Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
Quote said:
There's nothing wrong with cheaper gear. I just would prefer if there was a dedicated "budget audio" thread and this one could be left to higher quality gear.
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Audiophile quality PC speakers
- Thread starter nitewulf
- Start date
- Status
There's nothing wrong with cheaper gear. I just would prefer if there was a dedicated "budget audio" thread and this one could be left to higher quality gear.
Subwoofer:
Rythmik F12G
Preamp: Emotiva USP-1, Amp: Emotiva XPA-2, DAC: Audio GD-DAC19MK3
Speaker: Dali Mentor 2
I don't have the ideal set-up for acoustics due to the huge entertainment center in the middle of the room that I want to eventually replace with a much smaller set-up... but the speakers still sound fantastic
Rythmik F12G
Preamp: Emotiva USP-1, Amp: Emotiva XPA-2, DAC: Audio GD-DAC19MK3
Speaker: Dali Mentor 2
I don't have the ideal set-up for acoustics due to the huge entertainment center in the middle of the room that I want to eventually replace with a much smaller set-up... but the speakers still sound fantastic
Well here's how it works in my set-up.
My DAC is the central unit to which I have my ps3 and computer hooked up to. PS3 is hooked to the DAC via optical and the PC is hooked up via RCA into the coaxial port of the DAC.
Just in case you weren't sure, DAC stands for Digital/Analog Converter and basically takes the digital signal from a digital source and converts it into an analog signal for the speaker.
The DAC is then hooked into the preamplifier and passes the converted analog signal into it. Finally, the preamplifier is hooked into the the amplifier. Speakers are hooked directly to the amplifier. The subwoofer is hooked to the preamplifier's 'sub out'. You have to be careful with preamplifiers because not all of them have 'sub outs'. If you're going to get monitors, you should look for a sub with a sub out so you can eventually supplement your monitors with a subwoofer to provide the low-end. A preamp with a sub-out also allows you to use its high pass filter, meaning you send the middle and higher frequencies only to the monitors and the lower frequency to the subs. This takes a lot of burden of producing bass notes off of the monitors and allows them to focus on the mids and highs where they excel. The sub isn't hooked to the amp, but rather the preamp because it has its own amplifier built into it.
My DAC is the central unit to which I have my ps3 and computer hooked up to. PS3 is hooked to the DAC via optical and the PC is hooked up via RCA into the coaxial port of the DAC.
Just in case you weren't sure, DAC stands for Digital/Analog Converter and basically takes the digital signal from a digital source and converts it into an analog signal for the speaker.
The DAC is then hooked into the preamplifier and passes the converted analog signal into it. Finally, the preamplifier is hooked into the the amplifier. Speakers are hooked directly to the amplifier. The subwoofer is hooked to the preamplifier's 'sub out'. You have to be careful with preamplifiers because not all of them have 'sub outs'. If you're going to get monitors, you should look for a sub with a sub out so you can eventually supplement your monitors with a subwoofer to provide the low-end. A preamp with a sub-out also allows you to use its high pass filter, meaning you send the middle and higher frequencies only to the monitors and the lower frequency to the subs. This takes a lot of burden of producing bass notes off of the monitors and allows them to focus on the mids and highs where they excel. The sub isn't hooked to the amp, but rather the preamp because it has its own amplifier built into it.
kevm3 said:
Oh wow, thank you that clears a lot of things up. Right now I just have a small DAC/Preamp combo hooked up to a pair of SwanM200MKIIIs, but I've been looking into upgrading to separate DAC and preamp before I leap to upgrading to monitors. I wasn't aware that the sub out was based off the preamp, that's good to know when I start researching. Thanks again.
Winged Creature
Member
Keep you dac/preamp for now, upgrade the monitors and get a power amp that will give you the biggest improvment in sound.
scorcho said:
Honestly, I'd just put an extra $100 down and grab a HSU STF-2. This is one of those brands that get rave reviews. I was considering a HSU before I got the Rythmik. With audio equipment, just save a little extra so you won't have regrets.
