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Why Sonic the Hedgehog is 'incorrect' game design

Whats the reward for mastery o.o? I've watched Sonic speedruns and the ending they gets the same as mine. No bonus content unlocked, no nothing.

Well, the Genesis games and CD reward you for mastering the level in my opinion. Speed isn't necessarily the first objective. You can complete the game and do quite well, but what's really helpful is multiple playthroughs. I never saw speed as the main objective. I always thought timing and platforming were more important, with speed being the fruit of your labor. So no, I don't think this is "incorrect" game design, even if I appreciate the thought put into the article.

My point was that speed is the reward. That's what I was trying to say. At their core, 2D Sonics are platformers. This isn't the best comparison, but in character action titles you aren't going to wipe the floor with even basic enemies. Combos and staying untouched come with time and replays. We can debate the merits of rewarding players with the mechanic advertised as the differentiator between Sonic and other platformers, but incorrect game design isn't really a thing (artistically....not in terms of tech and programming, etc). Like I said though, I do appreciate what the author was going for. It's still a good article.
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Yeah, it's not a masterpiece because its incorrect game design somehow manages to work. It's a masterpiece because its game design is correct for the game it's trying to be. Sonic has never been Mario.

In Sonic, the whole deal is that you're given a choice. You can hold right through everything and look at the pretty loops, or you can explore the different paths through the level. You can see a downward slope ahead of you and a hill you can jump to above your head, find some more coins or powerups, and maybe get a route that lets you reach higher speeds for longer than the easy "just hold right" route.

You can see this from the first zone of the entire series. look at all the ways the game shows the player that speed is fun, but there are also secrets to be found if you explore. Like how speeding up a slope can send you into a powerup hidden behind a tree, or how going backwards to explore rewards you with a huge speed boost.
 
The article is inherently flawed because it implies that a game that doesn't give you all the info you need to perfectly succeed the first time you play it is "incorrect".

This isn't the thesis of the article, it's the thesis of the book he references when comparing Sonic to Mario as a function of Lorde's song in how it fits in the pop canon.

Folks might be reading the article here but they're struggling with what the author is really saying.
 

Blue-kun

Member
I was arguing the same thing the other day in one of the countless Sonic threads that pop up lately, but I mostly agree with this guy. Incorrect game design or whatever he wants to call it, matter of fact is that Sonic the Hedgehog, ever since its conception, has been an odd beast. Mixing platforming with absurd speeds is a crazy idea, and the speed more often than not will penalize you, unless you've taken your sweet time to learn the ins and outs of those games. Not many do that, so they end up feeling frustrated whenever they're brought to a halt.

This, coupled with the ring system, which basically serves as one huge bandaid for the fact that the games will make the player get hit more often than not without being able to react on time, can make Sonic games pretty joyless experiences if the player themselves aren't trying to improve themselves. There's very little "challenge", because you can reach the end and yet be absolutely terrible at it, and not many games work quite like that, especially in this genre.

And yet, that doesn't make it bad. It's a one of a kind platformer, and for those who are into the repetion/memorization arcade-ish nature it has, Sonic is a really game/series. Figuring out why enemies are placed the way they are is lots of fun, and few things in videogames feel as rewarding as when you can run through a Sonic level, be it Classic or Modern, in blazing fashion.
 
And Mario hasn't?
Mario wins you via substance, Sonic assumes you will play even if you haven't found the substance yet. It's the same difference between a slow, meaningful song where all the lyrics can be heard clearly and a speed metal song that takes a few listens to catch what is even happening.
 
I think the article's author is trying to find some deep meaning as to why Sonic's design is "incorrect but works" but it just comes off as a Mario-centric view of platforming. He makes the mistake of believing just the marketing and thinking 16-bit Sonic is all about the speed. And while there are moments where the game takes control away from the player (being in a tunnel), most of the game isn't like that.
 

Calm Mind

Member
It's hilarious that Sonic is inspired by pinballl yet Sonic Spinball is seen by many as one of the worst Sonic games pre-3D.
 

