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Hari Seldon
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:36 PM)
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I'm reading the article now, but I admit I reflexively still defend Valve for saving PC gaming from piracy and MS buying up all of the traditional PC studios back in the OG Xbox days. It if wasn't for a ubiquitous PC gaming market we would have had to deal with GFWL nor would we have had the rise of the mid tier and indy developers on PC. It is good to have at least 1 mega company as a champion of PC gaming.
NoblesseOblige
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:37 PM)
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Originally Posted by Sho_Nuff82

Polygon's biggest gripe with the sales is apparently that they are too popular, and that we (the community) help Valve advertise and hype the sales because they're so evil.

Polygon isn't a person. This is an opinion piece by a single person.
Zoon
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:37 PM)
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They have as exclusives my most played games ( DOTA, CS) and I have about 200 other games in my library. On the other hand I have the division on uplay (which I stopped playing a long time ago) and BF3/4 on origin (that for some weird reason have to run through a separate browser). The choice is pretty easy for me.

Unless they start deleting games from my library I don't see any reason to change.

Polygon should just have made an article about the workshop artists. This is a serious issue and should have more attention.
Guess Who
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:38 PM)
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Originally Posted by patapuf

It's an article that complains that Valve makes 30% of every game sold - something which literally every digital store does, even outside the gaming industry.

It is not criticizing the fact that Valve takes a 30% cut. It is criticizing the way that, when developers try to sell on their own to get around that 30% cut, those developers are accused of being "greedy."
shandy706
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:38 PM)
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I buy my game codes/copies wherever they're cheapest on PC.

I tend to pile them all into Steam for easy access, but it hasn't been exclusive (purchase wise) for me since day one.
Dec
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Originally Posted by Human Trashcan

Ohhh I just don't get it. That is so convenient! I'm sure Valve would go bankrupt if they paid their workshop creators fairly, or even communicated openly with them about what they were entitled (which you did not address because it doesn't suit your narrative), or made transparent how much they actually sold. But they don't do any of those things, and I'm pretty sure no part of your Inside Baseball knowledge would change those facts.

I edited my post for more details. Also you being ill informed on the topic is simply true. You will never take the time to change that, but you will pop up over and over again to say your piece all the same.
PositronicMan
Junior Member
(05-16-2017, 07:39 PM)
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At some point Polygon crying wolf on their op-ed pieces leads me to disregard any future said op-ed pieces.

I had to read their op-ed on how Battlefield: Hardline was everything that is wrong with policing in America, that was enough.

I'm kinda sick of the newly minted bachelors degree in communications writers trying to be high brow with video games in society at large.

That being said, if you want to affect change in how a corporation does its business, spend your money elsewhere. It is your right as a consumer. As it is my right not to visit sites that sensationalize every bit of video game news that hits their desk.
DeviantBoi
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:39 PM)
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Four pages and no pie charts?

GAF, I'm disappointed.
Hux1ey
Banned
(05-16-2017, 07:39 PM)
I'd argue shit-posting clickbait sites like Polygon are unhealthy too.
Twentieth
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Inferno313

Guys, we get it. You don't like Polygon. Why not respond to the content of the article instead of drive-by shitposting because your best corporate friend took some criticism.

Seriously. The amount of drive-by "didn't read" posts in this thread is astonishing.

It was barely mentioned in the article, but Valve has used volunteer crowdsourced labor for translations for years. I don't truly consider it exploitation, as the article's author does, as translators work as much as they want. Most don't translate anything, after they quickly realize theres no incentive. Then, Valve employees started doing giving out Valve merchandise and promising paid positions in order to "motivate" the volunteers.
patapuf
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(05-16-2017, 07:40 PM)
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Originally Posted by Guess Who

It is not criticizing the fact that Valve takes a 30% cut. It is criticizing the way that, when developers try to sell on their own to get around that 30% cut, those developers are accused of being "greedy."

