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Rice-Eater · Apr 23, 2017

Just wanted to through a bit of history first as to why I'm asking this question. I grew up watching martial art movies as a kid since the late 80's. For a very long time I really truly believed that real life fights between martial art masters looked like that. All the way up until my teens. I was even naive enough to believe that they could beat the best boxers like Tyson if they fought in a no rules fight. Then I got my wake up call when I discovered MMA and how BJJ(and grappling in general) is the dominant style when everybody only knows one style.

It was all very fascinating, but pretty disappointing at the same time. Fights don't actually look anywhere as cool as they do in movies. But what if people were superhuman? I'm using MCU Cap as a base because I think we could still have an idea of how the fights would look like. So with that in mind, will take downs and grappling still be a factor when everybody can easily lift 1,000 pounds and hurl it pretty far? Are fighters still dancing around looking for openings or does it become a big slobber knocker? Or when superhuman strength, speed, stamina, and reflexes are involved could fights actually resemble movie martial arts?

And I hope this doesn't turn into how naive I was as a kid and teenager. My childhood was before the internet and I loved kung fu movies as a kid. I think it should be understandable why I believed this back then.

Laieon · Apr 23, 2017

Capitan · Apr 23, 2017

watching kung fu movies makes me kind of wish that no one ever used weapons and being good at kung fu could make you king.
and yeah MMA stuff isn't that fun for me to watch either, particularly because of all the grappling. I think if everyone had more strength it would be similar though, no?

Sparrowhawk · Apr 23, 2017

I mean, if everyone has superhuman strength, isn't that just the new baseline? Nothing would change.

Rice-Eater · Apr 23, 2017

Capitan said:
I think if everyone had more strength it would be similar though, no?

Sparrowhawk said:
I mean, if everyone has superhuman strength, isn't that just the new baseline? Nothing would change.

Grappling works because humans aren't that strong. You have a 200 pound fighters vs another 200 pound fighter and it would be hard for the guy on bottom to get the guy on top off if he's a good grappler. But when both guys have Cap level super strength they still weigh 200 pounds but are probably 10 times stronger than peak level 200 pound fighters of today.

NoblesseOblige · Apr 23, 2017

Rice-Eater said:
When both guys have Cap level super strength they still weigh 200 pounds but are probably 10 times stronger than peak level 200 pound fighters of today.

You're asking for an answer grounded in reality under a question with unrealistic parameters. I don't think people can have that level strength and only weigh 200 lbs.

The Kree · Apr 23, 2017

Rice-Eater said:
Grappling works because humans aren't that strong. You have a 200 pound fighters vs another 200 pound fighter and it would be hard to get him off if he's a good grappler. When both guys have Cap level super strength they still weigh 200 pounds but are probably 10 times stronger than peak level 200 pound fighters of today.

With the increased strength also comes increased resistance. I don't think it scales upward the way you're imagining. We've seen that Captain America can kick a normal human and they'll fly back 50 feet, but Winter Soldier or Black Panther don't necessarily budge as easily.

sooperkool · Apr 23, 2017

Cap isn't super strong; just the peak of human strength so he benches about 750 pounds or so

The Kree · Apr 23, 2017

sooperkool said:
Cap isn't super strong; just the peak of human strength so he benches about 750 pounds or so

Find me a peak human that can do that.

Genryu · Apr 23, 2017

sooperkool said:
Cap isn't super strong; just the peak of human strength so he benches about 750 pounds or so

BlackGoku03 · Apr 23, 2017

It'd be interesting. The current rules and techniques in martial arts would be thrown out of the window.

caliph95 · Apr 23, 2017

The Kree said:
Find me a peak human that can do that.

pfft i can do that in my sleep

sooperkool said:
Cap isn't super strong; just the peak of human strength so he benches about 750 pounds or so

Both MCU and comic cap do stuff that actual athlete wish they can come close to

grimmiq · Apr 23, 2017

Assuming their strength was enhanced in proportion to their durability, I'd assume it would be very similar. If the brain remains as fragile as it is, it'd be a glass cannon fight, whoever gets a relatively clean hit to he head wins.

