outputting progressive in non-standard res, it would just get displayed in a smaller window (which wouldn't pass Sony Q&A). See above how games handled this.

are we sure the PS2 even scaled the images at all
Click to expand...
It's "scaling" by outputting a different H frequency (as you noted yourself). So pixel just becomes stretched on the CRT display.
But this only worked for interlaced outputs - PS2 CRT wouldn't allow this on progressive (so we would scale the buffer before outputting it in that case).

manp said:
a combination of non-standard buffers and deinterlacing algorithm, may be something like this?
Click to expand...
Well, it appears (on PS3 at least) to be horizontal scaling problem, but yea, it's clearly a problem of how scaler works. My Samsung LCD doesn't do this, so I can't say if TV has the symptoms with same titles.


nincompoop said:
Well software emulation hasn't exactly done wonders for Xbox 360 backwards compatibility...
Click to expand...
Afaik software emulation on PS3 is already better then 360 ever was, whether it'll ever be 97+% I wouldn't know though.
 
R

Ryu1999

Member
This looks exactly like what happened when I tried to play Gundam: Climax U.C. with the Xploder disc @ 480p. Except, that looks even worse than the current PS3 problems since it looks like there's a ghost following everything when I did that
 
B

Beer Monkey

Member
nincompoop said:
Well software emulation hasn't exactly done wonders for Xbox 360 backwards compatibility...
Click to expand...

But the titles that do work don't end up looking like total ass.

Both solutions are lacking. Hopefully at some point we see solutions with the compatibility level of the PS3, but with smooth graphics for all old titles regardless of original framebuffer resolution.
 
N

nincompoop

Banned
Fafalada said:
Afaik software emulation on PS3 is already better then 360 ever was, whether it'll ever be 97+% I wouldn't know though.
Click to expand...
? The PS3 isn't doing software emulation for backwards compatability I thought? Or are you referring to something else.
beermonkey@tehbias said:
But the titles that do work don't end up looking like total ass.
Click to expand...
But they run like total ass!
 
K

KennyL

Member
So it all comes down to lack of scaling on PS3. Fixing scaling could fix so many issues if that's even possible.
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Fafalada said:
That just confirms what I've said in the original post.
Horizontally misaligned pixels (like the Squenix logo) happen when title output an odd horizontal resolution (eg. 512). Tekken (as most early titles) was using full 640, so it will not be affected.
Progressive scan "fixes" things because titles change their Output buffer to 640 (so in case of SSX and others like it, title renders 512x512, then scales contents to 640x480. When the same title runs interlaced, 512x512 is copied to 512x512 and CRT handles the "scaling").
The issue is not in deinterlacing per se - it's scaling of the 512 signal to fit 640.
This is also why ICO works (640x240), while SOTC has problems (512x512, except when running progressive).


No, if you tried outputting progressive in non-standard res, it would just get displayed in a smaller window (which wouldn't pass Sony Q&A). See above how games handled this.


It's "scaling" by outputting a different H frequency (as you noted yourself). So pixel just becomes stretched on the CRT display.
But this only worked for interlaced outputs - PS2 CRT wouldn't allow this on progressive (so we would scale the buffer before outputting it in that case).


Well, it appears (on PS3 at least) to be horizontal scaling problem, but yea, it's clearly a problem of how scaler works. My Samsung LCD doesn't do this, so I can't say if TV has the symptoms with same titles.



Afaik software emulation on PS3 is already better then 360 ever was, whether it'll ever be 97+% I wouldn't know though.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the corrections & info. As always ... you kick ass!


Would you agree that if they can't find a clever way of scaling the image digitally ...

... then they should at least update the PS3 to do passthrough over the analog outs (assuming that is possible)?
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Fafalada,


Actually, this brings up an interesting question. Does the PS3 have the ability to do 'scaling' (h synch) on it's analog output?

If so, this would be a relatively simply solution for PS1/2 games - other than the configuration of video outs being a little convoluted, as well has being forced to use analog (at least for interlaced games with 'odd' resolutions).



If it is the case that the PS3 can do this ... the bigger question is ... can it be used for HD resolutions?

Think about it ... that could be the solution for PS3 games as well!!


The people that have TV's that do not accept 720p ... they could use analog outs if the PS3 can scale the image to 1080i. That would be perfect.


People with HDMI do not need to worry, since basically all HDMI TV's accept 720p. Any that don't (are there any?) must be 1080i CRT's. In their case, there really isn't a reason to actually use HDMI/DVI since the TV has to convert it to analog anyway. Those TV's don't really benefit from a digital signal ... so they might as well use analog.


?????
 
