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Sonic Mania and the future of the franchise

M

Mark1

Member
The game seems to be a hit amongst gamers, especially with its' rave reviews and positive responses thus far. Very keen to see how sales of this will turn out.

But what makes this so amazing, this is the same franchise which has also seen some very poorly received titles. No one back then would've believed that Sonic would ever get back to having good to great games anymore, and yet here we are.

Colours and Generations started an upward trend of seeing decent Sonic games again, Forces looks to be following that trend of good games (despite some do it's odd design decisions). People have their opinions of these games but ultimately they're still good.

Will we see this continue in an upward trend of seeing great Sonic games again? Or will Mania be seen as a blip?

Don't make this a classic vs modern war. Respect other opinions of the franchise
 
W

wwm0nkey

Member
They will probably split the releases. More Mania games that take place apart from new 3D ones, but I 100% new games in both 2D and 3D
 
C

Chao

Member
I just hope they will let the team make another Sonic Mania, be it with remixed levels or, even better, entirely new ones.

I fully trust them going forward, Sonic Mania is excellent.
 
K

KZXcellent

Member
What I'd like to see is this.

3D Modern Sonic continues to be alright. Sonic Team busts out more games with a mix of gameplay including it's iconic Boost Style levels thrown in. Complete with silly stories.

2D Classic Sonic continues with the team from Sonic Mania. Satisfies old fans that haven't gotten much up until Mania's release.

Having two separate Sonic series being made would make me very happy and satisfy both sides of the fence.
 
P

Phediuk

Member
I want two things for the next one:

1. All-new levels. No remixes.
2. Playable Amy, in her Sonic CD incarnation. Some mods have already done this for the classic series and I'd like to see it in an official game.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
KZXcellent said:
What I'd like to see is this.

3D Modern Sonic continues to be alright. Sonic Team busts out more games with a mix of gameplay including it's iconic Boost Style levels thrown in. Complete with silly stories.

2D Classic Sonic continues with the team from Sonic Mania. Satisfies old fans that haven't gotten much up until Mania's release.

Having two separate Sonic series being made would make me very happy and satisfy both sides of the fence.
Click to expand...
I agree. It's the perfect solution especially since many fans are split. It's been an issue for Sonic Team for years but now they have the Mania team to work on classic 2D games so they don't have to.

1. All-new levels. No remixes.
Click to expand...
I've thought about that. I'd like to see more entirely new levels but I think the remixes add a lot to the game since it constantly messes with expectations in fun ways.
 
W

Waggles

Member
we need a 2D revitalization in the same artstyle as the animation accompanying Sonic Mania.

Something like Ubi did for Rayman but, you know, Sonic.
 
V

Village

Member
I'm not gonna say probably because Sega is a variable that is unpredictable ever present and always changing.

But eh, just make a bunch of different types of sonic games with different characters in it , by different folks, not just sega. Expand the brand and what it can be, focus those games to be for specific audiences while catering to others with other things.

That would be the smart thing
 
M

Mesoian

Member
Village said:
I'm not gonna say probably because Sega is a variable that is unpredictable ever present and always changing.

But eh, just make a bunch of different types of sonic games with different characters in it , by different folks, not just sega. Expand the brand and what it can be, focus those games to be for specific audiences while catering to others with other things.

That would be the smart thing
Click to expand...

This is literally how we got Sonic Boom.
 
V

Village

Member
Mesoian said:
This is literally how we got Sonic Boom.
Click to expand...

I don't hate sonic boom.

I don't hate the idea of sonic boom

I just hate how knuckles looks, I hate shadow's attitude in it, and I think the wii u game is shitty. And that can and has been explained by sega meddling.

So yeah, I don't mind other sonic " universes being created". Strait up, i'll keep saying this, I'll pay cash for a cheesy as fuck character action game with shadow by platinum.

So I actually want them to do more stuff, just stop meddling too much and ruining games by turning projects into other projects.
 
D

Dead End Irony

Member
Give the Mania team more time, money, resources, etc. All new levels in a sequel.
Bring back Press Garden though

I imagine Sonic Team (Unleashed, Generations, Forces) will continue to play it safe with the boost engine and make short C to B tier level games.

