The only somewhat concerning aspect of the smaller size is what it means for battery life. The dev kits apparently get 3 hours. I hope the retail versions can expand that to 4 or a bit more, that would cover pretty much all my VR sessions except for the time when I just got the Vive.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Lots of new Valve/SteamVR "Knuckles" Controller info (separate finger tracking!)
- Thread starter Durante
- Start date
I'd prefer to just be able to slide a AA into each one.
Edit: Though the design may be too tight for even that.
MadJackChurchill
Banned
This looks like the next big step. Day one.
What is the battery life of the Vive wands? I doubt Valve would made controllers with battery life inferior to that.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Zulubo Production made a prototype test video for the controller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kovhtH3r9o0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kovhtH3r9o0
QuantumSquid
Member
Finger tracking is exactly what VR porn games needed.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
Wow, that really looks like an impressive amount of granularity in the fingers. It's effectively analog!
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=953648265
More details here, including the demo for use in unity for developers
More details here, including the demo for use in unity for developers
Arc Christelle
Member
Took 47 posts smh.
Noisepurge
Member
I'm just worried that as we are still in the first gen prototype phase, these will come and be replaced in months by the next thing.
VR needs some kind of a standardized controller, like the twinstick gamepad consoles have had since '98.
Teknopathetic
Member
"VR needs some kind of a standardized controller, like the twinstick gamepad consoles have had since '98."
The twinstick gamepad wasn't "standard" until like 2001. And that's after more than 20 years of console gaming.
The twinstick gamepad wasn't "standard" until like 2001. And that's after more than 20 years of console gaming.
Not to mention that its limitations have had negative consequences to game design, in large part due to the right analog stick's drawbacks.
No, it's far too early for any definite standards, but the good thing is that VR's natural abstraction-less goal for input should make it easy to iterate on without much fractioning. That and a good abstraction layer like OpenVR.
D
Deleted member 22576
Unconfirmed Member
Whaaaaaat that's truly insane!!!!!
civilstrife
Member
Here's hoping it works for with current Vives and won't cost a ton.
ProgenitorCastle
Banned
lmaoooooo XD
Auto-Reply
Member
Zulubo Production made a prototype test video for the controller
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kovhtH3r9o0
Nice, that's the guy who made Vertigo (which is awesome) I hope he/they are doing a game with the knuckles controller in mind down the road!
Zalusithix
Member
Yeah, I'm rather surprised they got that level of fine control out of capacitive sensing. I mean, I knew it was theoretically possible, but seeing is believing.
I'd say it does. There's no mention of a particular revision in the quick start guide:
The demo looks really impressive.
I hope these get released this year, they look basically ready!
(Sadly physical manufacturing isn't like software)
I hope these get released this year, they look basically ready!
(Sadly physical manufacturing isn't like software)
I'd say around 5-6 hours? I've never run out.
Azure Dream
Member
There was a rumor they were going to show off gloves at this E3, shame that didn't pan out.
Launching with controllers a generation old (and not that great to begin with) as tracking tech was madness.
Candescence
Member
These controllers are looking splendid indeed, definately a huge improvement over the Vive controllers. All we need is more buttons, now.
Honestly, I can deal with dual trackpads. Sticks work for analog movement, but trackpads work perfectly fine, too. I've actually been practicing with trackpad movement for kicks a bit lately, and much to my surprise movement in both third-person and first-person games is no more difficult than it is with a stick - it's just a matter of adjusting settings for comfort and usability in some cases (remember, there's an outer deadzone to reduce thumb travel, and the cross shape etched into the pad makes it so much easier to recognise which direction your thumb is on at any one time through touch alone). Hell, replace the Steam Controller's stick with a d-pad and it'd be a lot more useful, especially for fighters and games that digital input is more suited for.
Yeah, treating the dualshock model as the 'standard' basically stunted controller evolution for over a decade. Even when the last time anyone other than Nintendo or Valve try their hand at doing something different with non-VR controllers, aka Sony with the DS4, nobody has actually used the new features in any meaningful way. Fuck, the DS4 has fucking gyro and you wouldn't know it from barely any games actually using it. Valve is using the DS4's features more than Sony is, and not even on the PS4. That's fucked up.
The Steam Controller by all rights should be the dualshock's proper successor. Unfortunately, Valve had to compromise a bit because people seemingly can't comprehend playing modern games without any sticks (still an understandable compromise, but still unfortunate), but it's still the best controller for general-purpose use.
