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Logan |OT| Children of (X)Men (SPOILERS)
- Thread starter MMarston
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GIANKRATOS
Member
Wow, one of the best super hero movies easily for me.
The line doesn't feel right, but does to you. Cool. You constantly trying to say it does as fact doesn't make it so. Sorry, dude.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
What are you even trying to do here though.
It doesn't resemble conversation in the least.
BronsonLee
Member
Broken Joystick
At least you can talk. Who are you?
NealMcCauley
Member
Heh, I rewatched The Wolverine over the weekend and that stuck out to me.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Oh man, that's good.
That kind of hits hard.Wow, either a hell of a coincidence or this was planned. Either way, I love it!
Damn
AuthenticM
Member
Well I mean it's pretty obvious. It's been pointed out multiple people why they feel it doesn't make sense to them. We watched the same film and absorbed the same information. Because it meant something to you or others is one thing. It doesn't have to be right and wrong, but not everybody has to enjoy a thing. These discussions aren't just for gushing about how good a thing is.
As others and myself have pointed out. In the film shown her calling him dad didn't feel like it made very much sense and cheapens the emotional impact for me. It felt lame.
I love this movie so much . I have seen it twice and there as so many little things I missed the first time. Only comic book movie that has made me tear up.
I wish we could get a Tony Stark movie with him just dealing with all the shit he's done, losing pepper, and dealing with alcoholism.Give it the same emotional punch. Robert downey jr could pull it off but it will never happen.
I wish we could get a Tony Stark movie with him just dealing with all the shit he's done, losing pepper, and dealing with alcoholism.Give it the same emotional punch. Robert downey jr could pull it off but it will never happen.
BronsonLee
Member
Holy shit could you imagine
We don't deserve heavy hitters like Jackman and Downey tbh. I'm way used to people clinging and clutching to their spot/never showing vulnerability ever, but Jackman made a movie where he's an old ass decaying superhero and Downey voluntarily was second lead in a movie and fuckin' lost the big fight
If they ever make a Captain America movie where most of it basically give you the same feels as the end of the First Avenger where he walked out into New York and doesn't recognize anything and feel incredibly sad.
I don't think I'll make it through the movie. But I'll try, cause I'd love to watch one where he's dealing with the fact that most of the people he knew from his childhood are dead, the people he served with.
I don't think I'll make it through the movie. But I'll try, cause I'd love to watch one where he's dealing with the fact that most of the people he knew from his childhood are dead, the people he served with.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
But you're not really trying to have discussions at all, Fletcher. This is not what discussion looks like:
Look at that, man! "I thought it was dumb. Because I thought it was dumb. I didn't like this movie. Explaining why beyond "I thought it was dumb" isn't worth it. Sorry it offends your film!"
Like, what does that mean? Nobody's "offending our film." It's not even our film. Nobody here made the shit. We just watched it.
That's you, basically. Except now you have to add the chip where you think you have to call out everyone else who disagrees with you (and actually took the time to fuckin' explain why they did) as mindless "Gushers" unwilling to be critical like you!
You know, the kind of critical that begins and ends at "...I thought it was dumb haha."
Everything was masterful. I still can't stop thinking about this movie. It's just how I imagined an old, superhero/mutant would fair, especially one who was always a little rough around the edges. Every scene hits hard, from being rudely shoved aside by drunk bridesmaids trying to get to a party, arguing with a salesman over a price of a boat, to chasing his elderly, dementia-stricken friend around in circles who was once a well-respected, powerful, and nearly godlike mutant himself.
Car break down-induced rage fits. Being shot by random dudes. Getting sliced up and gutted while his wounds heal little to nothing. Being strapped on cash, dignity, and the will to live. Wolverine, living day by day like an average schmo, just like one of us. Even the most powerful moments such as the deaths of Charles and Logan. They were intentionally minimal, as one user here stated, because it's often how death is in real life. You don't have anytime to say the things you want to the people you care about. They're taken from you on a whim. There's no long monologues or speeches to give them a "good" death. It's quick and painful. But in his death, he allowed his fellow mutants a chance at life.
Beautiful movie.