Dream scenario? They take the vibe of Sonic Mania and make a 3D game that's 90s as hell w/Sonic Mania love and quality. They'd just need to put together a team to pull it off.
 
L

Leafhopper

Banned
Unless Sega changes you won't get Mania again or if you do it will be later. Even when they had stuff that worked with 3D Sonic they changed it for some reason.
Mesoian said:
This is literally how we got Sonic Boom.
Click to expand...

We got Sonic Boom because it's a licensed game to go along with a cartoon. The point of the game was to supplement the cartoon.
 
M

Mesoian

Member
Leafhopper said:
Unless Sega changes you won't get Mania again or if you do it will be later. Even when they had stuff that worked with 3D Sonic they changed it for some reason.


We got Sonic Boom because it's a licensed game to go along with a cartoon. The point of the game was to supplement the cartoon.
Click to expand...

Which falls well within what the poster said.

But eh, just make a bunch of different types of sonic games with different characters in it , by different folks, not just sega. Expand the brand and what it can be, focus those games to be for specific audiences while catering to others with other things.
Click to expand...

Honestly, one of the biggest problems the sonic franchise has is that the mistakes and triumphs from failures and successes aren't adopted by the new blood charged with keeping things relevant. New people come in, try and reinvent the wheel, fail, fail again, fail harder, find something that works as a half measure and then finally put out a halfway decent game that people don't hate, but no one is losing their mind over, then those people leave and it all starts up again.

Sonic needs a Yuji Naka, someone with enough experience and vision to deliver a consistent experience across multiple games. At this point, I think it has to be Whitehead.
 
I

IronicSonic

Member
wwm0nkey said:
They will probably split the releases. More Mania games that take place apart from new 3D ones, but I 100% new games in both 2D and 3D
Click to expand...

I think this is a safe bet, in the short term at least.

I can see Mania Team handling another beloved Sega legacy IPs though, like Nights o even Street of Rage.
 
D

Damn Silly

Member
I mean, who knows what Sonic Team will turn out.

But I imagine going forward, we could get 2D Sonics done by the Mania team (whether a Mania 2 with more mixtures between new and remixed zones or a "Sonic 5" with entirely new zones) and Sonic Team handling 3D titles, for better or worse. Maybe the occasional spin-off like another Sonic Racing or maybe something like a Sonic football game akin to Mario Strikers.
 
A

Android18a

Member
KZXcellent said:
What I'd like to see is this.

3D Modern Sonic continues to be alright. Sonic Team busts out more games with a mix of gameplay including it's iconic Boost Style levels thrown in. Complete with silly stories.

2D Classic Sonic continues with the team from Sonic Mania. Satisfies old fans that haven't gotten much up until Mania's release.

Having two separate Sonic series being made would make me very happy and satisfy both sides of the fence.
Click to expand...

This. 3D Sonic can continue being experimental and trying new stuff (even if it often doesn't work so well), whilst those of us who grew up with the 2D games can keep playing the stuff we love.
 
L

Linkstrikesback

Member
Leafhopper said:
Unless Sega changes you won't get Mania again or if you do it will be later. Even when they had stuff that worked with 3D Sonic they changed it for some reason.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. If Christian Whitehead and co put another proposal in to Sega for a Sonic Mania 2, I'm 100% sure they'll take the offer. This is his 4th released sonic project in a 6 year+ long collaboration with Sega, they won't change it now.
 
V

Village

Member
Leafhopper said:
Unless Sega changes you won't get Mania again or if you do it will be later.
Click to expand...

This is the fear I expressed in he sonic ot, to keep it short

I cant feel happy about mania, because sega hasn't changed, and they are still in charge. And forces looks to be more of the same, an inability to make decisions or to be confnident in decisions and choices and thus mashing things together. Along with an in ability to understand or strait up willful ignorance of how to internalize criticism properly.

I feel like people felt this way when colors and generations came out, just to be dissapointed by lost world and ROL .

Except that disappointment might be in a few months.

And whats worse is, if they don't understand how to internalize criticism still they might fuck up your 2d games too.

I'm weary
 
M

Mesoian

Member
Linkstrikesback said:
I don't agree. If Christian Whitehead and co put another proposal in to Sega for a Sonic Mania 2, I'm 100% sure they'll take the offer. This is his 4th released sonic project in a 6 year+ long collaboration with Sega, they won't change it now.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if Mania breaks 500k, which seems almost assured at this point, we'll almost definitely be seeing Mania 2 in 2019.
 
