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The Problem with Apu, a documentary by Hari Kondabolu.

T

torre_avenue

Banned
Hari Kondabolu is a fantastic stand-up comedian, and this is his next project.

It's an exploration into Apu and how his existence affects other Indian-origin / South-Asian actors and actresses. Hari Kondabolu did a bit a couple years ago on Apu that might tell you how his documentary is gonna go.

It's something that I haven't really thought about, but I'd suppose that there are people who's only real exposure to Indian and Pakistani people is Apu. While I'm sure the Simpsons in more recent years has given more characterization to Apu, it doesn't feel right that literally everyone in his family tree is voiced by someone white. Furthermore, his impact of Indian-Americans having to use his accent to get Indian parts is not right. For example, Kumail Nanjiani has voiced how he had to use the Apu accent when auditioning for a part. And more importantly, it's a symbol of the way Indian people get portrayed in mainstream media. See: the Ashton Kutcher Pop Chip ad, the Metro PCS ads, the brownface issues that "Master of None" talked about.

But, what do you all think?
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
When White is the default, your ethnic-ness is what makes you stand out as a memorable character, otherwise why have a ethnic character in the first place within a White narrative?
 
P

PeakPointMatrix

Member
The Master of None episode on this really highlighted a problem I didn't even think about for Indian-Americans. That sucks, although no one could know that a minor Simpsons character would have so much, damaging reach.
 
N

norm9

Member
While ideally I'd like more minority voice actors, there's something to be said about Apu and his family being well known wordlwide as a beloved character on the longest running cartoon show.
 
P

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
"The simpsons stereotypes all races. The problem is, we didn't have any other representation"

Is he talking about in the Simpsons specifically or in all media? If just the Simpsons, that is probably the case with a lot of groups of people.

Sunster said:
but because white is the default we see them as white people.
Click to expand...

Just a j o k e
 
T

torre_avenue

Banned
norm9 said:
While ideally I'd like more minority voice actors, there's something to be said about Apu and his family being well known wordlwide as a beloved character on the longest running cartoon show.
Click to expand...
They're beloved to the majority of America. The reason he's beloved is partly because of his stereotypical accent and that rubs people the wrong way. He's funny to people because of the way he speaks and that's set a wrong precedent.
ponpo said:
"The simpsons stereotypes all races. The problem is, we didn't have any other representation"

Is he talking about in the Simpsons specifically or in all media? If just the Simpsons, that is probably the case with a lot of groups of people.
Click to expand...
Generally.
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
ponpo said:
"The simpsons stereotypes all races. The problem is, we didn't have any other representation"

Is he talking about in the Simpsons specifically or in all media? If just the Simpsons, that is probably the case with a lot of groups of people.



Just a j o k e
Click to expand...

but it was a perfect way to make my point so i dove in anyway.
 
L

L Thammy

Member
When I was in elementary school, Apu was the source of all the kids' Indian stereotypes.

Also, as an adult, I've heard that immigrants actually do tend to be franchisees because it's essentially a way of buying a job. And franchisers are aware of this and try to take advantage of it because they're the ones who hold all the power in that relationship. So that comes to my mind when I see Apu now.
 
U

Username1198

Member
L Thammy said:
When I was in elementary school, Apu was the source of all the kids' Indian stereotypes.
Click to expand...

Yup I remember being called Apu all the time as a kid. Also, people saying "thank you, come again" pissed me off like nothing else. Also, "no I don't own a liquor store" " "no I can't get yo free hot cheetos from my store"
 
N

norm9

Member
torre_avenue said:
They're beloved to the majority of America. The reason he's beloved is partly because of his stereotypical accent and that rubs people the wrong way. He's funny to people because of the way he speaks and that's set a wrong precedent.
.
Click to expand...

I'm definitely talking out my ass here, but for sure at the beginning he was a curiosity because of his stereoypical job and accent, however, I don't think people kept liking him because he's the guy with the funny accent.

Think Khan on King of the Hill. He's got an accent, but there's more to the character than the accent. It's like yeah, the first few episodes, someone may think he's funny strictly because of the accent, but he's a great character because he got fleshed out, same as Apu.
 
N

Nairume

Banned
The sad thing is that they actually knew up front that doing Apu the way they did would result in this and initially weren't going to do it until Azaria went against his instructions and did the Apu voice and everyone loved it.
 