The whole "Ground and pound" would likely be gone, using your weight to pin someone down would become more or less useless if people could effortlessly lift multiple times their own weight, submissions like arm-bars are mostly leverage/weight, right? So I guess those would go too.

I think fights would be more boring with them ending with a lucky jab or maneuvering to the back and locking in a choke.

Mega · Apr 23, 2017

MMA can be pretty exciting!

https://youtu.be/a3kOfephk_c

Outside of well choreographed exceptions like The Raid, movie fights are usually lame when you've seen enough boxing and MMA. The clever cuts reveal the movement limitations in the actors and use of stunt actors and body doubles. The approaches, silly throws to safety and "one minion at a time" show the protag's plot armor. Then there's the camera speedup and SFX. There's so much that takes away the sense of urgency and danger.

Also, BJJ is not dominant. Strikers with no other MAs under their belt and only good takedown and submission defense can and have neutralized ground fighters.

Oh and Cap is superhuman. No human can hold a freakin helicopter from taking off.

Alx · Apr 23, 2017

I think a one on one fight could look like insect fights, since they also have more strength compared to their weight, and also more resilience. So mostly grappling indeed, and focus on weak points like articulations or wind pipe, rather than powerful blows. But it's also a kind of grappling where it doesn't matter who's above and who's below.

TickleMeElbow · Apr 23, 2017

Well if it was an MMA match they'd have to make the "cage" the size of a football field or some shit. Maybe a coliseum with a force field around it, because they'd be able to jump really high and move really fast (cover a lot of distance).

It would prolly loosely resemble those tenkaichi fights from Dragon Ball without all the energy attacks and floating in the air and shit.

I guess the main difference compared to MMA fights now would be the distance covered/potential force generated in their attacks.

Rice-Eater · Apr 23, 2017

Alx said:
I think a one on one fight could look like insect fights, since they also have more strength compared to their weight, and also more resilience. So mostly grappling indeed, and focus on weak points like articulations or wind pipe, rather than powerful blows. But it's also a kind of grappling where it doesn't matter who's above and who's below.

LOL, this was actually a pretty heavy influence of me making this thread. I've been spending a lot of time watching bug fights on youtube. These bugs are much faster and stronger than we are when it comes to weight to strength/speed ratios. The fights end super quick though since they all have fangs, poison, claws, and so on. But humans fighting in combat sports would have rules so we're not going for the eyes or balls if they were still super sensitive even as a superhuman.

Though I do include durability in the list of super powers this part we'd just have to make up our own rules. Either go with movie versions where Cap and Winter Soldiers can keep throwing big haymakers at each other and keep going or use real world standards where even if our durability goes up, our strength going up equally to nullify it and can end fights in one punch.

jdstorm · Apr 23, 2017

The real reason movie fights are more interesting is due to films not having to deal with the Risk vs Reward nature of fighting. For example lets say a human could do a perfect flying tornado kick 2/10 times they tried it. Failing on a film set results in another attempt. Failing in a fight gets your ass kicked. Due to this Humans often fight more defensively and only strike when there is a reduced chance they will be hit on a counter.

Another good example of this is the Ninja Warrior TV series and its equivalents like Netflix's Ultimate Beastmaster. Given enough attempts a large proportion of athletes could likely do a fast perfect run on some of the earlier stages. Yet time and time again we see one costly slip knock out a contestant who is among the favourites on a silly mistake that they likely wouldn't often repeat.

matrix-cat · Apr 23, 2017

sooperkool said:
Cap isn't super strong; just the peak of human strength so he benches about 750 pounds or so

You're talking about a guy who curled a helicopter in his most recent movie.

caliph95 · Apr 23, 2017

matrix-cat said:
You're talking about a guy who curled a helicopter in his most recent movie.

Yep peak human alright

SixMachine · Apr 23, 2017

Even if your durability went up with your strength, I don't think our joints would be able to handle the combat. Like if a guy kicks your leg, he will easily pop your knee out or a close range scuffle could easily end with someone dislocating a shoulder.