I have never seen this happen ever.

Valve even facilitates devs selling games on their own by allowing them limitless key creation for free - they take no cut from those sold keys if they are sold somewhere else than steam.
Ahasverus
Banned
(05-16-2017, 07:40 PM)

Originally Posted by Interfectum

GOG? Blizzard?

Originally Posted by TC McQueen

Don't forget GOG.

GOG is ideal, but at the same time, most publishers won't give up their DRM.
yurinka
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:40 PM)
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Good article

Originally Posted by Guess Who

It is not criticizing the fact that Valve takes a 30% cut. It is criticizing the way that, when developers try to sell on their own to get around that 30% cut, those developers are accused of being "greedy."

30% is the industry standard, most other big game shops take a same revenue share.

I think itch.io is the only place I remember where you sell it cheaper (you can even choose their revenue share), but it has a way smaller amount of players who pay for games.
Last edited by yurinka; 05-16-2017 at 07:44 PM.
BolognaOni
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:40 PM)
Out of curiosity, anyone know what percentage of Steam users have spent money on Workshop items? I'm still amazed at the amount of money they made off TF2 hats and the like, largely because spending money on that sort of thing appeals so little to me personally.
Lime
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hux1ey

I'd argue shit-posting clickbait sites like Polygon are unhealthy too.

Read the article, it outlines cases of Valve engaging in shitty business practices
Glass Shark
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by Hux1ey

I'd argue shit-posting clickbait sites like Polygon are unhealthy too.

great, cool opinion, do you have an actual comment on the content of the article?
gabbo
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:41 PM)
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Originally Posted by patapuf

GOG who constantly stops good and established indie developpers from selling on their store is better for small devs?

And there is nowhere but steam for modders to earn money. Valve are the only ones even paying out money to modders.

Yes, that same GOG. They may not allow everything on the store, but any game that does get on will be more visible and promoted more.

Modders shouldn't be looking to make money in the first place, Valve was one of the ones responsible for pushing that idea to begin with. I'm sure the terms for mods are similar to workshops mentioned in the article.
Wowfunhappy
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:41 PM)
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This article perfectly sums up everything that has pissed me off about Valve and Steam for years.

I hope people don't ignore it because it's on Polygon. If it helps, it was written by a guest writer.
finalflame
Banned
(05-16-2017, 07:42 PM)

Originally Posted by Hux1ey

I'd argue shit-posting clickbait sites like Polygon are unhealthy too.

Bingo. Let's not forget the author is particularly focused on clickbaiting.
ghostjoke
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:43 PM)
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Polygon's ability, regardless of writer, to present a serious topic and points I agree with in a way that makes my eyes roll is outstanding. Focus dammit.

The problem is that other than GOG, I'm far more willing to support Valve than the competition. Even then, there's are features for smaller devs I appreciate in Steam that GOG doesn't allow. In the grand scheme of messed up aggressive capitalistic enterprises, Valve are the lesser of crap. This might be a low bar, but I'm afraid to imagine what EA, Ubi, or God forbid Microsoft would do in Valve's position. Pretty sure PC gaming would be dead in their hands.
Last edited by ghostjoke; 05-16-2017 at 08:02 PM.
GregLombardi
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:43 PM)
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They did amazing things for the world of PC gaming.

Then they took their money and became confused, not allowing anyone into their inner circle or realizing that sometimes, a very good organizational structure can handle the business challenges of such a popular platform better than chaotic theories about what a workplace should and shouldn't be.

This, at least, is my view of the situation from the outside looking in. Obviously some of the internal stuff that has leaked out has informed that view, but I do not know anything specific other than that I think they have made so much money that they do not know what they are doing anymore. DOTA 2 is my prime example of this, where the game continues to suffer on every level except the "balanced game + play this game competitively" stage, thus ruining one of my favorite games of all time.
Ploid 3.0
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:43 PM)
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Amazon should just do it. Make a store front for PC games directly. Amazon customer service is god like. EA can only admire their CS from a distance while Steam is under dirt being a vampire that only wakes up once every 2,000 years or something. Amazon also have the servers.

