Its also Linked to games like sonic adventure 2, I feel like its less about whats happening and more about how its used. But to offer another counter point, it doesn't need to be a joke, it doesn't need to be in on the joke. One because I like games being dumb with out having to constantly look at the camera. But two, do you read the comics? Ever Since Flynn took over, while I wont say flynn has been perfect, but the guy wrote stories for those books where there are... " serious" stories, that take themselves seriously aren't meant to be funny and are just... fun cool actiony dumb adventures.
You can do that really well.
Just do it good, and whatever they do , focus on just that.
Well, maybe Flynn might help pen the English script of Forces (maybe? hopefully?), so maybe his talent can be of use for an official game in the future. And yes, I enjoyed Adventure 2's plot a lot too.
I just don't know if SEGA can write good stories anymore, as the last honest great one, to me, was in Unleashed and Black Knight. Both had stories blending silly and serious perfectly. Colors was too silly, Generations HAD no story, Lost World was a tonal mess, and Boom Wii U was...just unfinished.
Cool Dumb Actiony Adventures fit Sonic perfectly. They just need to be well written. We haven't gotten that in years. So...hopefully you get why I don't expect that to happen in Forces.
Oh i'm expected the worse out of forces, that whole game seems creatively bankrupt as fuck.
I'm just hoping for the future. I'm also hoping the forces story is fine, or at least they don't fuck up the characters I like up, primarily shadow and tails. I've given up on knuckles or blaze doing anything of use at this point.
It's really not. It's not a lie to point out that the Sonic social media stuff is widely known for embracing internet memes and gaming community jokes made about / against the series--it's how the Twitter feed even got its popularity in the first place. They even admitted they hinted about Forces having the Custom Hero system with a tweet that included the Coldsteel the Hedgehog meme a while back.
Not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, mind you. Just pointing out that the social media side of Sonic gets a lot of its reputation from that.
II feel like anecdotal. Especially with your term, the last two decades. There are fans, outside of classic sonic, so... for the large sections of two decades, and large sections of people, they were enjoying sonic adventure 2, or the advanced games, or the rush games, or unleashed, battle, ect ect ect.
I'm not talking specifically about the fanbase, I'm referring to the general community--gamers outside the series, and game reviewers/journalists in addition to dedicated Sonic followers.
Moreover, each of the Sonic games you listed are either heavily contested even among Sonic fans, let alone contested by people outside the series (Adventure 2 and Unleashed) or are spinoffs/handheld games that few people outside the fandom are even aware about (Advance/Rush games, Battle).
The Genesis games are the only Sonic games that are both widely recognized and widely considered good games by the general populace. There's a reason why almost every article about Sonic starts with a retrospective that says Sonic as a series began to falter the moment he made the jump to 3D.
The Genesis games are the only Sonic games that are both widely recognized and widely considered good games by the general populace. There's a reason why almost every article about Sonic starts with a retrospective that says Sonic as a series began to falter the moment he made the jump to 3D.
That's anecdotal as hell. I think you are really trying to create a world, where people only excited about classic sonic games... that really really doesn't exist. And I think the key to this, is a simple one. You keep claiming " the general populous" but... like Shadow is the most popular sonic character, not named sonic to date. Like sega jokes about this, Sega doesn't do character polls anymore, because he wins all of them, and the last time they wanted to do one, people on websites started cheating to prevent him from him winning. Why do I bring this up? Because people like him because of the adventure and heroes games, people have extremely fond memories of those. And while people on the internets reaction to sonic adventure in SOME case be disdain... the general reaction is " I remember sonic adventure I liked I played a long time ago" or " they should make another one of those" much... simular to the classic games.
Why do you think people like Egorapotor or Jeff Gertsman get man when people about the adventure games being good, because a lot of people like those games, the characters in those games, have fond memories of them and respond when people say they are bad.
You are painting the fanbase of sonic and the general populous of people who play games who might play sonic in a light that isn't true. It is warped to " everyone only really likes the genesis games" it isn't true. Sonic has maimed tained a giant ass media empire , because people like different types of sonic shit, and I feel like you need, and a lot of folks really need to come to terms with that.
The thing about the Sonic fanbase is that Sonic has been so many different and disparate things over the years. There are people who fell in love with the Genesis games, people who grew up with the Adventure series, people who grew up watching SatAM and AoStH, people who grew up watching Sonic X, people who grew up reading the Archie Comic. There's an even younger generation now who's growing up with Sonic Boom, whose first game might have been Colors or Generations or even Lost World or Boom.
All these games are basically platformers of a sort starring Sonic, but in terms of tone, style, and mechanics, the range of variation is massive. This is ultimately one of the biggest problems Sega faces when making new Sonic games, but in fairness, it's a self-inflicted wound. Sonic has been so many different things to different people that it's become nearly impossible to please all of them with a single game.