L

L Thammy

Member
Username1198 said:
Yup I remember being called Apu all the time as a kid. Also, people saying "thank you, come again" pissed me off like nothing else. Also, "no I don't own a liquor store" " "no I can't get yo free hot cheetos from my store"
Click to expand...

This is the one I got, but admittedly it hasn't happened for quite a while now.
 
S

swoon

Member
Fuck Apu. The only saving grace is that Apu is able to be Hindu, unlike pretty much every new young comedy show featuring Indians.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Apu really fucked with Indian immigrant community in US, I can say that first hand. It basically turned into a slur, and that accent is such a joke that any racist fucker can pull off.
 
N

norm9

Member
Would people rather have no Apu at all? I feel that would be worse.

eta- even with the shitty accent, he was the embodiment of the American dream. Immigrant practically owns his own business, has good morals (is a vegetarian), is religious, wants to be American, the most highly desirable bachelor in Springfield before he got married because of his great education, etc.
 
D

Dishwalla

Banned
torre_avenue said:
That feels corrective though.

Apu dates back to 1994, and that damage since then has been done. While I'm happy that they got an actual Indian person to voice his nephew, it doesn't undo the fact that for the majority of the 90s and early 2000s, when people saw an Indian person on TV, they saw Apu.
Click to expand...

Apu first appeared in 1990, in the eighth episode of the show.
 
D

Darth Pinche

Member
norm9 said:
I'm definitely talking out my ass here, but for sure at the beginning he was a curiosity because of his stereoypical job and accent, however, I don't think people kept liking him because he's the guy with the funny accent.

Think Khan on King of the Hill. He's got an accent, but there's more to the character than the accent. It's like yeah, the first few episodes, someone may think he's funny strictly because of the accent, but he's a great character because he got fleshed out, same as Apu.
Click to expand...

If people are freaking out about Apu being voiced by a white guy, Khan was voiced by Toby Huss.

jlMOExTl.jpg
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
- Apu
- Nuclear power being evil/irresponsible
- Science being a laughing matter.

Just a few things on top of my head that I always disliked about Simpsons. I mean I get that the whole anti-science stuff is because the writers were nerds themselves, so it's all in-jokes, but that's the kind of stuff that just ends up being a net-negative among the rest of the population. Much like Timmy from South Park, and many other things there, even if they are often defended as well-intentioned.
 
Sunster

Sunster

Member
torre_avenue said:
That feels corrective though.

Apu dates back to 1994, and that damage since then has been done. While I'm happy that they got an actual Indian person to voice his nephew, it doesn't undo the fact that for the majority of the 90s and early 2000s, when people saw an Indian person on TV, they saw Apu.
Click to expand...

yea i feel like when clueless people's only knowledge of Indians is Apu this scene from The Office is real af.
michael_scott_the_office_high_resolution_cookie_cookie_diversity_day.png

for those that are not into Th Office, Michael is being incredibly offensive and has no idea he's about to be slapped.
 
D

Dishwalla

Banned
Lord Error said:
- Apu
- Nuclear power being evil/irresponsible
- Science being a laughing matter.

Just a few things on top of my head that I always disliked about Simpsons. I mean I get that the whole anti-science stuff is because the writers were nerds themselves, so it's all in-jokes, but that's the kind of stuff that just ends up being a net-negative among the rest of the population. Much like Timmy from South Park, and many other things there, even if they are often defended as well-intentioned.
Click to expand...

The nuclear power stuff started when incidents like Three Mile Island and Chernobyl were still in the public conscience, so I can see where those jokes come from.
 
S

SoRuffShoNuff

Member
I have an Indian co-worker who sounds like Apu. Is the complaint that Indians dont actually sound like him because flat out that's not true, some do.
 
L

lightskintwin

Banned
SoRuffShoNuff said:
I have an Indian co-worker who sounds like Apu. Is the complaint that Indians dont actually sound like him because flat out that's not true, some do.
Click to expand...

The problem comes with minority representation within White dominated media. If the only representation of you in the media is a character that's an ethnic stereotype, then it can go from being an individual and independent character to the character being representative of that entire ethnicity.
 
L

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
SoRuffShoNuff said:
I have an Indian co-worker who sounds like Apu. Is the complaint that Indians dont actually sound like him because flat out that's not true, some do.
Click to expand...
Some do, yes, but having a popular funny character espouse those stereotypes encourages people to talk that way because (at best) they think it's cute. Thing is, immigrants don't have accents because they think it's cute to speak that way - they'd mostly want to talk with no discernible accent, if they could. I feel like it can even be a detriment to being taken seriously.
 