There's also the issue with the brain, even if your skull was 10 times harder to break, your brain is basically still mush floating in fluids. So if your head gets rocked back and forth, you will still get punch drunk in a fight from taking a hit to the head. In comics, it is why Wolverine can get knocked the hell out even from people who wouldn't put a dent in the adamantium, since his brain is still mush after head trauma (though he fortunately can eventually repair it, everyone else not so much).

border · Apr 23, 2017

Can't ants lift like 10 times their own weight? So yeah, however ants fight each other would be how superhumans fight each other.

caliph95 said:
Yep peak human alright

Is that really the explanation for why Captain America never seems to get hit by a bullet?

SixMachine · Apr 23, 2017

border said:
Can't ants lift like 10 times their own weight? So yeah, however ants fight each other would be how superhumans fight each other.

So basically every fight ends with the Subzero head rip fatality, except you don't need to spam low kicks and uppercuts to get to that point!

The Kree · Apr 23, 2017

border said:
Is that really the explanation for why Captain America never seems to get hit by a bullet?

They did a similar thing with the Master Chief in the Halo: The Fall of Reach novel where the genetic modifications they gave him made his sense of time more acute, so the world around him feels like it's moving in slow motion, which is equivalent to seeing faster. Combined with the enhanced reflexes, super soldiers can dodge bullets. Not always, but enough.

Alx · Apr 23, 2017

The Kree said:
They did a similar thing with the Master Chief in the Halo: The Fall of Reach novel where the genetic modifications they gave him made his sense of time more acute, so the world around him feels like it's moving in slow motion, which is equivalent to seeing faster. Combined with the enhanced reflexes, super soldiers can dodge bullets. Not always, but enough.

Waiting in line for an ATM must be painful for super-soldiers...

Mr Swine · Apr 23, 2017

The Kree said:
They did a similar thing with the Master Chief in the Halo: The Fall of Reach novel where the genetic modifications they gave him made his sense of time more acute, so the world around him feels like it's moving in slow motion, which is equivalent to seeing faster. Combined with the enhanced reflexes, super soldiers can dodge bullets. Not always, but enough.

Doesn't that mean that when people talk it feels like they are talking slower too?

The Kree · Apr 23, 2017

Mr Swine said:
Doesn't that mean that when people talk it feels like they are talking slower too?

There's a period of adjustment as they get used to their new abilities. They're crazy adaptive.

Correctomundo · Apr 23, 2017

Alx said:
Waiting in line for an ATM must be painful for super-soldiers...

Someone will post it, I'm sure, but there's a page from X-Factor where Quicksilver uses this as an analogy for why he's such a grouch.

caliph95 · Apr 23, 2017

Correctomundo said:
Someone will post it, I'm sure, but there's a page from X-Factor where Quicksilver uses this as an analogy for why he's such a grouch.

Found it

War Machine · Apr 23, 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5P2kgswBYI

JimiNutz · Apr 23, 2017

I'm still waiting for someone to make a media franchise (comics, books, movies etc.) where ALL humans are basically Cap America level power (due to genetic engineering or cyber enhancements) maybe with some added healing acceleration too.

That way the fight scenes can be fast and brutal without all the other bullshit powers than bog down superhero films.

TheVampire · Apr 23, 2017

Real fights are just people rolling around on the ground.

Nothing like in movies where the two characters stand a meter apart throwing fancy kicks and punches.

border · Apr 23, 2017

The Kree said:
They did a similar thing with the Master Chief in the Halo: The Fall of Reach novel where the genetic modifications they gave him made his sense of time more acute, so the world around him feels like it's moving in slow motion, which is equivalent to seeing faster. Combined with the enhanced reflexes, super soldiers can dodge bullets. Not always, but enough.

If he can dodge bullets because he has really good vision, that still doesn't make much sense. He would still be unable to see bullets fired from someone behind him.

border · Apr 23, 2017

caliph95 said:
Found it

Okay, so why does Quicksilver suffer from pre-menstrual syndrome?

ZackieChan · Apr 23, 2017

I assume it would be like Cap v Crossbones in the beginning of Civil War? Or Cap v Winter Soldier.

