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WiiU technical discussion (serious discussions welcome)

That was already answered. In a console, this difference in performance per flop won't be nearly as high as it is on PC, and performance per mm^2 would be bigger.

I don't know what to expect from WiiU GPU. If it's as customized as was pointed earlier by people who presumably had info about it, then FLOPs won't matter as much as with the other consoles because of the fixed functions included (and to emulate Wii at a hardware level, some fixed functions have to be there, so some effects will be "free" or much cheaper to achieve than on other consoles without that on it).

Yup, you've also got to take other things into account such as the reported low latency for the RAM and some sort of texture compression going on plus I suspect a few other things going on under the hood that we're unaware of.

What's going to be interesting is how these fixed functions will be implemented by third party engines such as CryEngine 3 and Unreal 4. Might cause problems porting between the Wii U, PS4 and 720 unless the likes of Crytek and Epic have been working closely with Nintendo during console development.
 
ALL Mario has always been a graphical showcase.

Fixed. Mario 3 pushed the NES via the MMC5 (I think... been awhile) wrapper. World showed off all of the new SNES effects (very large sprites, hardware rotation and scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds). World 2 (yoshi's island) showed off the full extent of the SuperFX2 chip, etc etc.

Nintendo has always used Mario to show off their latest and greatest hardware graphics wise.
 

Meelow

Banned
Fixed. Mario 3 pushed the NES via the MMC5 (I think... been awhile) wrapper. World showed off all of the new SNES effects (very large sprites, hardware rotation and scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds). World 2 (yoshi's island) showed off the full extent of the SuperFX2 chip, etc etc.

Nintendo has always used Mario to show off their latest and greatest hardware graphics wise.

That's true.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
That was already answered. In a console, this difference in performance per flop won't be nearly as high as it is on PC, and performance per mm^2 would be bigger.

Look i'm totally not an expert and probably i'm talking out of my ass but if this was totally true than it wouldn't make any sense for nextgen (OrbiRango) consoles to use CapeVerde instead of Juniper given the size of the die, the flop/s performance,the number of transistors and the node used... they obviously must have advantages over a 2-3 y/o gpu. Also let's be totally honest, putting a 4850-like gpu in the wiiu wouldn't have been absolutely mindboggling instead a lot of people expected this in the nintendo console.
 

goomba

Banned
Fixed. Mario 3 pushed the NES via the MMC5 (I think... been awhile) wrapper. World showed off all of the new SNES effects (very large sprites, hardware rotation and scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds). World 2 (yoshi's island) showed off the full extent of the SuperFX2 chip, etc etc.

Nintendo has always used Mario to show off their latest and greatest hardware graphics wise.

Not so much with NSMBU ..
 

ozfunghi

Member
Look i'm totally not an expert and probably i'm talking out of my ass but if this was totally true than it wouldn't make any sense for nextgen (OrbiRango) consoles to use CapeVerde instead of Juniper given the size of the die, the flop/s performance,the number of transistors and the node used... they obviously must have advantages over a 2-3 y/o gpu. Also let's be totally honest, putting a 4850-like gpu in the wiiu wouldn't have been absolutely mindboggling instead a lot of people expected this in the nintendo console.

He didn't say there is "NO" advantage for GCN. Just not in the same magnitude. Also, your benchmarks are for a 1GB vs 2 GB card... not exactly fair as that would be negated in a console. Also, Nintendo doesn't want to take much of a loss on hardware for too long and already has an expensive controller. Further, i doubt performance was the only deciding factor for DurBis to go with that design.
 
Not so much with NSMBU ..
They couldn't fit any extra chips onto the game disc.
Fixed. Mario 3 pushed the NES via the MMC5 (I think... been awhile) wrapper. World showed off all of the new SNES effects (very large sprites, hardware rotation and scaling, multiple scrolling backgrounds). World 2 (yoshi's island) showed off the full extent of the SuperFX2 chip, etc etc.

Nintendo has always used Mario to show off their latest and greatest hardware graphics wise.
Mario is often a system showcase, yes. A by the book example of what can be done for other teams and developers; but that's not the case with games by the New Super Mario Bros team which are just too simple from a technical standpoint for that.

Mario Galaxy Wii U follow up will most likely fill that void.
 

LeleSocho

Banned
already has an expensive controller.