Honestly, I can deal with dual trackpads. Sticks work for analog movement, but trackpads work perfectly fine, too. I've actually been practicing with trackpad movement for kicks a bit lately, and much to my surprise movement in both third-person and first-person games is no more difficult than it is with a stick - it's just a matter of adjusting settings for comfort and usability in some cases (remember, there's an outer deadzone to reduce thumb travel, and the cross shape etched into the pad makes it so much easier to recognise which direction your thumb is on at any one time through touch alone). Hell, replace the Steam Controller's stick with a d-pad and it'd be a lot more useful, especially for fighters and games that digital input is more suited for.
Yeah, treating the dualshock model as the 'standard' basically stunted controller evolution for over a decade. Even when the last time anyone other than Nintendo or Valve try their hand at doing something different with non-VR controllers, aka Sony with the DS4, nobody has actually used the new features in any meaningful way. Fuck, the DS4 has fucking gyro and you wouldn't know it from barely any games actually using it. Valve is using the DS4's features more than Sony is, and not even on the PS4. That's fucked up.
The Steam Controller by all rights should be the dualshock's proper successor. Unfortunately, Valve had to compromise a bit because people seemingly can't comprehend playing modern games without any sticks (still an understandable compromise, but still unfortunate), but it's still the best controller for general-purpose use.
Because most games with shooting and locomotion in them now use the front hand to control direction of movement via touchpad and rotation of the controller. This has proven very successful and reducing motion sickness and giving players full control over their movement.
If you are right handed and right eye dominance you will have the right hand on the rear grip of the gun and left hand on the front. Right hand touchpad etc interacts with the weapon to change firemodes/drop mags etc. Left hand controls movement and supports the rifle.
If you hare left handed and left eye dominance you reverse all of the above and want your right hand to control movement.
Those are all the straight forward usecases, if you have cross eye dominance this gets a bit weird. Basically:
Right handed with left eye dominance means you do most actions with the right hand, shoot pistols, throw grenades, interact with the environment, but when using a rifle you will most likely use that left handed.
This makes asymmetrical controller layouts for VR a terrible idea, you want both hands to be able to interact with whatever you are holding the same way and you want both hands to be able to control the games locomotion for all hand/eye dominant combinations.
Also I don't agree that we need a stick at all, the touchpads work great for VR movement and give a lot of fine control that a stick isn't as good at, it also adds a lot of interactivity to items you hold that sticks are terrible for. More buttons I can always agree with but sticks..... eeeeh whatever.
While I think that individual finger tracking is great, especially for presence and online interaction, I think for game design the even more significant improvement compared to touch is being able to completely let go of the controller.
I'd love to use this in e.g. Raw Data today already for something like sword throws.
Candescence
Member
Seriously, being able to perform natural throwing actions without worrying about throwing the damn controller itself is going to be a godsend for motion controls.
Zalusithix
Member
Seems the packaging of the dev controller box break down the components of the controller
Looks like a different haptic system (or a combination of different haptic devices). I assume the boxy thing outside of the lower left of the shipping label area is for feedback, but the size and position don't match the sort of LRAs that are used in the Vive wands / Steam controller.
GuitarAtomik
Member
The capsense sensors are segmented around the grip so it effectively can tell how much your finger is curling around it. Really smart design.
Well, the Dataglove (the higher version of the Powerglove) is more than 30 years old, and was rated 1° of precision for fingers angles (probably closer to 5° in practice, since the optical fiber system wasn't perfect), so that's hardly new... But the tech seems nice.
Zalusithix
Member
It isn't the fact that it's analog in nature that's impressive so much as how it's obtaining the positions. Gloves using mechanical measurement such as strain gauges and the likes have been around forever. These days tracking in gloves is a given and feedback is the goal. Cameras based tracking has been around for a fair amount of time now, but is comparatively more expensive to implement from both a cost and computational perspective (more $ and increased battery use). Being able to achieve this with any reliability via simple capacitive sensors alone is rather impressive, and something I haven't seen any other consumer product do thus far.
TharpDaddy
Member
I didn't even think about that, that's going to be awesome for so many games. Even something simple like Rec Room's frisbee game will benefit massively from it.
Finger tracking will also be fantastic for something like Superhot if we gain the ability to pluck bullets out of the air with two fingers and throw them back. These controllers are going to open up so many options, I hope we see them available this year, i'd be there day 1.
Zalusithix
Member
Game wise, I know Anton, the dev of Hot Dogs, Horseshoes & Hand Grenades has been itching to get his hands on these since they were first unveiled. Given how hands-on the interaction with everything in H3VR is, there's tons of untapped potential.
If Valve is sending units out to devs now, I can't wait to see how many games are updated to officially support them by the time they get released to consumers.