L

Leafhopper

Banned
Linkstrikesback said:
I don't agree. If Christian Whitehead and co put another proposal in to Sega for a Sonic Mania 2, I'm 100% sure they'll take the offer. This is his 4th released sonic project in a 6 year+ long collaboration with Sega, they won't change it now.
Click to expand...

Sure it can happen, I just think Sega is weird as a company and sometimes just look away when they have something good. They did it before. However you are right, I forgot how many things they did put out now for Sega in such a short period.

Village said:
This is the fear I expressed in he sonic ot, to keep it short

I cant feel happy about mania, because sega hasn't changed, and they are still in charge. And forces looks to be more of the same, an inability to make decisions or to be confnident in decisions and choices and thus mashing things together. Along with an in ability to understand or strait up willful ignorance of how to internalize criticism properly.

I feel like people felt this way when colors and generations came out, just to be dissapointed by lost world and ROL .

Except that disappointment might be in a few months.

And whats worse is, if they don't understand how to internalize criticism still they might fuck up your 2d games too.

I'm weary
Click to expand...
The bolded is certainly me.
 
F

FN-2187

Member
Please just let the Sonic Mania team continue to make new 2D games every few years.

Also, maybe let that exact team resurrect any other dead Sega platformers they are passionate about. New Monster World, Shinobi, Ristar, Tempo, Clockwork Knight, Castle/World of Illusion?
 
M

Mesoian

Member
Village said:
This is the fear I expressed in he sonic ot, to keep it short

I cant feel happy about mania, because sega hasn't changed, and they are still in charge. And forces looks to be more of the same, an inability to make decisions or to be confnident in decisions and choices and thus mashing things together. Along with an in ability to understand or strait up willful ignorance of how to internalize criticism properly.

I feel like people felt this way when colors and generations came out, just to be dissapointed by lost world and ROL .

Except that disappointment might be in a few months.

And whats worse is, if they don't understand how to internalize criticism still they might fuck up your 2d games too.

I'm weary
Click to expand...

One of the craziest things about this whole development is how the opinions of Sega of America and Sega of Japan have flipped over the years. Back in the Genesis days, Sega of Japan were the ones who HATED the idea of a super serious gritty Sonic game with lots of characters and a complex story while Sega of America was pushing that hard, trying to get games based on the archie comics made.

They've basically switched places.
 
M

moltonasty

Member
Leafhopper said:
Unless Sega changes you won't get Mania again or if you do it will be later. Even when they had stuff that worked with 3D Sonic they changed it for some reason.
Click to expand...

IDK, they're a business after all..if Mania sells well I don't see why they wouldn't have the same team back? It was probably relatively cheap to make too.
 
P

Piers

Member
They'll probably outsource the level design for the next 3D Sonic to Pagoda West/Headcannon/etc and give them zero input on the physics or handling of Sonic, thus missing the point on why Mania was so loved.
 
L

Leafhopper

Banned
moltonasty said:
IDK, they're a business after all..if Mania sells well I don't see why they wouldn't have the same team back? It was probably relatively cheap to make too.
Click to expand...

That's very true but Generations and Colors did well for them as well and then they changed it for some odd reason.

Though in this case with Mania it was probably cheaper for them so who knows.

Piers said:
They'll probably outsource the level design for the next 3D Sonic to Pagoda West/Headcannon/etc and give them zero input on the physics or handling of Sonic, thus missing the point on why Mania was so loved.
Click to expand...

:(
 
V

Village

Member
Mesoian said:
Sonic needs a Yuji Naka, someone with enough experience and vision to deliver a consistent experience across multiple games. At this point, I think it has to be Whitehead.
Click to expand...

I think that's false

You don't need this, one because Yuji Naka is also responsible for some games people don't so much.

But two, more importantly, they don't need constant experiences across multiple games, they need consistent types of game.

You wanna make a boost ass3d sonic game, that's cool. Just make it that, and just that. Wanna make a spin off mech game staring tails where he creates mechs and you fight em, or like a tails myster adventure game. Go for it, just make it just that. Wanna make a cheesy character action games with bizarre tone shifts into camp like yakuza staring shadow. Fuck it i'll buy it.

