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12 Year Old Accidentally Shot and Killed by Officer During Dispute with Her Father
- Thread starter EdibleKnife
- Start date
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If a person points a gun at something, they intend to shoot. This is the first thing every gun owner learns.
You don't "bluff" with a gun.
This wasn't a case where the officer "thought" he saw a gun (which would be questionable). This is a case when a gun was directly pointed at him. And if it was pointed at him, the homeowner meant to kill him.
This is one of the reasons why officers are trained to shoot center mass. Bullets have much less of a chance of going clean through a torso. Arm/leg shots can either go through, or ricochet off bone.
It is a tragedy that the girl was shot, but based on the information provided in the OP, all the blame here lies directly on the father.
The officer had no way of knowing that the man wasn't going to fire at him. He has no way of knowing that he won't fire on anyone else. All he knows is that this guy's reaction to "Here comes a police officer to lawfully evict me" is "I'm going to get my gun." The situation was completely escalated on one side, and it resulted in tragedy.
I think it's a stretch that he was aiming for the guys arm, because like you said, we are trained to shoot center mass.
I think it's much more likely that his aim was bad, or that he got tunnel vision on the rifle due to stress and that's where his round went.
It happens often that officers will shoot someone's hand because the hyper-focus on the gun.
Captin Quacker
Member
he had to have some idea otherwise the cop wouldn't walked up to him and started a conversation with him
Tallshortman
Member
I can't believe there's still people who think police should be like perfectly trained robots who can "descalate" a suddenly drawn weapon or shoot the gun out of a suspects hand like some fucking video game.
Not in this case. He was defending himself from someone trying to shoot him. This is a horrible tragedy, but the father is the one to blame. The situation was already escalated when the father brandished the gun.
kavanf1
Member
This is maybe a separate thread in itself, but I agree that America is fucked when it comes to guns. The rest of the developed world looks on and is appalled and tut-tuts and feels superior that their country isn't in such a bad state when it comes to gun violence. Realistically though, the problem is so huge as to be nigh on impossible to address.
For argument's sake, say Obama unilaterally decreed all personal firearms illegal tomorrow. What would that do? There would still be 300 million firearms in circulation. That silly idea aside, even if there were a motion to make firearms illegal or at least better controlled, with a proposal on a gun amnesty with compensation provided for everyone who turned in a weapon, it would be opposed by roughly half the population, and - crucially - by some pretty big corporate interests. The motion wouldn't make it off the ground.
It's a total clusterfuck and I don't see how it can be remedied any time soon.
"Exchanged words briefly" does not mean that the police officer walked up to him and started a conversation.
Right. Law enforcement and the "justice" system are FUBAR, but this is not an example of that. If guns are okay, this is the kind of thing that can happen. You pull a gun on an officer at close range, you are asking to get shot. If the girl didn't get hit, I don't see this being a story. Unfortunately, tragically, she did. And that's part of the danger of firearms. So that should be the focus of the outrage, not the officer. Guns. But supposedly I'm crazy for thinking guns in general are a big problem, and "better legislation" is a joke, like putting a bandaid on the Titanic.
Captin Quacker
Member
agreed I worded that badly
I'm just sayin the officer had time to assess the scene before he started talking to the guy
Are you suggesting that the officer should have known that he was going to have a rifle pointed at him prior to knocking on the door? And that he would have some hyper-keen level of deductive reasoning to know for 100% that he wasn't going to be shot once the gun was pulled?
Captin Quacker
Member
Man is standing in doorway without gun.
Man closes door.
Man opens door.
Man is standing in doorway with gun.
When was the officer supposed to assess that this man was going was going to be a lethal threat?
Yes, hence "prior to". Unless you think the cop was going to kick the door in when he reached it. And you didn't answer the questions.
Aztechnology
Member
Seriously. I say before anyone else makes a blanket statement about how cops should always descalate they should have to put themselves in his shoes and tell us what you would have done given that situation. A man opens his door and levels a gun at you, what do you do? Cops may be trained to handle these situations, but they are also trained to protect their own lives.