That's the key, people were expecting those kind of performance given price, size, psu and time because they totally weren't expecting that the gimmick would've been so goddamn expensive. If you remove the controller a console released in very late 2012 with that size, power (the one i said) and psu sold at 350$ wouldn't have been nothing amazing
 
I wonder if this has anything to with in-game video streaming capability - as seen in some of NintendoLand's attractions - which one dev(Shien?) said had virtually no negative effect on performance when they enabled the feature.

So that's 1 ARM9 processor, 1 (likely) dual-core ARM, DSP, I/O processor... is all that on the GPU itself? What else could Nintendo/AMD possibly thrown there?
Marcan clarified that recently:


@MatthewNMorales there is one ARM on the Latte. The DRH (host for the controller) is a separate chip. One or both WLAN modules are also ARM.

So the Wii U has at least three ARM processors, and one of them might be multi-core.
 
I don't really know how Nintendo are going to better Mario Galaxy 2 running on Dolphin tbh, i think much of the improvements in the new 3D Mario game will come from much larger environments instead of the small planet levels from SMG.

Although IQ may not match Dolphin at maximum settings, there could [should] be more detailed textures and more complex geometry, for a start. Plus, better lighting and more open worlds.
 
snowdog1971 said:
Yup, you've also got to take other things into account such as the reported low latency for the RAM and some sort of texture compression going on plus I suspect a few other things going on under the hood that we're unaware of.

What's going to be interesting is how these fixed functions will be implemented by third party engines such as CryEngine 3 and Unreal 4. Might cause problems porting between the Wii U, PS4 and 720 unless the likes of Crytek and Epic have been working closely with Nintendo during console development.
Of course, being "only" double the PS3 or 360 in theoretic FLOPS doesn't mean being only dobule as powerful.
Both PS3 and 360 had designs far from ideal, that wasted lot's of cycles of both CPU and GPU waiting for data.

About the fixed functions, what was said is that once the developer calls a certain function, the GPU will automatically use the fixed function if exists so it can't be that difficult to use if someone cares.
 

OryoN

Member
I don't really know how Nintendo are going to better Mario Galaxy 2 running on Dolphin tbh...

NintendoLand's plaza says hi! Even if it's lower res than what people can get on Dolphin, my point is that there're many graphical touches than can potentially make a Wii U Mario game stan out regardless.

nintendoland01b.png

nintendoland02b.png



Lighting & shading alone can make a huge difference(Zelda:WW Remake, Vs Dolphin images, for example) but there's also better/higher res textures(which you alluded to, but kinda downplayed), amount of detail on screen, lots of animated characters, and of course, greater potential for artists to let loose. Some or all of these things combined should be more than enough to created something much better looking than Mario Galaxy 2. Of course, that doesn't mean this will indeed happen.

Sorry if we're getting off-topic a bit.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
They couldn't fit any extra chips onto the game disc.Mario is often a system showcase, yes. A by the book example of what can be done for other teams and developers; but that's not the case with games by the New Super Mario Bros team which are just too simple from a technical standpoint for that.

Mario Galaxy Wii U follow up will most likely fill that void.

One thing I will point out, is that Nintendo always used 2D Mario to show off new pieces of technology - but the production values of the game itself were never elaborate. Super Mario World, for example, has very simplistic graphics and doesn't even use a large SNES cart. In terms of production values, graphical wow, it's conservative. It just showed off a few features like mode 7.

Only Yoshi's Island pushed for lavish, elaborate visuals in a 2D Japanese made Mario game.

In terms of technology, NSMB U is actually not unimpressive; it uses quite a few 3D background elements, some really huge 3D characters in places, and some unexpectedly artistic backgrounds with visual effects not really seen before. (Stylistically.) It's about inline with Super Mario World as scaled for the era it exists in.

Of course, the mandate of the NSMB series is "keep it simple, stupid", and to go for visual clarity for a wide audience. Now that the series is done for the foreseeable future, 2D platformers starring Mario might go in a different direction.

I actually find it intriguing that Good Feel is *not* making a sprite based sequel to Yoshi's Island or some such. With the way Nintendo thinks, that leaves artistically styled 2D platformers with an unfilled slot on Wii U, opening the possibility for such a game to be made in the next few years.
 