Caddywompus · Apr 23, 2017

The question isn't how the fight would look but how the scenery around you would look afterwards.

Property damage would be insane, a bar fight would result in major reconstruction every time someone threw a punch.

Red · Apr 23, 2017

border said:
Okay, so why does Quicksilver suffer from pre-menstrual syndrome?

Because people can't work cash machines, it says it right there.

Mega · Apr 23, 2017

Mr Swine said:
Doesn't that mean that when people talk it feels like they are talking slower too?

In Old Man's War there's a squad of super elite soldiers who can't stand how regular enhanced soldiers think-speak at normal speed, which to them is really slow (everyone communicates telepathically).

caliph95 · Apr 23, 2017

Mega said:
In Old Man's War there's a squad of super elite soldiers who can't stand how regular enhanced soldiers think-speak at normal speed, which to them is really slow (everyone communicates telepathically).

To be comic trash, there is also a time when The Flash on a date with his wife at an opera or a cinema got bored and accidentally turned on his super speed. He ended basically spending days from his perspective waiting for it to end and if it was the cinema seeing still pages

Rice-Eater · Apr 23, 2017

ZackieChan said:
I assume it would be like Cap v Crossbones in the beginning of Civil War? Or Cap v Winter Soldier.

Well the idea is that real world fighting looks nothing like that. But if we had super everything up to Cap level, could it actually look like that? Super human reactions could play a role in making real world fights with increased speed and strength look more like movie martial arts.

In the end I think I'm going with the glass cannon theory. There is no taking powerful punch from another superhuman even if you have superhuman durability because I'm basing this off real world standards in which people will just be much stronger, faster, and more durable. That may save you against regular people, but one good punch from another superhuman still works like it would when you put two people of equal weight classes against each other in boxing or MMA.

With all that said, I think the fight will have a lot of dancing around with both fighters trying to look for an opening. Funny thing is that after thinking about it, I think grappling will play a big role. But I don't think it turns into BJJ or wrestling. More like both guys will be wary of getting into the clinch because both guys will be able to easily pick up and slam the other. That could also end a fight quickly.

But if you go with the idea that a superhuman can take punches for days and still keep getting up then man that would be a much more interesting fight to see. I think it would look more like a brawl since you won't be so afraid of having the lights go out in one punch or kick. People would take more risk and be more aggressive I think.

caliph95 · Apr 23, 2017

Rice-Eater said:
Well the idea is that real world fighting looks nothing like that. But if we had super everything up to Cap level, could it actually look like that? Super human reactions could play a role in making real world fights with increased speed and strength look more like movie martial arts.

In the end I think I'm going with the glass cannon theory. There is no taking powerful punch from another superhuman even if you have superhuman durability because I'm basing this off real world standards in which some will just be much stronger, faster, and more durable.. That may save you against regular people, but one good punch still works like it would when you put two people of equal weight classes against each other in boxing or MMA.

With all that said, I think the fight will have a lot of dancing around with both fighters trying to look for an opening. Funny thing is that after thinking about it, I think grappling will play a big role. But I don't think it turns into BJJ or wrestling. More like both guys will be wary of getting into the clinch because both guys will be able to easily pick up and slam the other. That could also end a fight quickly.

Yeah i want to see how grappling works when both fighters can throw the other guy across the room.

Veelk · Apr 23, 2017

The Kree said:
Find me a peak human that can do that.

"Comic book Movie" peak human isn't "Real Life" peak human.

You're never going to find anyone in real life who has the hand eye coordination of Hawkeye, yet the movie gives us no reason to believe he has any kind of super enhancement or anything. He's apparently just a normal human being with 'peak' aiming abilities. You're also never going to find anyone who can actually learn things on the level of Tony, but he's apparently just a guy with peak intelligence. I'm pretty sure T'Challa doesn't have any enhancements to his strength beyond his vibranium suit, but he still performs with superhuman agility and strength.

This isn't even exclusive to comic book movies. Basic action movies have heroes perform in some way that is simply straight up impossible with no science fiction or magic powers backing up their abilities.