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html
This sub by emotiva is another option:
http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub10.shtm
SVS gets nice reviews as well. If you definitely want to stay near $200, this might be an option for you:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000092TT0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Alucrid said:Oh wow, thank you that clears a lot of things up. Right now I just have a small DAC/Preamp combo hooked up to a pair of SwanM200MKIIIs, but I've been looking into upgrading to separate DAC and preamp before I leap to upgrading to monitors. I wasn't aware that the sub out was based off the preamp, that's good to know when I start researching. Thanks again.
There are a few ways subs can be hooked up to the system, and much of it is dependent on the preamp. You will find that there are preamplifiers with or without sub-outs..
The Adcom GFP 750 is an example of a preamp without a 'sub-out'.
Here is an example of
An example of a preamp with a sub-out is the Emotiva usp-1:
Looking at the picture on the Emotiva, if you gander at the right, you will see something called 'Full Range'. This is what essentially preamps without 'sub-out's do. They send the whole audio frequency to whatever is next to receive it. Next to that, you will see an option called 'high-pass' and then 'sub-out'. This is a 'high pass filter' and it can exist on the sub or it can be on the preamp or both depending on the actual model of each.
The purpose of a high-pass filter is to filter out frequencies before sending it along. If you look at the Emotiva, you will see two knobs... one is above the 'sub-out' output and the other is above the 'high-pass' output. You are able to adjust which portion of the audio range you want sent to the sub and which you want sent to the speakers. This is important because if you are sending a full range signal to monitors, it is overburdening those smaller drivers by forcing it to do the bass work. By removing the load of the deep bass from the monitors, it makes them sound a good deal clearer because they can focus on the midrange and high frequencies, which monitors excel at. It also allows you to specify which range of the bass you want the sub to handle. Without high-pass filters, your monitors will be overburdened trying to produce the full range of the audio spectrum and you will also get bass overlap meaning the monitors will be producing bass, but the sub will be producing some of those same upper bass frequencies. This overlap will make things muddy sounding because there is too much bass.
Now, if your preamp doesn't have a high-pass filter, make sure you get a sub that does have it. Then hook the full-range outs from the preamp to the 'line-in' of the sub. Here is an example of the back of a sub's plate amp:
At the top you will see the 'line-in' and 'line-out' inputs and outputs. You connect the interconnects from the preamp into the line-ins of the sub and then you connect two more interconnects from the sub's line out to the amplifier. You then adjust the high pass filter on the sub to your liking.
With most decent monitors, subs are recommended to be crossed over at around 80 hz. If you have a smaller monitor, you may have to cross over at 100 or even 120hz if the sub supports it due to them having smaller drivers and not really being that good at producing bass. The reason it is recommended to cross over at 80hz is because above that mark, you start becoming able to locate the bass, meaning it sounds like it's coming from the sub. With a high quality sub and a cross over at 80 or below, it becomes hard to tell that the sub is even on because you don't really hear the bass coming from the sub. It just seamlessly blends in with the music.
scorcho said:
What do you feel you will be using the sub for the most, music or movie watching/gaming? Just for further clarification, with subs, people like to classify them into two categories... There are the more 'musical' and 'accurate' subs and then there are the less-accurate 'output monsters' which are typically more for home theater use (movie watching, etc.). "Musical subs" obviously excel at music, typically meaning they are faster and more accurate sounding, while home theatee subs do a better job at pressurizing rooms (have more output).
These are by no means 'official' categories because different models of subs from different manufacturers typically have different performance traits and there are subs that are very musical with a lot of output.
The HSU for its price definitely seems like an excellent option. Read this post on how one person reacted when he added it to his system:
http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/1/214689.html
thesoapster
Member
I've moved my audio equipment (Dynaudio Audience 42, Yamaha amp) to another floor with my Roland V-Drums. I was planning on moving my system/desk as well so I'd use the one set for everything, but I really don't want to move my desk. Unfortunately I love playing drums using the Dynaudios...sounds so good.
So, this has gotten me to start thinking about maybe getting an upgrade for my main music/movies/games system. I still have the V-DAC, but everything else is gone. Any suggestions? The room is about a 9x8, so not too big. The sound presence from the bookshelf speakers was more than enough and sounded great. This has me initially thinking against towers. I had been using an integrated amp. What equipment is "the next level"? I see mention of pre-amps and power amps, but is that all? What's the advantage really of having this over integrated? Should I get a higher spec DAC?