PetrCobra

Member
One thing I will point out, is that Nintendo always used 2D Mario to show off new pieces of technology - but the production values of the game itself were never elaborate. Super Mario World, for example, has very simplistic graphics and doesn't even use a large SNES cart. In terms of production values, graphical wow, it's conservative. It just showed off a few features like mode 7.

Only Yoshi's Island pushed for lavish, elaborate visuals in a 2D Japanese made Mario game.

In terms of technology, NSMB U is actually not unimpressive; it uses quite a few 3D background elements, some really huge 3D characters in places, and some unexpectedly artistic backgrounds with visual effects not really seen before. (Stylistically.) It's about inline with Super Mario World as scaled for the era it exists in.

Of course, the mandate of the NSMB series is "keep it simple, stupid", and to go for visual clarity for a wide audience. Now that the series is done for the foreseeable future, 2D platformers starring Mario might go in a different direction.

I actually find it intriguing that Good Feel is *not* making a sprite based sequel to Yoshi's Island or some such. With the way Nintendo thinks, that leaves artistically styled 2D platformers with an unfilled slot on Wii U, opening the possibility for such a game to be made in the next few years.

Oh. I'd really like to see those. I didn't play the game. Don't own Wii U yet. What I've seen so far was not really that amazing from a technical standpoint, I'd love to have some screens or videos showing off what you're talking about.
 
Oh. I'd really like to see those. I didn't play the game. Don't own Wii U yet. What I've seen so far was not really that amazing from a technical standpoint, I'd love to have some screens or videos showing off what you're talking about.
Digital Foundary did a good article about this a few weeks ago. The way NSMBU shows off the more advanced hardware reminds me of SMW: not that often, but may positively stun you when you see it. One example is the giant heavily-textured airships flying around at the end of a fortress.

As for the Mario Galaxy series, the developers used few tricks to get the games as pretty as they are. Developing those games on Wii U can not only be able to improve the polygon counts and lighting, but also improve the games IQ with an even more expansive world.

A recent example is Xenoblade compared to X. Monolithsoft sacrificed the game's IQ on the Wii to get those large worlds. With, 'X', though, they are able expand the world even more while improving IQ, animation, and textures to another level.

Both Monolithsoft and Nintendo Tokyo displayed a good understanding of the Wii, and that experience will likely carry over to the Wii U.
 
For comparison purposes, my 2007-2008 era lapop based Core 2 Duo T9550 CPU cranks out 18 - 20 GFLOPs in Linpack 10.3.4.

The Wii U CPU really can't be that slow, even against severely outdated hardware. Can it?

Linpack might not be very relevant, but still: Your C2D is clocked more than twice as high. Even if it wasn't more efficient per clock (which it is!), it would still be 33% faster.

The T9550 launched in Q4 2008 though and was pretty good for a laptop, had 35W TDP and was quite expensive too. So it is not much of a surprise really.
 

z0m3le

Banned
I still don't buy this supposition that all shaders in all console games are written that close to the metal. Wouldn't the vast majority of developers outside of first party marquee titles still use HLSL (or whatever high level shader language the API offers)?

I have no idea. The most likely figures put WiiU's CPU at 14 GFLOPs and The 8-core Jaguars at 102 -- for a factor of ~7.

Right the point is DX API doesn't take into account VLIW architectures at all really. You would assume that an API from GX2 or whatever Nintendo's OpenGL variant is called, would very much be built around the hardware they are using. Thus 20-40% of the VLIW5 that is normally ignored in DX would be used 95% of the time. Again there are things that are unrelated to DX that allows VLIW5 to nearly hit its theoretical flops just as well as GCN, so it is very likely a problem with the way these high level APIs are executing code on these architectures, something drivers and APIs designed around the architecture would not repeat.
 

Mildudon

Member
A recent example is Xenoblade compared to X. Monolithsoft sacrificed the game's IQ on the Wii to get those large worlds. With, 'X', though, they are able expand the world even more while improving IQ, animation, and textures to another level.
The opposite is what square enix did with FFXIII sacrificing gameplay, large worlds and freedom to explore for IQ. and the game shows for it.
 

z0m3le

Banned
oh ok... but from what i see im really liking. the guy that went on twitter and said he saw Bayonetta 2 gameplay and he needed help picking his jaw up from the floor.... might be on to something. i just pushed it off as a PR attempt to get people hyped.