Eric the Red · Apr 23, 2017

Well, maybe the better question would be: What kind of reality-adjusting would it take for real life fights to resemble superhero fights?

The Kree · Apr 23, 2017

Veelk said:
"Comic book Movie" peak human isn't "Real Life" peak human.

You're never going to find anyone in real life who has the hand eye coordination of Hawkeye, yet the movie gives us no reason to believe he has any kind of super enhancement or anything. He's apparently just a normal human being with 'peak' aiming abilities. You're also never going to find anyone who can actually learn things on the level of Tony, but he's apparently just a guy with peak intelligence. I'm pretty sure T'Challa doesn't have any enhancements to his strength beyond his vibranium suit, but he still performs with superhuman agility and strength.

This isn't even exclusive to comic book movies. Basic action movies have heroes perform in some way that is simply straight up impossible with no science fiction or magic powers backing up their abilities.

No. There's peak human and there's superhuman. Cap is the latter. Superhumans don't exist. The distinction you're making between real world and movie peak humans is unnecessary.

Hawkeye's aim is superhuman. Tony's intellect is superhuman. T'Challa's strength is superhuman like Cap (it comes from a vibranium-mutated herb only found in Wakanda).

Veelk · Apr 23, 2017

The Kree said:
No. There's peak human and there's superhuman. Cap is the latter. Superhumans don't exist. The distinction you're making between real world and movie peak humans is unnecessary.

Hawkeye's aim is superhuman. Tony's intellect is superhuman. T'Challa's strength is superhuman like Cap (it comes from a vibranium-mutated herb only found in Wakanda).

Point to me where that herb is confirmed to exist in the MCU. I'll wait.

I say the distinction is necessary because even Black Widow can do things normal people can't do.

And if Tony is just a regular, non-enhanced person, then it doesn't matter how incredible his intellect is, it is human. Like, by definition, it's not super in any sense expect that it's exceptional, but that still means that 'normal' people can be as smart as Tony, they just need the right combination of generics and environment.

Until they actually say otherwise, the most you can say is that we have no distinction between what peak human and superhuman even is. Maybe in the MCU, if a guy trained hard enough, he could do the stuff cap does. It's unconfirmed at best.

Violet_0 · Apr 23, 2017

Genryu said:

TIL that superheroes work out in their costumes

Litan · Apr 23, 2017

Veelk said:
Point to me where that herb is confirmed to exist in the MCU. I'll wait.

I say the distinction is necessary because even 'normal' humans can't do the things even Black Widow can do.

Until they actually say otherwise, the most you can say is that we have no distinction between what peak human and superhuman even is. Maybe in the MCU, if a guy trained hard enough, he could do the stuff cap does. It's unconfirmed at best.

What do you want him to do? Sneak into MarvelStudios and steal the BP script? Black Panther took on Bucky without the suit and ran as fast as Cap and Bucky. He is clearly superhuman.

Slayven · Apr 23, 2017

Litan said:
What do you want him to do? Sneak into MarvelStudios and steal the BP script? Black Panther took on Bucky without the suit and ran as fast as Cap and Bucky. He is clearly superhuman.

Bucky was toying with regular humans but t'challa forced him to run, then beat him up 3 flights of stairs.

Sojgat · Apr 23, 2017

Apart from the handful of silly twirls and high kicks, I still think the final fight from Balde 2 would be the best representation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmzuXCwiqfs

Lots of grappling, people getting thrown around the room, broken bones, etc.

Veelk · Apr 23, 2017

Litan said:
What do you want him to do? Sneak into MarvelStudios and steal the BP script? Black Panther took on Bucky without the suit and ran as fast as Cap and Bucky. He is clearly superhuman.

I want him to justify his argument with evidence. If he doesn't have any, well, then....

As for your argument, it's predicated on the idea that Cap and Bucky themselves are superhuman when the serum could just have enhanced their abilities to what is considered peak human. If that's true, then T'Challa isn't superhuman, he just trained himself to be peak human, and that explains why he can fight on the level of Cap and Bucky.

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