Just keep each thing in its lane. Not every sonic game has to be for everybody, But each game can be for a different person, and that's ok.

.
 
1

13ruce

Banned
It's funny they now go full into the memes and deviantart side of Sonic with the 3D games.

It's like Sonic is gotta go fast meme stick with them too much. Sonic was about platforming and momentum sure there was speed but you could also explore the stages and take different paths etc.

Now it's just pure boosting and gotta go fast lol + all the memes and they finally outdid even shadow with the Infinity Edgelord.

Why can't they translate the classic core gameplay into 3D? Mario did it right and succeeded who knows what would have happened if Sega did the same, Sonic might have been huge still like the old days.

I grow up with modern sonic and the good games sure are good or great but they should fully translate the classic gameplay in 3D the boost stuff and gotta go fast thing was fun for a couple of times but it's so mindless. Hopefully after Forces they finally learn it with Mania doing so well, i doubt it tho. They really have to shake things up for 3D sonic.

If mario can do it why not sonic?
 
V

Village

Member
Mesoian said:
One of the craziest things about this whole development is how the opinions of Sega of America and Sega of Japan have flipped over the years. Back in the Genesis days, Sega of Japan were the ones who HATED the idea of a super serious gritty Sonic game with lots of characters and a complex story while Sega of America was pushing that hard, trying to get games based on the archie comics made.

They've basically switched places.
Click to expand...

I don't mind serious sonic stories. Or " serious" Shadows my favorite characters, and while... a large majority of sonic comics are dookie. And Some of them I feel if were widly known to the public could be more brand damaging than things like sonic 06. The recent less bad ones were good and cool, and had serious stories where characters took themselves seriously. They weren't overily serious , but I don't mind serious sonic stories. I'm totally ok with that.

I like that sega is going back to weird japanese edgy animu stories. Its just that forces doesn't look like its doing that with sincerity that requires. It just looks like artistically bankrupt amalgamation of all things sonic

Hopefully its good
 
M

moltonasty

Member
13ruce said:
It's funny they now go full into the memes and deviantart side of Sonic with the 3D games.

It's like Sonic is gotta go fast meme stick with them too much. Sonic was about platforming and momentum sure there was speed but you could also explore the stages and take different paths etc.

Now it's just pure boosting and gotta go fast lol + all the memes and they finally outdid even shadow with the Infinity Edgelord.

Why can't they translate the classic core gameplay into 3D? Mario did it right and succeeded who knows what would have happened if Sega did the same, Sonic might have been huge still like the old days.

I grow up with modern sonic and the good games sure are good or great but they should fully translate the classic gameplay in 3D the boost stuff and gotta go fast thing was fun for a couple of times but it's so mindless. Hopefully after Forces they finally learn it with Mania doing so well, i doubt it tho. They really have to shake things up for 3D sonic.

If mario can do it why not sonic?
Click to expand...

I thought Sonic Lost World was going to be the moment classic Sonic went to 3D successfully. They kind of brought back the classic art style and the focus on platforming/parkour over speed seemed promising. But it just wasn't that fun..

And with Forces it seems like they just said "fuck it" for even attempting to bring the classic Sonic vibe into 3D...just full steam ahead with boost mode.
 
Shang

Shang

Member
Hopefully--

Pagoda West/Whitehead/Headcannon work on new 2D Sonics from time to time, hopefully they start to be animated like Mania's intro (please! get Yotta to help! I love them!)

Sonic Team, now free of the shackles of trying to appease both 2D and 3D Sonic fans, can now focus and fine-tuning and making 3D Sonic finally excellent in its own right.

If all goes like it should, Sonic Forces should be the last kind of shitty Sonic for a while.
 
M

Maedhros

Member
13ruce said:
It's funny they now go full into the memes and deviantart side of Sonic with the 3D games.

It's like Sonic is gotta go fast meme stick with them too much. Sonic was about platforming and momentum sure there was speed but you could also explore the stages and take different paths etc.

Now it's just pure boosting and gotta go fast lol + all the memes and they finally outdid even shadow with the Infinity Edgelord.