Car break down-induced rage fits. Being shot by random dudes. Getting sliced up and gutted while his wounds heal little to nothing. Being strapped on cash, dignity, and the will to live. Wolverine, living day by day like an average schmo, just like one of us. Even the most powerful moments such as the deaths of Charles and Logan. They were intentionally minimal, as one user here stated, because it's often how death is in real life. You don't have anytime to say the things you want to the people you care about. They're taken from you on a whim. There's no long monologues or speeches to give them a "good" death. It's quick and painful. But in his death, he allowed his fellow mutants a chance at life.
Beautiful movie.
Very true
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm hoping at least some of this tone is struck (and more successfully than they attempted it in Civil War) with Infinity War. Especially with Cap.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Thanks for handling that for me, Bobby.
Fletch was getting on my last nerve with that ballistic fuckery.
Fletch was getting on my last nerve with that ballistic fuckery.
Um ... wasn't that foreshadowing to an event that happened in The Wolverine? Like, Wolverine had a parasite in his heart or something, and needed to restart it, didn't he?
Somewhat but it lines up more beautifully with that scene in Logan.
Edit: you aren't wrong but it works on both levels
Not 'somewhat' - I just checked, that's a description of a scene that happens in The Wolverine.
No points awarded. You have to earn multi-film foreshadowing Mr. Mangold.
BronsonLee
Member
He's takin' it!
You aren't wrong. I think it works on both levels though.
DarkJediKnight
Member
Doesn't matter. This is exactly how he died. Maybe Mangold took that line and wanted it to happen.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Whether he meant it or not, that it can be read that way is still valid.
If someone wants to argue it was planned that way, that's harder, but if someone wants to say "I like that reading, and I'll keep it in mind on rewatch" or whatever, that's perfectly okay.
Me?
I like that reading. I'll keep it in mind on rewatch.
If someone wants to argue it was planned that way, that's harder, but if someone wants to say "I like that reading, and I'll keep it in mind on rewatch" or whatever, that's perfectly okay.
Me?
I like that reading. I'll keep it in mind on rewatch.
Liar, you keep coming back.
But since I just fed you a response, I might as well elaborate. Your inability to understand Charles being inconsistent disgusts me. Senility isn't a fucking binary switch. You don't just lose your ability to control yourself one day, then resign yourself to that lifestyle. It starts slowly and intermittently. That's true especially when medication is involved. The elderly have good days and bad days. They remember some things and forget others at different times.
My girlfriend's grandmother is 106 years old and now lives with my girlfriend's retired parents. Until five years ago, she was self sufficient, living across the street in a small home with frequent visits. Two years ago, she could still walk around in a limited manner and go to the bathroom on her own. Now, she cries often about "everyone she knows" being dead, despite being cared for and never being apart from her daughter, which she confuses for her sister. She doesn't recognize anyone for the most part, including her daughter or granddaughter that see her all the time, and often thinks she's staying in a stranger's house, shouting that she should be "home" and not imposing on people she doesn't know. She has good days, though. Sometimes she can remember the staff at a restaurant, or sing full songs from her childhood. She can have completely lucid days, remembering every conversation from breakfast or the day before.
My own father is 70, and his hands are starting to shake to the point of being unable to hold a cup of coffee without spilling it. His memory is starting to slip, and he repeats himself occasionally. We both know what's coming, despite being years or, hopefully, more than a decade away.
Going back to the Logan, I feel as though your inability to understand Charles's condition and behavior comes from ignorance regarding the elderly or the situations I described above. I see that condition only occasionally when visiting my girlfriend's parents, but it's depiction in the movie as glaringly accurate and heart wrenching. Everything you said in regards to his character sounds unaware and ignorant.
Your arguments regarding Laura, or the differences between Logan and his previous versions, also seem totally off-base to me, but those are separate issues that I don't even want to start typing about.
Grenouille
Member
The clone bothered me. Such a generic enemy. Loved the Xavier/Logan/girl relationship. Them sleeping in that family's house was really irresponsible though.
More_Badass
Member
People make irresponsible foolish choices driven by emotion rather than logic all the time. Partially why I liked that
I'd argue that having Sabertooth or some other mutant would have much more generic. X-24 being a clone of Logan has thematic heft that would be impossible to capture with any other enemy
Discotheque
Banned
It's nice to hope for things.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I'm a naive romantic, Disco.