That's anecdotal as hell. I think you are really trying to create a world, where people only excited about classic sonic games... that really really doesn't exist. And I think the key to this, is a simple one. You keep claiming " the general populous" but... like Shadow is the most popular sonic character, not named sonic to date. Like sega jokes about this, Sega doesn't do character polls anymore, because he wins all of them, and the last time they wanted to do one, people on websites started cheating to prevent him from him winning. Why do I bring this up? Because people like him because of the adventure and heroes games, people have extremely fond memories of those. And while people on the internets reaction to sonic adventure in SOME case be disdain... the general reaction is " I remember sonic adventure I liked I played a long time ago" or " they should make another one of those" much... simular to the classic games.
Why do you think people like Egorapotor or Jeff Gertsman get man when people about the adventure games being good, because a lot of people like those games, the characters in those games, have fond memories of them and respond when people say they are bad.
You are painting the fanbase of sonic and the general populous of people who play games who might play sonic in a light that isn't true. It is warped to " everyone only really likes the genesis games" it isn't true. Sonic has maimed tained a giant ass media empire , because people like different types of sonic shit, and I feel like you need, and a lot of folks really need to come to terms with that.
There are absolutely a ton of people - mostly not the kind of person who posts on NeoGAF - who grew up with the Adventure games and loves them. But honestly, do you know what I hear from Adventure fans when they see Forces? They're bummed that Sonic's gameplay is still the "boost" gameplay from Unleashed on. They're bummed that classic Sonic is in the game, because isn't he already in Mania, why does he need to be here? Why is the guy from Hoobastank in the theme song when they could use Crush 40?
My personal experience with Adventure fans is that they are a lot like Genesis fans - they don't feel like Sega has made a great Sonic game since Sonic Adventure 2. They don't want Forces. They want Adventure 3. In this sense, Forces is basically being pulled from all sides. Adventure fans look at it and like the more serious and dark tone, but don't like it from a gameplay perspective. Classic fans look at it and think the classic mode looks like shit compared to Mania. Unleashed/Colors/Generations fans look at it and think the boost level design looks really amateur compared to those games. It doesn't look like it's set to make any particular part of the fanbase all that happy. Sonic Team is trying to please everyone and in doing so will please no one.
And that reflects in sales figures. Sonic is not some kind of unstoppable juggernaut, where they can just put out shit game after shit game and still sell millions. Sonic 06 never broke a million. The two original Sonic Boom games sold 600k combined (which means you can't just blame the Wii U, because the 3DS game sold like shit too). It is absolutely, entirely possible that Mania could outsell Forces
and in fact, if Sega ever does the obvious and smart thing and puts Mania on iOS/Android, there is almost no possible way it doesn't
Let me clear, i'm not saying that adventure fans like focres.
I'm a fucking adventure fan and I hate forces, Heck i'm not even saying mania can't outsell forces. The only think i'm arguing is that the only thing unifying sonic fans is classic sonic is kinda false hood. That if that were to happen, its more towards the perceived clustyfuck-ey quality to the game, rather than the concept itself.
I"m also saying there is a new section of the sonic fanbase who grew up on unleashed, and like colors and generations and shit. And will probably be fine with this. And a lot of those guys are strait up kids, and I don't if you know... a kid getting to make his own sonic character, like.. forreal. Is necessarily going to do poorly, i guess.
I also agree and have said again again about the " trying to please everyone" and getting no one. I think the best move for them going forward is to treat sonic like brand, and make different games for different people. Then you will have better focused products that different types of people can enjoy. Not just games, different products with characters, expand.
I'm not saying sonic is an unstoppable juggernaunt , but it I am saying it means different things to people, and people are willing to buy different. And as much I would like bad games to be not bought sometimes that doesn't happen.
Also Imma need citation on 06 never breaking a million. I kinda don't believe that
The thing about the Sonic fanbase is that Sonic has been so many different and disparate things over the years. There are people who fell in love with the Genesis games, people who grew up with the Adventure series, people who grew up watching SatAM and AoStH, people who grew up watching Sonic X, people who grew up reading the Archie Comic. There's an even younger generation now who's growing up with Sonic Boom, whose first game might have been Colors or Generations or even Lost World or Boom.
All these games are basically platformers of a sort starring Sonic, but in terms of tone, style, and mechanics, the range of variation is massive. This is ultimately one of the biggest problems Sega faces when making new Sonic games, but in fairness, it's a self-inflicted wound. Sonic has been so many different things to different people that it's become nearly impossible to please all of them with a single game.
I've recently noticed that the Resident Evil fanbase seems to be going through the same kind of thing. Of course, a lot of the old school RE fans were upset with the recent action oriented games like RE5 and RE6, which influenced the direction of RE7, but it turns out said action RE games have their own fanbase that want to be catered to and want the series to go back to being a big crazy action shooter like RE6, as opposed to RE7's pure first person survival horror style.
Visually this is the best looking Sonic with not only a good mix in art decals, but in polish.