If Valve is sending units out to devs now, I can't wait to see how many games are updated to officially support them by the time they get released to consumers.
Random Human
They were trying to grab your prize. They work for the mercenary. The masked man.
.
Sleeping Lesson
Member
That's physically attached to your fingers and is in no way comparable to this. The difference is huge.
sleepwalkcapsules
Member
It's not time for standarts yet.
We need fast and iterative design of vr controllers for some time, before settling down with a standard
Elfforkusu
Member
Finally.
But really, this won't be complete until I can walk into a Target and see a display that says
"Steam VR
& Knuckles"
Vigilant Walrus
Member
The reason why people want to maintain the use of analog sticks is due to conditioning and familiarity.
But there is another aspect, which is that this method of control also makes perfect sense to the current era of games we're playing.
We live in a design philosophy where "context sensitivity" rules all of 3D game design. I can think of no major first or third person 3D game where context sensitivity is not the backbone of interacting.
Context sensitivity actions is essentially controlling your character, going up to a wall and the act of pressing a context sensitive button (like A) to interacte with it. Game designs approach is context driven in this manner in everything the player does. Talking to NPCs, picking up a weapon, opening a door, kicking a crate, petting a dog. The interface pops up and up and allows the gamer to interacte with whatever the player is close to.
But this sort of interaction doesn't really make sense as we move forward, and in VR you feel the disconnect because it makes intuitively sense for us to use all of our fingers, our hands and our entire arm. It doesn't make sense to "press A" to pick up a weapon in VR.
Star Citizen is trying to do something revolutionary that is removed from everything its doing. Regardless if this game fails or succeds, it's new interaction system shows how much more immersive gaming can be if we move past the age of context sensitivity. People like to think of context sensitivity actions in meme terms like "press X to pay your respect" or "Press AA AA AAA AA A to win", but really, the nonsensical design choice of this extends to many many great games.
The interaction we need in many games is more precision. You're not pressing A to accelerate the car, you're physically aiming (looking) at the ignition, gear shift, and steering wheel, doing multiple actions to start driving.
The problem has always been to translate many of these instantaneous actions we do effortlessly in real life to the digital interactive realm without it being a slog.
But there is another aspect, which is that this method of control also makes perfect sense to the current era of games we're playing.
We live in a design philosophy where "context sensitivity" rules all of 3D game design. I can think of no major first or third person 3D game where context sensitivity is not the backbone of interacting.
Context sensitivity actions is essentially controlling your character, going up to a wall and the act of pressing a context sensitive button (like A) to interacte with it. Game designs approach is context driven in this manner in everything the player does. Talking to NPCs, picking up a weapon, opening a door, kicking a crate, petting a dog. The interface pops up and up and allows the gamer to interacte with whatever the player is close to.
But this sort of interaction doesn't really make sense as we move forward, and in VR you feel the disconnect because it makes intuitively sense for us to use all of our fingers, our hands and our entire arm. It doesn't make sense to "press A" to pick up a weapon in VR.
Star Citizen is trying to do something revolutionary that is removed from everything its doing. Regardless if this game fails or succeds, it's new interaction system shows how much more immersive gaming can be if we move past the age of context sensitivity. People like to think of context sensitivity actions in meme terms like "press X to pay your respect" or "Press AA AA AAA AA A to win", but really, the nonsensical design choice of this extends to many many great games.
The interaction we need in many games is more precision. You're not pressing A to accelerate the car, you're physically aiming (looking) at the ignition, gear shift, and steering wheel, doing multiple actions to start driving.
The problem has always been to translate many of these instantaneous actions we do effortlessly in real life to the digital interactive realm without it being a slog.
The touch can notice half curled fingers as well(though it can only track three fingers). It can even tell whether the thumb is closer to the analog stick or B and A buttons. It can feel like your actual hand when you're in the midst of things. The knuckles seem to be taking this concept to the next level, though.
Aztechnology
Member
More familiar for most people for movement. I can understand the sentiment, but yea, the trackpad is a better move.
If you look earlier in the thread, they already have a few different profiles for how to bind "legacy" games to it. Honestly, even if it never got native support I'd be tempted to pick it up just for the ability to grab/release stuff by grabbing/releasing the controller.
Wrestlemania
Banned
People like options. Sticks are a better input than a trackpad for lots of situations.
Many of which are traditional analogue movement, which for some reason many Vive owners seem to be against even though its totally acceptable as a movement method once you get used to it. I assume people who dont like it arent interested in the chances of RE7 coming to PC or will use some shitty teleportation control for Fallout 4 VR.