Why can't they translate the classic core gameplay into 3D? Mario did it right and succeeded who knows what would have happened if Sega did the same, Sonic might have been huge still like the old days.

I grow up with modern sonic and the good games sure are good or great but they should fully translate the classic gameplay in 3D the boost stuff and gotta go fast thing was fun for a couple of times but it's so mindless. Hopefully after Forces they finally learn it with Mania doing so well, i doubt it tho. They really have to shake things up for 3D sonic.

If mario can do it why not sonic?
Click to expand...

Making a Sonic game in 3D and not using the speed element would simply suck. And it's harder to make Sonic in 3D than Mario in 3D. They are so different types of gameplay.

I don't feel that even Generations, my favorite 3D Sonic, got it right at all. It's different and I like it for what it is, but it's not what most people really want from Sonic in 3D at all.

I can't even imagine what it would be to have Sonic in 3D with the same design as 2D games... And before anyone says it, I don't agree that Sonic Utopia is what the series should go for.
 
B

Berordn

Member
moltonasty said:
I thought Sonic Lost World was going to be the moment classic Sonic went to 3D successfully. They kind of brought back the classic art style and the focus on platforming/parkour over speed seemed promising. But it just wasn't that fun..

And with Forces it seems like they just said "fuck it" for even attempting to bring the classic Sonic vibe into 3D...just full steam ahead with boost mode.
Click to expand...

Lost World being very experimental with level design made it clear they were still trying to figure out what worked and what didn't (especially when you had that whole extra world of neat concepts that ended up going unused in the main game). They were very much onto something, they just needed to figure out what didn't work (tube levels, unnecessary bloat with the kick button) and get the rest of the game up to par.

But being Sonic Team they were more eager to throw it out and go back to what they know makes money.
 
M

Mr. Smiley

Member
I feel like the most we could possibly see is Sonic Team hitting the panic button and the next 3D sonic makes the same mistakes but in a different aesthetic.
 
T

TheOfficeMut

Unconfirmed Member
I have yet to play Sonic Mania but I have played Sonic 1 - 3/K hundreds of times and I think what I like most about those games is the simplicity in gameplay, as well as the silent storytelling. Sonic 3 & Knuckles told such a straightforward story just through character sprite animations. I'll never forget Knuckles being shocked by Robotnik when latching onto the great emerald. It didn't feel like they hamfisted a story into the game, despite there clearly being one. The story didn't get in the way of me enjoying actually playing the game.

Also one of my favorite things about the older 2D games is the music. The god damn music. I really hope Sonic Mania has tracks even remotely close to the quality of Hydrocity, Lava Reef, and the credit music after the last fight in Sonic 3.
 
P

PhantomThief

Banned
Sonic Mania gives me hope for the future of Sonic. Having played all the original classics on my Megadrive ( or Genesis ) I'm VERY happy with how this game turned out. I didn't look at any leaks and barely saw gameplay beforehand, but enough to know what I was getting.

This game blew me away and might sit right up there next to Sonic & Knuckles 3 as my fav Sonic game.

Having only briefly played Generations, which I thought was okay I'm really not interested in more 3d Sonic.

I do hope that SEGA gives us a decent Streets of Rage now as well.

There is already a great fan edit of all the Streets of Rage games out ( V5 ), so maybe they can hire some of those guys and gals.
 
1

13ruce

Banned
moltonasty said:
I thought Sonic Lost World was going to be the moment classic Sonic went to 3D successfully. They kind of brought back the classic art style and the focus on platforming/parkour over speed seemed promising. But it just wasn't that fun..

And with Forces it seems like they just said "fuck it" for even attempting to bring the classic Sonic vibe into 3D...just full steam ahead with boost mode.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's why i liked lost world quite a bit it was not perfect yet but it had a Mario Galaxy like vibe to it.

Maedhros said:
Making a Sonic game in 3D and not using the speed element would simply suck. And it's harder to make Sonic in 3D than Mario in 3D. They are so different types of gameplay.

I don't feel that even Generations, my favorite 3D Sonic, got it right at all. It's different and I like it for what it is, but it's not what most people really want from Sonic in 3D at all.

I can't even imagine what it would be to have Sonic in 3D with the same design as 2D games... And before anyone says it, I don't agree that Sonic Utopia is what the series should go for.
Click to expand...