Still debating whether it's better than Sonic 3 & Knuckles or on par.
That's anecdotal as hell. I think you are really trying to create a world, where people only excited about classic sonic games... that really really doesn't exist. And I think the key to this, is a simple one. You keep claiming " the general populous" but... like Shadow is the most popular sonic character, not named sonic to date. Like sega jokes about this, Sega doesn't do character polls anymore, because he wins all of them, and the last time they wanted to do one, people on websites started cheating to prevent him from him winning. Why do I bring this up? Because people like him because of the adventure and heroes games, people have extremely fond memories of those. And while people on the internets reaction to sonic adventure in SOME case be disdain... the general reaction is " I remember sonic adventure I liked I played a long time ago" or " they should make another one of those" much... simular to the classic games.
Why do you think people like Egorapotor or Jeff Gertsman get man when people about the adventure games being good, because a lot of people like those games, the characters in those games, have fond memories of them and respond when people say they are bad.
You are painting the fanbase of sonic and the general populous of people who play games who might play sonic in a light that isn't true. It is warped to " everyone only really likes the genesis games" it isn't true. Sonic has maimed tained a giant ass media empire , because people like different types of sonic shit, and I feel like you need, and a lot of folks really need to come to terms with that.
You're --either by accident, or on purpose-- not reading my posts correctly.
Saying games made after the Genesis games aren't as well-received as those titles isn't painting the games as bad or saying the Genesis games are the only games people liked. I specifically said the Genesis games are the only Sonic games "widely" considered good by most people. Outside of people who push the "Sonic was never good" revisionist history narrative, very few people actually call Sonic 1, 2, or 3&K terrible games. Excluding Colors and Generations to an extent, you don't really see such a uniformed opinion on the later titles. You'll find lots of people who say Unleashed is a great game, while finding several other people who think otherwise.
You can claim what I'm saying is anecdotal, but I'm not basing my arguments on personal experiences, I'm making them on the basis of critical consensus and sales data. Just ask a few people here or hold a poll about their thoughts about Adventure 2, or look up past threads on this forum or other message boards about those subjects. I guarantee you that the opinions you're get are not going to meet a certain middle ground. I'll even start you off with two GAFexamples.
With all that said, however, we're steering the thread quite a bit off-topic though with our tangent debate. I'll pre-emptively agree to disagree with you here for the sake of re-railing the thread focus back on Mania's reviews.
Thanks for linking this. I really enjoyed reading it, and it's nice to have a review that goes in depth on the development culture surrounding the game.
Also, it's nice to have longer form pieces to read. So much of gaming news and culture on the web is video content, and I much prefer text.
Fully anticipating 5s and 6s for Forces across the board. It's a shame because I'd love to see both 2D and 3D Sonic series have great games. I just can't see Forces holding a candle to Mania in any meaningful way.
So happy to see Mania getting praise though, it's like being a kid again.
I hope he was joking. I put myself on a media blackout for the game (no videos, no trailers, not even written details) and it's paying off. Loving the surprises.
Switch scores seem to be coming out now. Nintendolife finished their review (was previously in progress) and gave it a
9/10
.
Metacritic has at least four reviews of Mania on Switch now, which now sits at a metascore of 89, making it the highest-reviewed version of the game so far (PS4 version is 86, Xbox One version is 84). Switch version is now tied with the original DC release of Adventure 2 as the highest-reviewed Sonic game at the time of its original release, and second-highest reviewed Sonic game on the site (Taxman's remake of Sonic CD on iOS is still #1 at 93).
Switch scores seem to be coming out now. Nintendolife finished their review (was previously in progress) and gave it a
9/10
.
Metacritic has at least four reviews of Mania on Switch now, which now sits at a metascore of 89, making it the highest-reviewed version of the game so far (PS4 version is 86, Xbox One version is 84). Switch version is now tied with the original DC release of Adventure 2 as the highest-reviewed Sonic game at the time of its original release, and second-highest reviewed Sonic game on the site (Taxman's remake of Sonic CD on iOS is still #1 at 93).
The CD port is amazing. It's easily better than the original game, and somehow they made it work across all consoles. CD may not be the most popular Sonic game, but on a technical level the taxman port is near perfect because of the polish and extra additions.
Metacritic doesn't have reviews for the original versions of the Genesis games, the site was established much later. Adventure 2 is the earliest recorded Sonic game on the site.
GameRankings has metascores for the original releases, though the amount of recorded reviews don't crack double digits. The Genesis games all scored within the high 80s (with Sonic 1 at 86%, Sonic 2 and S&K at 88%, and Sonic 3 at 89%). Sonic CD's original release is at a perfect 100%, but only because one 10/10 review is counted.
Sonic Mania is a love letter to fans of the franchise, who will no doubt lap it up. But it also feels like a missed opportunity to be what Sega has never achieved before: a truly great Sonic game.