Oh, wait aren't Amazon doing something with Twitch on buying games? Or is that just the normal shipping games, and giving out codes to unlock games on Origin, GOG, Steam, and such?
TheRed
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:44 PM)
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Valve has been great to me personally, making and supporting games I love. Pushing for VR progression which I love and enjoy. Steam controller functionality which I love and has changed gaming for the better to me, and many more positives have come from steam. Attracting Japanese developers to the PC platform has even been a great benefit to me.

Just because you might not fall into the groups that like what they're doing doesn't make them more evil than any of the other major players in video games.

They are being really bad to those workshop creators in Dota. They should be taken to task for that any time, fuck that shit. If it was possible to just go on strike effectively they should all stop making stuff for them.
Gentleman Jack
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by BolognaOni

Out of curiosity, anyone know what percentage of Steam users have spent money on Workshop items? I'm still amazed at the amount of money they made off TF2 hats and the like, largely because spending money on that sort of thing appeals so little to me personally.

Pretty sure 100% of new TF2 items as of a few years ago are all Workshop items. The last Dota 2 Compendium I also believe was entirely workshop items. So a shitload of money goes into it, but outside of individual creators revealing their own incomes we don't have good numbers on the % of Steam members who spend on it.
I think part of the appeal is that if you're lucky or a good trader, you can actually make money off rare items. I wouldn't expect to pay rent on it, but as far as F2P monetization schemes go, the secondary market (+ the amount Blizzard skims of the top) is big bucks all around.
patapuf
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:45 PM)
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Originally Posted by gabbo

Yes, that same GOG. They may not allow everything on the store, but any game that does get on will be more visible and promoted more.

Modders shouldn't be looking to make money in the first place, Valve was one of the ones responsible for pushing that idea to begin with. I'm sure the terms for mods are similar to workshops mentioned in the article.

Lol. Do you know how much work modders put in their stuff?

and GOG is really great for the few that make it in. all the devs that are out - not so much. Really great for devs, that policy.
Wowfunhappy
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by patapuf

Valve even facilitates devs selling games on their own by allowing them limitless key creation for free - they take no cut from those sold keys if they are sold somewhere else than steam.

And why do they do that?

Because anyone who buys one of those Steam keys will be forced to keep using Steam. And once Steam is installed, the most easy to access Storefront will always be the one that's built into the client.

"Sure, I won't charge a commission, as long as you give me free advertising." There's nothing wrong with the practice in particular, but Valve isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart.
The Wart
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:46 PM)
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The level of entitlement people in this thread are exhibiting over their consumer entertainment products is pretty baffling. Don't like Steam? Don't use it. Don't like the cut you get on workshop goods? Don't make them. Valve created a digital marketplace that provides a tremendous amount of value to a lot of people, and has made a lot of people a lot of money. The idea that they have an obligation to give a certain amount of that money to e.g. people who make workshop hats is absurd unless at some point ever Valve made some concrete commitment to pay them a certain amount.

Honestly at what point in the history of mankind has anyone even contemplated making a living wage off of selling hats you wear in a videogame? The fact that this is conceivable is due to the system Valve built. And yeah, that means they get to profit from it, so long as they are not engaging in any coercive behavior. And no, no one is being "coerced" into buying a videogame. Housing, food, healthcare, transportation? Sure, let's talk about the necessary rules and regulations we need to ensure that as many people as possible have access to those basic necessities. Access to videogames, and revenue from creating content for a videogame you don't own, is not a basic necessity.