T

torre_avenue

Banned
Dishwalla said:
Apu first appeared in 1990, in the eighth episode of the show.
Click to expand...
26 years before they had an Indian character voiced by an Indian person.
norm9 said:
I'm definitely talking out my ass here, but for sure at the beginning he was a curiosity because of his stereoypical job and accent, however, I don't think people kept liking him because he's the guy with the funny accent.

Think Khan on King of the Hill. He's got an accent, but there's more to the character than the accent. It's like yeah, the first few episodes, someone may think he's funny strictly because of the accent, but he's a great character because he got fleshed out, same as Apu.
Click to expand...
norm9 said:
Would people rather have no Apu at all? I feel that would be worse.

eta- even with the shitty accent, he was the embodiment of the American dream. Immigrant practically owns his own business, has good morals (is a vegetarian), is religious, wants to be American, the most highly desirable bachelor in Springfield before he got married because of his great education, etc.
Click to expand...
I feel like he got character development because that's what the Simpsons had to do to find new comic ground. Over time, the jokes had to became less about his accent. But, that's still what people see when they look at him; a brown guy with a funny voice. I'm sure on the list of harmful stereotypes, it's not as bad as Sambo and the Japanese caricatures. But, I can imagine South Asian people don't like Apu for the same reasons East Asian people don't like it when white people speak in "Engrish".
 
M

Morts

Member
The trailer made me interested but it doesn't seem to say anything about when the documentary is out or how I can watch it.
 
L

L Thammy

Member
Regarding Kahn, I don't remember anyone imitating Kahn's voice, I remember people making fun of Hank's voice when addressing Kahn; "are you Chinese or Japanese?" His introduction was funny and memorable because it drew out Hank's ignorance.

I don't really remember Apu's introduction at all. Looking through his appearances in Simpsons Wiki, it seems like the first time he was involved with anything was when his store gets robbed in episode 12?
 
B

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
The problem with critiquing Apu is that you're critiquing the state of ethnic representation in animation in 1989-1990.

I'm sure if they do a reboot of Simpsons someday, they can get Indian actors for him and his family.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
torre_avenue said:
26 years before they had an Indian character voiced by an Indian person.


I feel like he got character development because that's what the Simpsons had to do to find new comic ground. Over time, the jokes had to became less about his accent. But, that's still what people see when they look at him; a brown guy with a funny voice. I'm sure on the list of harmful stereotypes, it's not as bad as Sambo and the Japanese caricatures. But, I can imagine South Asian people don't like Apu for the same reasons East Asian people don't like it when white people speak in "Engrish".
Click to expand...

There's also the element of him being rather singularly iconic as an Indian and/or South Asian character in American media (and often globally) for a long time, outside of Bollywood movies (or Bollywood inspired movies), which inflates the power of particular tics like an accent.

Should be an interesting documentary to watch, I'd say.
 
S

Shaanyboi

Banned
SoRuffShoNuff said:
I have an Indian co-worker who sounds like Apu. Is the complaint that Indians dont actually sound like him because flat out that's not true, some do.
Click to expand...

Stereotypes find their origin within some manner of truth. When Apu is literally the only basis for brown people among millions of sheltered-ass white people, that's when it becomes a fucking problem. He stops becoming an Indian guy, and starts becoming all Indian guys. Or all brown people, rather, because let's be real, the people using Apu as a basis for anything couldn't be bothered to tell different brown people apart.
 
N

NeoZeedeater

Member
I'm sure it sucks to be an actor and feel pigeon holed into stereotypical roles. On the other hand, it seems like major strides have been made for Indian people in English speaking TV in the past few years. Aziz Ansari, Mindy Kaling, Priyanka Chopra, Archie Panjabi, Russell Peters, Parminder Nagra, etc. have had big parts.

Also, Indian accents do happen to sound funny/cute to Anglophone ears just like German accents sound harsh. My wife is Indian (born and raised in Canada) and it's amusing when she imitates her mom's accent. My mother-in-law also thinks it's cool there's Indian characters on The Simpsons.
 
P

plufim

Member
ITT actual Indian immigrants/people of Indian descent saying Apu was an actual problem in their actual lives, while others tell them they heard Apu was empowering somehow.
 
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