425kid

Member
I think correct and incorrect is too strong a term to be used here but it gives the headline a good punch. There are just some good ways of making games or songwriting that are generally better in a lot of instances and some aspects that are more specific to make it work but not necessarily incorrect. This stems from looking at each part individually rather than as a whole. Sometimes things are greater than the sum of its parts because of how everything work together. But a lot more times it doesn't work so it is incorrect.
 

Calm Mind

Member
I think the article's author is trying to find some deep meaning as to why Sonic's design is "incorrect but works" but it just comes off as a Mario-centric view of platforming. He makes the mistake of believing just the marketing and thinking 16-bit Sonic is all about the speed. And while there are moments where the game takes control away from the player (being in a tunnel), most of the game isn't like that.

16 bit Sonic was all about the speed. From the games, down to the marketing. Nintendo is where you went to get tight platforming.

^hahahhahahahah
 
Are ya saying speedrunners haven't mastered the game? Not even ones doing 100% speedruns? If mastery means going super slow an cautiously so as not to get hit by dozens of jerkish enemy/obstables placements in order to try and wins at usually awful bonuses stages... then I'm a Sonic master! Cause I got all the emeralds an junks on all those early Sonic games! It wasn't fun but I did it!

My bad, thought you meant those speedruns that do nothing but actually run through. Haven't seen Speedrunners that explore Sonic levels.
 
I wouldn't call the first Sonic a masterpiece. More like a haphazardly designed game that is enjoyable despite itself. If there's a rhyme or reason to its level designs (besides high, mid, low lanes) I haven't found it.

Like is there a Sonic equivalent to this Mark Brown video breaking down the four-part level design in Mario games?
 

SalvaPot

Member
Eeh, its down to preference. There are extremely broken games that still are able to be fun as hell (Looking at you Melee =P)
 

Toxi

Banned
An interesting case: Sonic 1 is the most "correct" of the three Genesis games. It's the most focused on slow platforming with predictable obstacles. Marble Zone and Labyrinth Zone especially.

It's also easily the worst of the three.

It's hilarious that Sonic is inspired by pinballl yet Sonic Spinball is seen by many as one of the worst Sonic games pre-3D.
As a pinball fan, Sonic Spinball has awful pinball physics. Somehow Sonic controls less like a pinball in Spinball than he does in the Genesis games.
Eeh, its down to preference. There are extremely broken games that still are able to be fun as hell (Looking at you Melee =P)
Melee isn't broken so much as the people who made it had no clue just what was humanly possible with the options they included.
 

Lindsay

Dot Hacked
I would say that speedrunners probably never interact with, or even see, 40% of what a sonic game has to offer, because it is slower.
Is it possible to explore 100% of a Sonic level within the same playthrough? Some have hard "checkpoints" in which its impossible ta go back to the start and run off down some other path.

And Mario hasn't?
I know right? I've played lotsa games over an over again. Sonic included, but its not at all special in that regard! In fact loads of games are much more fun on their second playthrough on cause ya know some of the tricks & traps awaiting ya an are less hesistant to just get on in there and play.

My point was that speed is the reward. That's what I was trying to say.
I see. The reward is something the player makes up/decides for themselves its what you're saying. At one point I got pretty okay at Sonic Rush an it was nice not dying instantly to whatever (pits/lasers/etc.). But I never thought of it as the game rewarding me, more like "yay I'm getting screwed over less!". I can totally see having more fun playing as a reward though. Speed not so much unless speed = fun. If peeps feel that way they're totally not wrong cause everyones fun is different!
 

oon

Banned
Sonic being fun but having unconventional design doesn't mean it's "bad design" - only that it doesn't conform to one particular theory on what good design looks like.

A novel or film wth unconventional structure/form like House of Leaves or Pulp Fiction aren't necessarily poorly structured.

I think they're looking at it a little backwards by stating it's fun despite "bad" design. Is it fun? Alright, then how can we formulate a theory of good design that includes unconventional cases like Sonic?
 
But video games are all about control.
That's an assumption that puts games like "Toss the Turtle", Combo/Explosion games, Virtual slot machines and virtual Pinball in a weird position. And even further...