O

ourumov

Member
If all this theory about the resolution being the key factor is actually true then I guess RRV might be like a really "nice" thing to see on a PS3... Because if the original one was already a bit jaggie, with this pixel messing could be almost incredible to see...
I don't think this is really hard to fix... Isn't the PS3 just soft-emuling all those titles ?
 
R

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
ourumov said:
If all this theory about the resolution being the key factor is actually true then I guess RRV might be like a really "nice" thing to see on a PS3... Because if the original one was already a bit jaggie, with this pixel messing could be almost incredible to see...
I don't think this is really hard to fix... Isn't the PS3 just soft-emuling all those titles ?
Click to expand...

No, it has an EE/GS chip inside of it.

The question is whether the output controller has the ability modify the h-synch in order to 'scale' the image.

Also, note ... this will only solve analog output - not HDMI.






As for RRV, I'll dig it up and test it this weekend. Whether it looks terrible will be based on what resolution it was actually running at. The jaggies it had were not directly related to the resolution, but were the result of field-rendering, no interlace filtering, and 60fps to my knowledge.
 
T

terrene

Banned
Onix said:
No, it has an EE/GS chip inside of it.

The question is whether the output controller has the ability modify the h-synch in order to 'scale' the image.

Also, note ... this will only solve analog output - not HDMI.
Click to expand...
This is an honest question.

Do we really know enough about the PS3's internals to make blanket statements like this? There is some sort of software layer running during "PS2 mode" on the console, otherwise the system wouldn't have return to XMB, "connect controller" dialogues, or this attempt to scale to 480p in the first place, right? Do we really know the limitation on what kind of software solution they could shove in there?
 
F

firefoxsux

Banned
i request psone test!

btw seems sony should embed edram to rsx. take out ee/gs. put in forudja dcdi scaler. it be awesome like ps2. too bad so sad.
 
C

chespace

It's not actually trolling if you don't admit it
MGS3 already tested?

What about GT4? The GTA games?

Gradius V? Contra Shattered Soldier? Dark Cloud 2? ZOE2?
 
F

Flo_Evans

Member
I ran a few PS2 games for fun to see what worked.... after a few I got pissed and stopped :lol

here are the results:

Yakuza - FAIL
MGS2 - FAIL
MGS3 - FAIL
ZOE - FAIL
CMR3 - FAIL

Street Fighter Alpha Anthology - PASS!
GT3 - PASS!
Ace Combat 4 - PASS!
Radiata Stories - PASS!
Gulty Gear X - PASS!

tried to hit a few that haven't been covered. ZOE2, GT4, and Katamri are all out on loan sorry (I need to get that shit back!)

PS1 games I tried all looked OK for what they are GT2, Bushido blade 2, and Soul Blade didn't seem to have any issues.

One cool thing I noticed, if you put in a PS2 CD it shows up as blue in the XMB :lol

I wish I could take cool pics like DCharlie to document this but my digicam is officialy dead it seems :(
 
A

Acosta

Member
Farore said:
Tales of? SotC? DMC? SMT?
Click to expand...

SMT looks terrible, I tested yesteday through HDMI in a 26" Bravia. Really, really bad, you don´t want to see screens.

Is a disgrace, hope they fix this and fast.
 
T

thetrin

Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
Farore said:
Tales of? SotC? DMC? SMT?
Click to expand...

I was playing Abyss on PS3. Looks like utter trash. Has the same blocky issues as Okami and FF12.
 
Manp

Manp

Member
Fafalada said:
Well, it appears (on PS3 at least) to be horizontal scaling problem, but yea, it's clearly a problem of how scaler works. My Samsung LCD doesn't do this, so I can't say if TV has the symptoms with same titles.
Click to expand...
what model is your Samsung LCD? which connection do you use?
just to know :p

:)
 
A

Avalon

Member
Do these graphic problems only happen when using HDMI?

Here is a thought. When you run PS1 generation games of anything higher composite the graphics are horribly pixelated. Perhaps component is the highest PS2 games can go before they suffer from the same problem?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

So, what's preventing Sony from allowing me to put PS2 discs on my PS5?
2 3
125
11K
DrCheese replied
Ozzy autographed PS2, launch PS3, Amiibo lot, Last Guardian CE, games.
4
2K
Toots replied
Proprietary hardware for consoles was ass, actually
Opinion Analysis 2 3 4
175
11K
Ozzy Onya A2Z replied
My first 3 months with a PS5 is kinda a mixed bag...
2 3 4 5
200
13K
TropicanaTwista replied
Let's talk about old mobile gaming (Java, Symbian, BREW)
2 3
122
21K
Trunx81 replied
Top Bottom