Originally Posted by Wowfunhappy

"Sure, I won't charge a commission, as long as you give me free advertising." There's nothing wrong with the practice in particular, but Valve isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

Valve does not have a heart or intentions. The people who work at Valve probably have a wide range of attitudes from idealistic to mercenary. But why does any of this matter at all?
Last edited by The Wart; 05-16-2017 at 07:49 PM.
Twentieth
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(05-16-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by finalflame

Bingo. Let's not forget the author is particularly focused on clickbaiting.

The author has a whole website dedicated to satirical articles. Does that mean everything he writes anywhere is clickbait? Think critically for a second.
AEdouard
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:46 PM)
Oh well, surprised this isn't a Kuchera piece.
Buggy Loop
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(05-16-2017, 07:46 PM)
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If Valve is not our friend, does that make Sony, Microsoft & Nintendo on the console side as enemies? Cause they're far worst.
Inferno313
Tell me about Bane!
(05-16-2017, 07:46 PM)
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Originally Posted by finalflame

Bingo. Let's not forget the author is particularly focused on clickbaiting.

Did you read the patreon description past the title?

This thread is about the article in the OP, not the author or website's other works. Respond to that.

This thread is fucking outlandish.
Vincent Alexander
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:47 PM)
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I feel bad reading this article...I was one of those people who was shitty about Battlefield 3 requiring Origin. Looking back on it...it was mostly a stupid, zealoud devotion to Steam and hating anything that wasn't. Now...Origin was pretty bad back then, but not THAT bad.

Originally Posted by Twentieth

Seriously. The amount of drive-by "didn't read" posts in this thread is astonishing.

Yep.

Originally Posted by finalflame

Bingo. Let's not forget the author is particularly focused on clickbaiting.

I'll forget, because I'd rather judge this article by itself, and it is a good one.
finalflame
Banned
(05-16-2017, 07:47 PM)

Originally Posted by Twentieth

The author has a whole website dedicated to satirical articles. Does that mean everything he writes anywhere is clickbait? Think critically for a second.

No, but let's not pretend the tone and "subject" of this article isn't designed to generate clicks for Polygon. Even though he's taking on a topic worth discussing, the way he does it is very, very sensationalist and presumptuous. That's all.
FinaruDensetsu
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:47 PM)
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I think an article on the competitors and how they've half-assed things would have been more helpful. Out of all of the competitors, the only one I see that is really trying to innovate and compete is GOG and they are hamstrung by resources.

Why haven't companies like EA and MS and Ubi which are all humongous corporations implemented things like workshops, nigh unlimited key generation for creators, etc. etc.?

The article's main thrust even seems to be that Valve isn't really doing anything anti-competitive as a so-called "monopoly", and that rather it is the consumers who make Valve/Steam a monopoly. That's not what a monopoly is, that's called consumer preference. If the competitors actually provided a more compelling product, then consumers would move over there, thereby destroying the "monopoly", as long as there are no external anti-competitive actions by the corporations.
Last edited by FinaruDensetsu; 05-16-2017 at 07:50 PM.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
(05-16-2017, 07:47 PM)
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Never would have i guessed that i would live long enough to see people come to grips with what Valve and Steam have done. Too late to do anything about it now though.
randomengine
Banned
(05-16-2017, 07:47 PM)
Finally someone other than me had the fucking balls to say it!
Marcel
Banned
(05-16-2017, 07:47 PM)

Originally Posted by Ploid 3.0

Amazon should just do it. Make a store front for PC games directly. Amazon customer service is god like. EA can only admire their CS from a distance while Steam is under dirt being a vampire that only wakes up once every 2,000 years or something. Amazon also have the servers.

Amazon should invest in some new UI designers for this imaginary Amazon PC client then because the design of their other apps are usually boring as hell. All you can say in the positive is that they are functional and that's about it.

At least Steam has a 'look'.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by NoblesseOblige

Polygon isn't a person. This is an opinion piece by a single person.

Polygon is garbage and that person is just another symptom.
Wowfunhappy
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(05-16-2017, 07:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by water_wendi

Never would have i guessed that i would live long enough to see people come to grips with what Valve and Steam have done. Too late to do anything about it now though.