The whole concept of Sonic is that balance between control and lack of control, wrestling for power. But that aspect is present ever so slightly in all action games.

When you make a long jump in Mario by keeping Right pressed then bounce over successive enemies, you are not really in control. For a slight instant, your trajectory is decided, locked, an you trust your instinct and the game's design to guide you. Every time you attack in a game with heavy weaponry, you relinquish control for one instant during the animation.

Games are not "all" about control, but about putting inputs into a system, and see how it reacts. You trade off moments of inputs with moments of reactions, switching between moments of control and moments of abbandon.


So I think you could reformulate that the proportions of those instants are all wrong and whack in Sonic compared to more "classic" games... But then again any game with cutscenes during gameplay is similar to having a grind rail that takes away control from you, and those aren't particularly rare either?
Now THIS is a game where you have NO control, a case so extreme it would probably get the "not a game" label.
 

Blue-kun

Member
I would say that speedrunners probably never interact with, or even see, 40% of what a sonic game has to offer, because it is slower.

Just because they're speedrunning doesn't mean they don't know what else is on the level. Actually, I'd argue otherwise, chances are they know the game far, far more than your regular player.

And honestly, even if you have explored every nook of a Sonic stage, what's the point? You can go around and try to explore them, but there's like, no real reward for doing so. The goal is to get to the end, and the higher path takes you there faster and usually more reliably, so obviously once you've gotten good at the game, that's what you'll try to stick with. You can go to mid/low if you want to know them, but after you've gone there once or twice, why would you purposely play the game in a way that forces Sonic to go slow, making you go through less than great platforming sections with a character that obviously wasn't designed around the idea of doing precision platforming of any kind?

I know there are odd people out there who'll say "I enjoy it!" - and that's fine -, but it's still not how the majority will want to experience these games, and, dare I say, it's not how they were designed to be played.
 

RRockman

Banned
An interesting case: Sonic 1 is the most "correct" of the three Genesis games. It's the most focused on slow platforming with predictable obstacles. Marble Zone and Labyrinth Zone especially.

It's also easily the worst of the three.


As a pinball fan, Sonic Spinball has awful pinball physics. Somehow Sonic controls less like a pinball in Spinball than he does in the Genesis games.

That's my biggest problem with the article. He just glosses over this to make his point. He also assumes that everyone just blazes through without exploring the level, which was really fun to do and encouraged in 3 to find the special stages.
 
if we are talking Sonic The Hedgehog 1 then lets talk Sonic The Hedgehog 1 , not go off on tangants on the 3D games or spinoffs.

Sonic The Hedgehog 1 is a basic platformer and is correctly designed as such.

Sonic The Hedgehog 1 is the most PLATFORMY Sonic game where you CANNOT zip through aimlessly. You must PLATFORM to LIVE.

Scrap Brain Zone is a hardcore Platfoming zone. You can't press RIGHT blind. You will die, in the first 2 seconds
 
I agree with some of that, there was an interesting exchange in the Forces thread where someone critiqued it from the point of view of a racing game, pointing out that there were blind turns beyond blind hills, and that the camera should be positioning itself so that the player could see further ahead and plan out, whereas even slight turns were blocked to line of sight.

Then someone said it didn't matter because that section was all on rails anyway.
 
can someone pay me to write something every time I make a completely arbitrary mental connection between and old video game and a piece of pop culture ephemera
 

RRockman

Banned
if we are talking Sonic The Hedgehog 1 then lets talk Sonic The Hedgehog 1 , not go off on tangants on the 3D games or spinoffs.

Sonic The Hedgehog 1 is a basic platformer and is correctly designed as such.

Sonic The Hedgehog 1 is the most PLATFORMY Sonic game where you CANNOT zip through aimlessly. You must PLATFORM to LIVE.

Scrap Brain Zone is a hardcore Platfoming zone. You can't press RIGHT blind. You will die, in the first 2 seconds

Glad someone else actually played the the first one.
 