IMO anyone saying they would walk away and call for backup is unbelievably delusional. As soon as that gun is pointed at you, you must assume they are willing to shoot. Would you take that chance knowing next to nothing about the person holding that weapon?
Captin Quacker
Member
From way the story reads sounds as like he saw the cop coming tho
Not sure what that has to do with my questions. My question is about how the cop should have reacted in that situation. To reiterate:
Are you suggesting that the officer should have known that he was going to have a rifle pointed at him prior to knocking on the door? And that he would have some hyper-keen level of deductive reasoning to know for 100% that he (the cop) wasn't going to be shot once the gun was pulled?
SolicitorPirate
Member
I know gaf has a lot of hate for cops, but it seems insane to me that people are trying to pin this on the cop.
It's pretty crazy. I've legitimately never had a positive interaction with a police officer (I've been racial profiled and harassed for it several times) but there is no universe in which the cop is to blame in this case.
Some of the comments in here are exactly why serious gun discussion nor law enforcement can be had. When you point a gun at an officer you are highly likely to be fired on. This should be common knowledge.
It should also be common knowledge by now that LEO's are people too, and thus have fight or flight kick in as well. Some people on this site for some odd reason seem to believe LEO's lives are just as valuable as those they protect. They have friends, family, loved ones, as well as the right to live.
It should also be common knowledge by now that LEO's are people too, and thus have fight or flight kick in as well. Some people on this site for some odd reason seem to believe LEO's lives are just as valuable as those they protect. They have friends, family, loved ones, as well as the right to live.
Captin Quacker
Member
Look we both know the answer to those questions of course I don't expect the cop to be a precog but the story makes it sound like he approached an armed suspect
jhmtehgamr20xx
Banned
None of that matters here. He still had a responsibility to make the best decisions for the sake of his daughter. And now because of one of those decisions he made, his daughter is dead. The onus is on him.
I don't see how the officer is responsible this time, and that's saying a lot considering it's America.
I wish I could say I am surprised that people are still trying to make the cop out to be the bad guy here.
The tragedy here is huge and the reality is, as has been said if there was not a gun in the house, odds are very high the girl would be alive.
Those saying that the cop should have left, when you have a crazy guy at the door with a gun freaking about losing his house he can just as easily shoot you in the back as you go to your car to try and stop you from bringing anyone else.
He went from open door talk, to close door and re-open it with a gun. WITH HIS CHILD THERE.
It is just terrible that she paid the price.
The tragedy here is huge and the reality is, as has been said if there was not a gun in the house, odds are very high the girl would be alive.
Those saying that the cop should have left, when you have a crazy guy at the door with a gun freaking about losing his house he can just as easily shoot you in the back as you go to your car to try and stop you from bringing anyone else.
He went from open door talk, to close door and re-open it with a gun. WITH HIS CHILD THERE.
It is just terrible that she paid the price.
Subpar Scrub
Banned
I always look for your posts. It's nice having contribution from someone with experience in the job in some of these threads.
I'm asking based on what you said prior:
As far as I can tell, the officer assessed the situation (had a rifle pulled on him) and reacted accordingly. The only way one could reasonably react any differently in that situation is if they're certain that they're not about to be shot. Given that the officer has (by your own admission) no way of knowing for sure how the gun wielder is going to proceed once the gun is aimed at him, he's forced to defend himself.
It is absolutely tragic that this little girl died because of it but I hope that you are rational enough to admit that it's not the cop's fault.
...Scatter...
Banned
I thought it occurred at the end of December. I could be wrong but that's how I read it.
The gun laws (or lack of) are also responsible for it in that case.
I'm as skeptical about the police as anyone here, but even I have to admit, given the facts we know as of now, I can't blame the cop for this shooting death. Yes, believe it or not, there are situations where police shooting incidents resulting in death is not the cop's fault, or at least they are not solely at fault.