I don't have a budget in mind on amps etc, but I'd like the speaker set to not exceed $1500. Any suggestions?
So, this has gotten me to start thinking about maybe getting an upgrade for my main music/movies/games system. I still have the V-DAC, but everything else is gone. Any suggestions? The room is about a 9x8, so not too big. The sound presence from the bookshelf speakers was more than enough and sounded great. This has me initially thinking against towers. I had been using an integrated amp. What equipment is "the next level"? I see mention of pre-amps and power amps, but is that all? What's the advantage really of having this over integrated? Should I get a higher spec DAC?
I don't have a budget in mind on amps etc, but I'd like the speaker set to not exceed $1500. Any suggestions?
thesoapster said:
I'd recommend against floorstanders since your room isn't all that large and they can overwhelm your room.
My personal preference would be to go into separates. I'd also supplement those bookshelves with a subwoofer to get the rest of the lower range of the frequency that is cut off from your bookshelves. You will also get a nice improvement in clarity after taking off bass duties from them.
You have a budget of $1,500 plus whatever you get from selling your old equipment, you can get some pretty significant upgrades.
The advantage of separates is that they are modular and you can interchange things with ease. Most receivers are like the 'consoles' of audio world-- quick, simple solutions for those who just want to play some music. Going into separates gives you much more customization and the potential to realize significant increases in sound quality. With receivers, you are dealing with 'jack of all trades'. Separates are specialists.
Your DAC seems decent for now. Amp and preamp and sub would seem to give you the best gains.
If you want a ton of headroom in your amplifier for eventual speaker upgrades down the line, you could grab an Emotiva XPA 2 for $700. For the preamp, the USP is 400. That's $1100. With the remaining funds, you can grab a subwoofer. Instead of the XPA 2, you could grab the UPA 2, which is sort of like the 'little brother' for $329.
Is this going to be a primarily music or a home theater/gaming type of system?
thesoapster
Member
kevm3 said:
Thanks for the reply and recommendations.
The old equipment is not getting sold or used at all in this application (all of that is on my electric drums now). So, I need some new bookshelf speakers. My budget for those alone I'd like to set at about $1500 (or less, no need to be that much). Any idea on some good bookshelf speakers? I enjoy the ones I've had here and on the drums, Dynaudio Audience 42s, but I'd like to get something a bit higher spec. I lean more towards a 2.0 setup, but I'd be open to try a small subwoofer I guess. I just don't want it to be "overpowered" like a lot of cheap 2.1-5.1 setups are.
thesoapster said:
If you're not afraid of buying used, you can save a ton of money. You can move up in the Dynaudio line and get the Focus 110 for $1,000, which is the speakers I believe Nitewulf has.
Dynaudio Focus 110
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1292907388&/Dynaudio-Focus-110-Super-Monit
B&W 805S
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1294245259&/B-W-Nautilus-805-spkrs-beautif
Winged Creature has B&W's so you might want to ask him about the sound signature of B&Ws.
I would definitely go for a 2.1 setup. You will get much better quality for your given budget compared to a 5.1 set-up. And down the line, you can always get another pair of speakers and then turn into a 5.1 setup down the line. But ALWAYS buy quality up front. In regards to the sub issue, I understand where your concerns, but a high quality sub is nothing like what you hear in those car systems. They sound nothing like huge boomboxes that go bmmm bmm bmmm and just shake things. A high-quality sub is more like a lower frequency speaker. They will add impact to drum hits, more heft to the piano, make deeper voices sound much more solid, etc. There is no boomy bass to be had.
If you are getting monitors/bookshelves, you definitely want to get a pair of stands to go along with them. This can improve the sound a great deal. Good luck!
thesoapster said:
If you combine your budget, you can get the NHT-XD. It's pretty much a 'package.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1294717241&/NHT-Xd-Active-speaker-system--
it comes with speakers, stands, sub and amp (the speakers are active).
it doesn't have to be. the signals, ie, the interconnect cables could go to the sub itself (if your pre amp doesn't have sub outs) from the pre amp (or integrated amp), and then passed to the monitors from the sub w/o touching the signal. thats how most connections are.Alucrid said:Oh wow, thank you that clears a lot of things up. Right now I just have a small DAC/Preamp combo hooked up to a pair of SwanM200MKIIIs, but I've been looking into upgrading to separate DAC and preamp before I leap to upgrading to monitors. I wasn't aware that the sub out was based off the preamp, that's good to know when I start researching. Thanks again.