IrishNinja

Member
god, i keep hoping the "sonic was never good" type hot takes would die in a fire, yet here we are.

this guy is not only knocking a multi-tiered level (designed for replay value, as well as treating speed as a reward for pattern learning & such), but makes the common mistake of treating said system as "punishing" when rings are literally there so that this is mitigated for the player. the "pinball" influences are always overstated to, when it's clear thats for places like Spring Yard Zone.

Sonic is incorrect game design and yet, like Green Light, it’s a masterpiece. As Lorde sings, you want to just let go, but you can’t – you’re not really free. Yet sometimes in Sonic, when you get better, or through sheer luck, things take off, every jump is right, every loop-the-loop is perfect, and you’re in the flow, sailing above the game’s strange structure. Like the bridge in a brilliant pop song, it’s an exhilarating rush. It’s incorrect, but holy crap, when it works, it works.

like, he almost gets it here, but then it could also be "sheer luck" and the conclusion is still bad. it's a well designed masterpiece.
 

PokéKong

Member
OP is true and right. I know there are some ways the design works in practice, but in the end it is extremely inelegant. I have a strong distaste for anything that relies primarily on memorization, Sonic feels like it's going for highest difficulty DDR, while most platformers have mastered the deceptive simplicity of Rhythm Heaven.

Sonic maybe would've been a truly great series had it not insisted on speed being its one core selling point. If you want it to be all about "speed" maybe it should've had a character that uses more short bursts of acceleration in advantageous spots, something more like Donkey Kong Country with its rolling mechanics. But Sonic with his extremely low rate of acceleration and high top speed in an environment so much verticality and obstacles just makes no sense to me.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
PokéKong;244688631 said:
OP is true and right. I know there are some ways the design works in practice, but in the end it is extremely inelegant. I have a strong distaste for anything that relies primarily on memorization, Sonic feels like it's going for highest difficulty DDR, while most platformers have mastered the deceptive simplicity of Rhythm Heaven.

Sonic maybe would've been a truly great series had it not insisted on speed being its one core selling point. If you want it to be all about "speed" maybe it should've had a character that uses more short bursts of acceleration in advantageous spots, something more like Donkey Kong Country with its rolling mechanics. But Sonic with his extremely low rate of acceleration and high top speed in an environment so much verticality and obstacles just makes no sense to me.

Did you read the OP you're referring too.? It says in it that Sonic is a masterpiece.

Sonic is incorrect game design and yet, like Green Light, it's a masterpiece. As Lorde sings, you want to just let go, but you can't – you're not really free. Yet sometimes in Sonic, when you get better, or through sheer luck, things take off, every jump is right, every loop-the-loop is perfect, and you're in the flow, sailing above the game's strange structure. Like the bridge in a brilliant pop song, it's an exhilarating rush. It's incorrect, but holy crap, when it works, it works.
 
Was totally on board until I got to this

Sonic is incorrect game design and yet, like Green Light, it’s a masterpiece.

disgusting. The author betrayed me


Fascinating take on gameplay conventions though. Sonic is the opposite of Mario a lot of ways, and while it can still work, it does eschew the fundamentals of SMB. Never have much thought about the pinball aspect as I've barely played sonic games, but that it was an inspiration for those makes sense.
 

Toxi

Banned
PokéKong;244688631 said:
OP is true and right. I know there are some ways the design works in practice, but in the end it is extremely inelegant. I have a strong distaste for anything that relies primarily on memorization, Sonic feels like it's going for highest difficulty DDR, while most platformers have mastered the deceptive simplicity of Rhythm Heaven.

Sonic maybe would've been a truly great series had it not insisted on speed being its one core selling point. If you want it to be all about "speed" maybe it should've had a character that uses more short bursts of acceleration in advantageous spots, something more like Donkey Kong Country with its rolling mechanics. But Sonic with his extremely low rate of acceleration and high top speed in an environment so much verticality and obstacles just makes no sense to me.
Have you ever considered that "deceptive simplicity" is often really just "simplicity"?

I wouldn't call 2D Mario "deceptively simple", I would just call it simple. And that's fine, it works at that.
 

jcjimher

Member
PokéKong;244688631 said:
OP is true and right. I know there are some ways the design works in practice, but in the end it is extremely inelegant. I have a strong distaste for anything that relies primarily on memorization, Sonic feels like it's going for highest difficulty DDR, while most platformers have mastered the deceptive simplicity of Rhythm Heaven.