When you're being chased by people with guns who have repeatedly tracked you it's more than irresponsible - it's idiotic, even for their own safety. That's not even to mention the possibility of Xavier having a seizure.
Logan sticking around, in case the folks who he threatened on behalf of the family turned up, would have been a better justification than Xavier wanting a warm bed.
This movie was seriously amazing, I'm shocked at how well it turned out. Action scenes had weight to them, the story was engaging throughout, it was funnier than I thought it would be, it's one of the most violent super hero movies out there, various character deaths had impact, it's very emotional, and the finale is one of my faves in a super hero movie to date. And dat ending, wow, what a way to go out, I will miss Hugh Jackman as Wolverine.
Also I teared up a bit at the end.
Also I teared up a bit at the end.
It's up there with some of the best!
The event with the family is interesting because it poses the "Is it worth it" question in a very intimidating way.
The scene with the family was needed to serve the thematic purposes of the movie. It was the only place where we saw a family who was functioning as it should be. It was loving, caring, kind, charitable...full humanity that has been bled out from the lives of all 3 protagonists. You could argue that it's diegetic inclusion was questionable, since perhaps Charles should have known better (even though he was suffering from dementia), or that Logan should have really put his foot down. But the truth was, both Charles and Logan needed this moment, the chance to just sit down and eat a meal with other human beings who have no ulterior motives. Just, psychologically, they needed to be partake in a humane event. What sells it the most is Charles' insistence on staying the night. "Just until morning? Then we'll leave, first light." He's almost like a child, begging to stay in his happy place putting Logan in the position of being the adult who should have made the responsible decision. But he's also like a terminally ill man with a painful cancer eating away at his bones, asking that his nurse leave the morphine on just a little longer, so he can avoid pain for just a little longer.
I see both these interpretations as equally true, even if they are mutually exclusive in a way. Having dinner with the family is a luxury...but is it? Moving on may have let him continue to live a bit longer, but would it have been worth living (for them) if the last thoughts were about those people they could have made a connection with and didn't? Because to people like Charles, once you remove enough humanity, death is truly preferable.
But that's not truly the challenge this segment of the film presents. It's also the fact that their decisions have consequences for those around them. Now, Logan and Charles can't truly be held responsible, because ultimately, it's the decision of the villains to be villains and kill them. And honestly, how could they have known they'd be able to track them into this in the middle of nowhere farm. Still, they understood that their presence gave the opportunity that something would go wrong. Not even because of these villains, but just the fact that that's so utterly typical of their lives as a whole. And the film doesn't shy away from this. The father's final action, before finally dropping dead, is to look to logan, aim his gun, and pull the trigger. Gun wasn't loaded, but the meaning was clear. "I blame you for this" is what he said.
I feel it's perfectly valid to argue that it's 100% worth it for Charles to have stayed and gotten his last taste of human connection before he was killed, and if it was his risk alone he was taking, then it would be the right choice. But it's not him alone. His need for that moment, those feelings, that destroyed the person he was connected to. Personally speaking, as a depressed person, I find that really relatable. I'm not a movie character, so logically speaking, I know for a fact that I am not a poison onto the lives of the people I connect with, but depression can make you feel that is the case. It's pretty horrible. It makes you feel guilty just for wanting to feel human, for allowing yourself that one bit of relief from the general shittiness of your life. It makes happiness itself into a sin and conveys that numbness and misery and emotional distances are what you should feel in life. And that's bullshit, or even if it's not, it should be. But what happens when you really, truly are a poison on the lives of others? What are you supposed to do when you really do ruin others lives just by existing in their proximity? That's the reality Logan lives in, and why the whole "Daddy" line at the end is earned. Laura and the other kids are the few who benefited from Logan being in their lives.
It's a situation without an easy answer, and I don't have one to offer. Sure, they could have kept driving and the family could have lived, and even Charles might have lived longer as well. But they can't, they actually psychologically can't, live like that and not want to die.