Pointing a gun at an officer will, in all likelihood, result in police firing at you. Don't be delusional and think otherwise. And, no, police training does not give officers fucking "Spidey sense" to determine whether a gun-wielding person in front of them will actually fire their weapon at them or bystanders. And, no, police are not obligated to risk their lives to subdue someone attacking them with a deadly weapon on the off chance that that person "didn't mean it".
Pointing a gun at an officer will, in all likelihood, result in police firing at you. Don't be delusional and think otherwise. And, no, police training does not give officers fucking "Spidey sense" to determine whether a gun-wielding person in front of them will actually fire their weapon at them or bystanders. And, no, police are not obligated to risk their lives to subdue someone attacking them with a deadly weapon on the off chance that that person "didn't mean it".
Captin Quacker
Member
I never said it was the officer fault doesn't mean we can't try piece together what happened based off what we know
My post pertained to whether or not the cop had time to call for backup once he saw the gun again the story we have is
the cop was on approach
father came out when back in came out with gun
They had a brief talk
So did the cop walk straight up to an armed suspect is the question
I'm all on the bandwagon for the horrific abuses of power and unwarranted shooting by police officers but in the particular instance I absolutely agree with the above.
Obviously the father did not expect his daughter to be shot, but it is his actions that lead to this terrible outcome
Michael F. Assbender
Banned
Horrible tragedy.
Yep. Cop should've totally let the guy fire off a round or two of buckshot into his face. That way, the kid can be homeless and fatherless, and the cop's wife and kids can be husbandless and fatherless.
I rolled my eyes so hard, the ground shook.
Yep. Cop should've totally let the guy fire off a round or two of buckshot into his face. That way, the kid can be homeless and fatherless, and the cop's wife and kids can be husbandless and fatherless.
I rolled my eyes so hard, the ground shook.
Out of curiosity, why do you think this? I mean, I'm all for smart guns but how would it have helped in this situation? A smart gun is usually a gun that has some kind of method of identifying who's wielding it making it harder to be used against the owner but there's not really a smart gun out there that would prevent the owner from using it in a nefarious way. The only weapon I know of that'd prevent a legitimate user from using it is a rifle with a scope that allows you to tag a target and the rifle will refuse to fire unless you are "guaranteed" to hit that target.
I want to also touch on some people who think police absolutely should not fire unless fired upon and should be ready to forfeit their lives for that idea. I mean, I like that idea, any who can do that are better people than myself, however, there is no fucking way you can fill all the roles of police with such people, there are not enough people like that in the world. It will not happen, it's physically impossible. Wanting it is a pipe dream, it's not worth hoping for or pushing for and in my opinion just stymies any real discussion towards ways to make the country safer by placing all the blame on cops when we as citizens do carry some of that weight. If there was not the constant threat of death to police, and be honest in many places there is, then people's initial response to having a gun pointed at them might be different. I don't think you can expect or mandate people to suppress their natural self preservation instincts but if getting shot on the job was such a wildly insane outcome that even with a gun pointed at you you still didn't quite believe it at the time more people would take those risks. And perhaps if guns were so rare the US could follow other countries and lots of cops wouldn't even be armed and even if their natural instinct told them to shoot all they'd have would be a taser or baton. But the US is not such a place yet and it never will be by just demanding the police themselves to change without changing our society as a whole.
Cabbagehead
Member
What world do you live in? this is not a tv show, nor a novel.
I don't understand what the argument is, the cop saw a gun being pointed at him and fired. If I were a cop and saw someone come to the door, go back in and come out again with a rifle I would have fired. Dangerous situation caused by the father; I put the blame entirely on him.
And like someone else said, could have just sold the rifle and paid of at least half or more of that unpaid rent.
And like someone else said, could have just sold the rifle and paid of at least half or more of that unpaid rent.
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