The one thing that stands out as being nice to me is the rain in the background, if that is runtime, it will be nice to get some more heavy weather effects, the monster seems wet too, so maybe things will finally become wet.

But yes like others have said it isn't really enough to go on, I hear the model of bayonetta that walks away from the camera in the doc is actually in game too, considering this last scene was, this doesn't surprise me... We've seen models like this last gen IMO, but we also saw a lack of environments keeping up with that level of fidelity... I'll point to mass effect series as the prime example. If you are worried about Wii U's "power level" I would like to point out that it's fairly obvious that Wii U will be more capable visually, just simply matching AC3 at launch and showing off "X"'s scale should put minds at ease.

One thing I would point out is RAM played a very big wall for last gen, Wii U does have over twice the capacity, and while some are quick to point out memory bandwidth being 43% slower, they often forget that the bandwidth is cut in half on 360 for writing and reading. In Wii U it is set up as Read or Write, leaving it faster at either, but certainly slower when both need to happen at the same time, another point people forget often is how much more efficient memory controllers have become, Wii U's 12.8GB/s is going to be very close to real world numbers, while 360's ~11GB/s read and ~11GB/s write were rarely close to what developers actually saw from those devices. Of course we don't completely understand the memory of the Wii U yet, it seems full of memory cache, though its real competition is yet to be revealed but rumors point to much more capable devices.
 
He thinks, if a really powerful Computer is needed to render Galaxy in 1080p in Dolphin, that Wii Us games will look alot worse than games in Dolphin.

That is, ofcourse, totally bogus.

It means that the PowerPC 750 is a pain in the ass to emulate on an x86 or x64 PC, nothing more.
 

ozfunghi

Member
Just wondering, from what we know right now of the GPU how does it compare to the 720 rumored GPU if anyone knows?

VGLeaks: Durango GPU detailed

At the very least, it shows that the gap between WiiU and Durango will be nowhere near as large as that between Wii and 360, from a GPU perspective. Even if the pessimistic guestimates for WiiU's GPU turn out true (+/- 350 Gflops), its featureset is not lightyears removed of that of Durango (quite the opposite).
 

Meelow

Banned
At the very least, it shows that the gap between WiiU and Durango will be nowhere near as large as that between Wii and 360, from a GPU perspective. Even if the pessimistic guestimates for WiiU's GPU turn out true (+/- 350 Gflops), its featureset is not lightyears removed of that of Durango (quite the opposite).

Interesting, I'm really curious to see the analysis on the Wii U GPU too see a better difference between them.
 
I think whatever the GPU results end up being it's not going to be another Wii - PS360 situation again just because the WiiU's GPU isn't totally out of date.

Ports should definitely be possible but as i just said in the Durango GPU thread it looks like Nintendo really weren't bothered about next gen third party support other than the massive selling yearly installments of CoD, Fifa, Madden and Just Dance. If they were then WiiU would have had at least another 2GB's of Ram.

Any update on when we might get the numbers or will there be a new thread created when the results are in ?.

Cheers.
 

ozfunghi

Member
Ports should definitely be possible but as i just said in the Durango GPU thread it looks like Nintendo really weren't bothered about next gen third party support other than the massive selling yearly installments of CoD, Fifa, Madden and Just Dance. If they were then WiiU would have had at least another 2GB's of Ram.

I think they do want the "big guns" on WiiU. Resident Evil, Monster Hunter, CoD, GTA, NFS... whether they are going to be able to get those (esp GTA and the likes) remains to be seen. And then they will try to get 3rd party exclusives (Bayonetta II, W101, Lego City Stories, ZombiU...). Along with a bunch of indie devs, that seem to be on board. As an addition to their own software, that could prove to be enough (for me at least). But i think that was their plan, getting as much of the heavy hitters -known franchises- on board and then some exclusives. I don't think they really need the "average" PS360 game on their platform.

EDIT: but let's stay on topic.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I'm not really the best person to talk about specs with but is it not possible?
Z Cull is a read-modify-write op, i.e. you need to read the buffer's current content, compare it against the incoming value, and update the buffer with the new value. At 102.4GB/s and 51.2GSample/s you get 2 bytes/sample for the entire operation.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Z Cull is a read-modify-write op, i.e. you need to read the buffer's current content, compare it against the incoming value, and update the buffer with the new value. At 102.4GB/s and 51.2GSample/s you get 2 bytes/sample for the entire operation.