The scene with the family was needed to serve the thematic purposes of the movie. It was the only place where we saw a family who was functioning as it should be. It was loving, caring, kind, charitable...full humanity that has been bled out from the lives of all 3 protagonists. You could argue that it's diegetic inclusion was questionable, since perhaps Charles should have known better (even though he was suffering from dementia), or that Logan should have really put his foot down. But the truth was, both Charles and Logan needed this moment, the chance to just sit down and eat a meal with other human beings who have no ulterior motives. Just, psychologically, they needed to be partake in a humane event. What sells it the most is Charles' insistence on staying the night. "Just until morning? Then we'll leave, first light." He's almost like a child, begging to stay in his happy place putting Logan in the position of being the adult who should have made the responsible decision. But he's also like a terminally ill man with a painful cancer eating away at his bones, asking that his nurse leave the morphine on just a little longer, so he can avoid pain for just a little longer.
I see both these interpretations as equally true, even if they are mutually exclusive in a way. Having dinner with the family is a luxury...but is it? Moving on may have let him continue to live a bit longer, but would it have been worth living (for them) if the last thoughts were about those people they could have made a connection with and didn't? Because to people like Charles, once you remove enough humanity, death is truly preferable.
But that's not truly the challenge this segment of the film presents. It's also the fact that their decisions have consequences for those around them. Now, Logan and Charles can't truly be held responsible, because ultimately, it's the decision of the villains to be villains and kill them. And honestly, how could they have known they'd be able to track them into this in the middle of nowhere farm. Still, they understood that their presence gave the opportunity that something would go wrong. Not even because of these villains, but just the fact that that's so utterly typical of their lives as a whole. And the film doesn't shy away from this. The father's final action, before finally dropping dead, is to look to logan, aim his gun, and pull the trigger. Gun wasn't loaded, but the meaning was clear. "I blame you for this" is what he said.
I feel it's perfectly valid to argue that it's 100% worth it for Charles to have stayed and gotten his last taste of human connection before he was killed, and if it was his risk alone he was taking, then it would be the right choice. But it's not him alone. His need for that moment, those feelings, that destroyed the person he was connected to. Personally speaking, as a depressed person, I find that really relatable. I'm not a movie character, so logically speaking, I know for a fact that I am not a poison onto the lives of the people I connect with, but depression can make you feel that is the case. It's pretty horrible. It makes you feel guilty just for wanting to feel human, for allowing yourself that one bit of relief from the general shittiness of your life. It makes happiness itself into a sin and conveys that numbness and misery and emotional distances are what you should feel in life. And that's bullshit, or even if it's not, it should be. But what happens when you really, truly are a poison on the lives of others? What are you supposed to do when you really do ruin others lives just by existing in their proximity? That's the reality Logan lives in, and why the whole "Daddy" line at the end is earned. Laura and the other kids are the few who benefited from Logan being in their lives.
It's a situation without an easy answer, and I don't have one to offer. Sure, they could have kept driving and the family could have lived, and even Charles might have lived longer as well. But they can't, they actually psychologically can't, live like that and not want to die.
To be fair, before Logan leaves with Mr. Munson you can tell that Xavier is telling him something. It's hard to gauge how long they were actually going to stay as Xavier seemed fairly ready to start packing up when X-24 showed up.
That and, on the run or not, they would've had to stop somewhere to sleep regardless, it just happened to be wrong place, wrong time for the family.
Plus, a random farmhouse out in the middle of nowhere sounds like a decently safe place, things just took an unfortunate turn for the worse.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is a very good post.
Betting after the second weekend, this one and Spike's will start getting shared with increased frequency.
BronsonLee
Member
So are we gonna talk about Laura being down with the swirl or nah
Looked it up on urban dictionary. Bronson is asking if we are going to discuss if the 11 year old white girl wanted to have sex with the...15 year old black kid, I'd guess.
And no, I don't think we are.
Oh... yeah, lets not
BronsonLee
Member
Yeah thanks for framing it like I'm a pedo you fucking prick
It was a weirdass moment in the movie that gets glossed over because everyone gets murderized
It was a weirdass moment in the movie that gets glossed over because everyone gets murderized
Bobby Roberts
Banned
I thought she just wanted the headphones. Didn't even occur to me.
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