If this thread is any indication, most people are still in denial.
Dierce
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(05-16-2017, 07:48 PM)
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I'm considering buying more games from GOG. I rarely ever buy from Steam anymore, they single handedly ruined the resale PC game market.
Inferno313
Tell me about Bane!
(05-16-2017, 07:48 PM)
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Originally Posted by Buggy Loop

If Valve is not our friend, does that make Sony, Microsoft & Nintendo on the console side as enemies? Cause they're far worst.

Stop with the us vs them fanboyisms. None of them are your friends. They're all businesses that are ultimately focused on making money.
orava
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by patapuf

It's an article that complains that Valve makes 30% of every game sold - something which literally every digital store does, even outside the gaming industry.

There's a few good points hidden in a wash of hyperbole.

Claiming Steam is not healthy for gaming being the most hilarious one.




The claim was that this is good for small devs. Explain me how it is?

Nothing stops submitting your game to gog. They have their own program for it.

https://www.gog.com/indie

If your game quality is high enough, you can get your game to the store. Proper curation keeps those shitty "first unity projects" and quick cash grabs out. Your game is easier to find from the smaller library and buyers know that the quality is at least in acceptable levels.
woxel1
kind of like a pixel,
made of wax
(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Buggy Loop

If Valve is not our friend, does that make Sony, Microsoft & Nintendo on the console side as enemies? Cause they're far worst.

They make games though.
patapuf
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(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Wowfunhappy

And why do they do that?

Because anyone who buys one of those Steam keys will be forced to keep using Steam. And once Steam is installed, the most easy to access Storefront will always be the one that's built into the client.

"Sure, I won't charge a commission, as long as you give me free advertising." There's nothing wrong with the practice in particular, but Valve isn't doing it out of the goodness of their heart.

I'm not saying they are. But the policy is so beneficial to all involved (store, consumer and dev) that it's now pretty much standard on PC.
Hello? This is Hailun!
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by jrh2

read the article and try again please

When did Valve start hiring poor people on 1099s?
Air Zombie Meat
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Clickbait has become such an empty criticism. "Not gonna read, it's clickbait!" How the hell would you know unless you read it.
lokeloski
Junior Member
(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by Twentieth

It was barely mentioned in the article, but Valve has used volunteer crowdsourced labor for translations for years. I don't truly consider it exploitation, as the article's author does, as translators work as much as they want. Most don't translate anything, after they quickly realize theres no incentive. Then, Valve employees started doing giving out Valve merchandise and promising paid positions in order to "motivate" the volunteers.

As a professional translator in the industry, this story on reddit still makes me mad to this day.
The first time I read it was the day I realized Valve wasn't that "cool company helping the industry" most people think.
Nowadays I do my best to buy games straight from the devs.
PSqueak
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(05-16-2017, 07:49 PM)
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Originally Posted by ElBoxyBrown

I am your friend.

That's still not good. Valve does not have incentives to ever improve.

Well, but that's neither the consumer's or Valves fault, but said competing platforms failing to offer a better alternative for the consumers to be able to say "fuck you valve".
Spukc
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(05-16-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Originally Posted by Inferno313

Stop with the us vs them fanboyisms. None of them are your friends. They're all businesses that are ultimately focused on making money.

Bull

Microsoft once send me an happy birthday email
collige
Member
(05-16-2017, 07:50 PM)
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Valve deserves 100% of the shit thrown at them regarding the workshop changes and general financial exploitation of the labor of their userbase. The whole translation/transphobia debacle, though not over yet due to the lawsuit, relfected extremely poorly on them. That said, the article is overall poorly written, is filled with stupid analogies, and glossed over all of the many, many good things they do for consumers. I think the best comparison is to Google rather than a truly dumster tier company like Uber.
Last edited by collige; 05-16-2017 at 07:54 PM.

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