Speed should be kept but there should be more things to the gameplay with the recent modern sonic games speeds seems to be the only focus that and homing on enemies. I prefer that there would be different paths etc and a bit of quick platforming. I liked what sonic lost world did but even that game was not quite good enough yet but it was something new compared to unleashed and generations boost only gameplay it felts a bit Mario Galaxy like.

I highly enjoyed Colours, Unleashed, Lost World, the advance games, Generations and even Black Knight lol.

But i feel like they should innovate again so that there is more then just speed and homing on enemies. I will probably even enjoy Forces but it's sad that gameplay is entirely focused on speed + homing on enemies.
 
V

Village

Member
Mr. Smiley said:
I feel like the most we could possibly see is Sonic Team hitting the panic button and the next 3D sonic makes the same mistakes but in a different aesthetic.
Click to expand...

Well the 3d panic button is ... well

sonic_adventure_3_logo_by_nuryrush-da3jk6k.png
Click to expand...

That is quite literally we have given up, that's full on. Nostalgia mining, we don't care about the cost of this undertaking we need some money. Whether it plays like it , is another story, but the name would get people talking. Remember when they annouced Sonic 4, and people were like " holyshit sonic 4" they fucked that up, sonic had to be a maniac before he could go back to 2d numbers. But that's the button, that's their " ff7 remake button"
 
cireza

cireza

Member
If Sonic Mania sells well, you can be sure that Sega will go the safe route and order an other game in the same style.

That's what any publisher nowadays would do. Zero risk, something works, milk it to death.
 
J

jman2050

Member
I think regardless of whether Mania gets a true follow-up its success reminds people of what made Sonic such a beloved icon in the first place. Just inspiring some goodwill in a franchise that had been on such a backslide for a long time despite games like Generations showing that good games could still be made is a positive development through and through.

Also hopefully the "Sonic was never good" nonsense that built up steam over the past several years is completely dead and buried forever this time.
 
E

Exodust

Banned
Honestly it's time to get rid of Iizuka or whatever his fucking name is and have the ironically named Sonic Team have nothing to do with Sonic. They've shown time and time again they don't really want to work on Sonic as they always want to play with new gimmicks that don't fit the character. The series became a laughing stock because of them.

Have the Mania team work on more 2D games(a full fledged physical release with all new zones and a bit longer play time to justify the price would be cool) and figure out what to do with 3D with another team. A new team that's willing to design a blueprint and make a few games using it to better understand what they're going for instead of throwing the baby with the bathwater each time like ST keeps doing.

Sonic Mania being critically acclaimed and received well by fans should be a wake up call. Generations is well liked for the most part but didn't reach the Mania fever that's been going around lately, and Generations itself still has baffling problems(looking at you, Time Eater and Perfect Chaos boss fights).

I know there's some fans who loved some of the games from the aughts and onwards. And some on here who are looking forward to Forces. But I'd imagine they wouldn't give up on the series if it gets a big shake up when it comes to the 3D games from another team while we get more Manias.

This post was made under the impression that we would get more Manias. No matter the great word of mouth or possible successful sales I still don't trust we will. Somehow getting a Sonic game without apparent flaws(with the only criticism being that there aren't enough new stages, which is great if that's the only criticism) is amazing. And seeing how Sonic Team is following Generations with Forces, a game that is making some horrifying decisions, I can't under good faith trust ST to deliver anything I'd want.

Hopefully there is a sequel to Mania made by the same team. And hopefully a big shake up happens at Sonic Team to allow the series to move in a better direction.
 
SinCityAssassin

SinCityAssassin

Member
dark10x said:
I've thought about that. I'd like to see more entirely new levels but I think the remixes add a lot to the game since it constantly messes with expectations in fun ways.
Click to expand...

I mean it's the sort of thing that sort of only works once. A sequel would probably have to build off a lot more on its own design.
 
V

Village

Member
jman2050 said:
Also hopefully the "Sonic was never good" nonsense that built up steam over the past several years is completely dead and buried forever this time.
Click to expand...

People talking shit about mania, people gonna talk more shit when forces comes out.

They will still talk shit, they will always talk shit. Sega has to ignore them and try to get to the actual useful critcisms
 
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