Sonic maybe would've been a truly great series had it not insisted on speed being its one core selling point. If you want it to be all about "speed" maybe it should've had a character that uses more short bursts of acceleration in advantageous spots, something more like Donkey Kong Country with its rolling mechanics. But Sonic with his extremely low rate of acceleration and high top speed in an environment so much verticality and obstacles just makes no sense to me.

I lose hope on humanity in these Sonic threads. Comparing them to highest difficulty DDR for the mother of god...Have you really played any Genesis Sonic game to a minimum depth? Do you aspire to match the Youtube tool assisted speedrunners maybe? (which isn't the point of the games at all).

I remember greatly enjoying the games by traversing them at a moderate (and perfectly controllable) running speed, exploiting and "flowing" with the natural-feeling physics and perfect placement of enemies, and getting some rushes of top speed at select places of the levels (where there were mostly no hazards).
 
I thought this was an interesting take on the Sonic series, and I think this is partly what those people who say "Sonic was never good" are getting at.

On paper, it's not great level design and it doesn't do a great job of teaching the player how to play or what to expect, but that's not really the type of game it is

What do you think, GAF?

Yes, this is my reason for thinking this game sucks. Though in the end, I didn't get to the same conclusion as the author that the games are ultimately fun anyway
 

Timeaisis

Member
I will also say
But video games are all about control.
is just wrong. Games are not all about control, they are about decisions. By "control", he actually probably is trying to get at agency, which is imperfect control imparted on some agent, i.e. Sonic. And which Sonic has plenty of.

A final point, a particular game design is not incorrect in spite of it "working", it is correct because it works. There isn't some game design rulebook that imparts the good game design decrees to all developers.
 
there are only 4 good Sonic games.

Sonic The Hedgehog 1
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
Sonic The Hedgehog 3
Sonic & Knuckles

that's it. Period,
----


Sonic CD is too loose, too aimless, too vague.
Sonic Spinball is not a good game.
Sonic 3D Blast is the begining of the end. Hate this game.

And all other Sonic games post Genesis era are bad Sonic games.

I have high hope for Mania
 

RRockman

Banned
there are only 4 good Sonic games.

Sonic The Hedgehog 1
Sonic The Hedgehog 2
Sonic The Hedgehog 3
Sonic & Knuckles

that's it. Period,
----


Sonic CD is too loose, too aimless, too vague.
Sonic Spinball is not a good game.
Sonic 3D Blast is the begining of the end. Hate this game.

And all other Sonic games post Genesis era are bad Sonic games.

I have high hope for Mania


C7S0ouqVAAANACj.jpg

.
 
This accurately sums up why I've never liked Sonic games. I never feel like I'm in control. It always seems like I'm doing something wrong and the game isn't giving me the tools to fix that.
 

Onaco

Member
Sonic's game design is flawed because of the ring system. It injects a sense of paranoia. People playing want numbers going up to show progress, but since the rings fall from high numbers to zero from just one mistake, casual players are always on edge about making mistakes while seasoned players will simply find them and move along while collecting unnecessary amounts of lives for them. Another stand out is that Sonic still uses a life system, even in the Sonic Mania game, which is a huge turn off that shows it isn't paying attention to the most jarring inclusion for any console game, since lives were always meant to get more quarters.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Sonic's game design is flawed because of the ring system. It injects a sense of paranoia. People playing want numbers going up to show progress, but since the rings fall from high numbers to zero from just one mistake, casual players are always on edge about making mistakes while seasoned players will simply find them and move along while collecting unnecessary amounts of lives for them. Another stand out is that Sonic still uses a life system, even in the Sonic Mania game, which is a huge turn off that shows it isn't paying attention to the most jarring inclusion for any console game, since lives were always meant to get more quarters.

You can recollect the rings after being hit. Rings are not hard to find either, they're abundant. Sonic stays alive far longer than Mario because rings are so abundant and recollectable upon losing some.
 
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