So in simple terms (that's me) they appear to be getting a quart into a pint pot?
 

Effect

Member
At the very least, it shows that the gap between WiiU and Durango will be nowhere near as large as that between Wii and 360, from a GPU perspective. Even if the pessimistic guestimates for WiiU's GPU turn out true (+/- 350 Gflops), its featureset is not lightyears removed of that of Durango (quite the opposite).

So if one wanted to really simplify this (using PC game graphic settings and to not create a headache for one's self do to lack of understanding) one could look at it this way? Wii U = medium settings and PS4/720 = High or Very High settings? At least when it comes to mutliplatforms. However when it comes to exclusives Wii U games could be seen as it running on High or Very High depending on art styles used while the other two should be as if games were running on Very High or Ultra?

To simplified or not even remotely in the area one should be thinking?
 

prag16

Banned
So if one wanted to really simplify this (using PC game graphic settings and to not create a headache for one's self do to lack of understanding) one could look at it this way? Wii U = medium settings and PS4/720 = High or Very High settings? At least when it comes to mutliplatforms. However when it comes to exclusives Wii U games could be seen as it running on High or Very High depending on art styles used while the other two should be as if games were running on Very High or Ultra?

To simplified or not even remotely in the area one should be thinking?

The gap might be a BIT larger than that, but certainly not anywhere close to what some of the Nintendo haters seem to be expecting. Hopefully those GPU shots will give us a lot more info.
 

Meelow

Banned
Z Cull is a read-modify-write op, i.e. you need to read the buffer's current content, compare it against the incoming value, and update the buffer with the new value. At 102.4GB/s and 51.2GSample/s you get 2 bytes/sample for the entire operation.

Interesting, I am getting really curious now to see the difference between the rumored 720 GPU and the Wii U GPU if the analyst works.
 

tkscz

Member
Thanks to this thread I now understand GPU architecture, and was able to read the X3's rumored GPU sheet.
 
So if one wanted to really simplify this (using PC game graphic settings and to not create a headache for one's self do to lack of understanding) one could look at it this way? Wii U = medium settings and PS4/720 = High or Very High settings? At least when it comes to mutliplatforms. However when it comes to exclusives Wii U games could be seen as it running on High or Very High depending on art styles used while the other two should be as if games were running on Very High or Ultra?

To simplified or not even remotely in the area one should be thinking?

Im by no means an expert either but i would guess if a third party developer put the same amount of staff and budget behind a game for each of the three next gen consoles it would turn out like this in PC terms -

WiiU (Low graphics / 720p / 30fps).
720 / PS4 (High graphics / 1080p / 30fps) or (High graphics / 720p / 60fps).

I really don't think third parties will bother with most games tbh on WiiU, esp with the poor launch sales of the console and the lack of even current gen ports. We just have to hope Nintendo can grab a few more big third party exclusives like Bayonetta 2 and Wonderful 101 in the future.

WiiU with 4GB's of Ram would have been SO much more appealing to third party developers but like i said Nintendo obviously aren't bothered about them.

Are we getting the GPU results tonight guys ?.
 

AzVal

Member
Thanks to this thread I now understand GPU architecture, and was able to read the X3's rumored GPU sheet.

I on the other side think I understand less. :( Isnt there a GPU/CPU/Memory architecture for Dummies?

On topic has Four storm got the image already?
 

tkscz

Member
Im by no means an expert either but i would guess if a third party developer put the same amount of staff and budget behind a game for each of the three next gen consoles it would turn out like this in PC terms -

WiiU (Low graphics / 720p / 30fps).
720 / PS4 (High graphics / 1080p / 30fps) or (High graphics / 720p / 60fps).

I really don't think third parties will bother with most games tbh on WiiU, esp with the poor launch sales of the console and the lack of even current gen ports. We just have to hope Nintendo can grab a few more big third party exclusives like Bayonetta 2 and Wonderful 101 in the future.

WiiU with 4GB's of Ram would have been SO much more appealing to third party developers but like i said Nintendo obviously aren't bothered about them.

Are we getting the GPU results tonight guys ?.

In that scenario what you'd see on the WiiU would be closer to medium than low. It's different when it's not a straight port. Now, if it were made for say the 360/PS3, and then ported to WiiU/PS4/Xbox3, then those would be the results.
 
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