Kev, how are you outputting coax from the PC?
agreed. "audiophile" defines a certain class, and the discussion in this thread should be kept to that class. technical questions are absolutely fine i think, but this thread shouldn't turn into a recommendation thread about budget PC speakers.
i have the focus 140's the bigger brothers of the 110s.
actually for your room size, i'd suggest against floor standers (may be a small two way tower, but that's about it), and i will disagree with kev and say a high quality integrated will be absolutely fine. there are no inherent benefits of going the separate route IMO, but it gives you a better option to optimize and customize the sound signature to your liking, which is a great advantage. but quality integrateds will give you pre-amp outs, so that if you wanna add a seperate power amp, you can do so.
share what sound signatures you "like", and i can recommend speakers based on that. do you play compressed audio like mp3s, or you play non compressed? what type of music do you like metal/rock, synth-pop/electro/ acoustic/jazz? and do you fiddle with EQs? do you prefer the bass kick? do you prefer a crispy treble? or do you prefer smooth signatures?
in fact if you like the dynaudio sound, their house sound doesn't change, it gets more and more revealing as you go up the chain. so the speakers sound more and more high resolution, you hear more stuff depending on source and associated gear. but your room size certainly limits your options as well.
actually for your room size, i'd suggest against floor standers (may be a small two way tower, but that's about it), and i will disagree with kev and say a high quality integrated will be absolutely fine. there are no inherent benefits of going the separate route IMO, but it gives you a better option to optimize and customize the sound signature to your liking, which is a great advantage. but quality integrateds will give you pre-amp outs, so that if you wanna add a seperate power amp, you can do so.
share what sound signatures you "like", and i can recommend speakers based on that. do you play compressed audio like mp3s, or you play non compressed? what type of music do you like metal/rock, synth-pop/electro/ acoustic/jazz? and do you fiddle with EQs? do you prefer the bass kick? do you prefer a crispy treble? or do you prefer smooth signatures?
in fact if you like the dynaudio sound, their house sound doesn't change, it gets more and more revealing as you go up the chain. so the speakers sound more and more high resolution, you hear more stuff depending on source and associated gear. but your room size certainly limits your options as well.
Snytbaggen
Member
I know this isn't really a "PC speaker" question, but... My flatmate bought a harman/kardon hk 3490 and we're running it from computer->HDMI->tv->optical bypass->amp. We get a stereo signal to the TV and can plug in our headphones to the TV and get stereo sound. However, the channel only receives the right channel and plays it as mono. It's not the TV that's wrong, it has to be the amp since I have the same problem with the optical cable running directly from the computer into the amp. Both speakers are on and the amp says "stereo" on the display. Do you guys have any idea of what could cause this? We have also tried with different computers, all with the same result.
EDIT: I've tested some more now, and despite which channel I use and if I use analog/digital sound I can only hear the right channel in mono, despite the display saying "stereo" and getting sound from both speakers. And also, if I turn the sound up real high I can faintly hear the left channel, but it's distorted.
EDIT2: Okay, now I feel like a total idiot :lol I checked the back of the amp and saw that I had plugged both speakers into the right channel, on the two different speaker channels... it never occurred to me to think about what "speaker 1&2" meant on the display... I rewired them correctly, disabled "speaker 2" and now it works perfectly. What baffles me is that we've watched several movies and listened to countless songs with only the right channel :lol
EDIT: I've tested some more now, and despite which channel I use and if I use analog/digital sound I can only hear the right channel in mono, despite the display saying "stereo" and getting sound from both speakers. And also, if I turn the sound up real high I can faintly hear the left channel, but it's distorted.
EDIT2: Okay, now I feel like a total idiot :lol I checked the back of the amp and saw that I had plugged both speakers into the right channel, on the two different speaker channels... it never occurred to me to think about what "speaker 1&2" meant on the display... I rewired them correctly, disabled "speaker 2" and now it works perfectly. What baffles me is that we've watched several movies and listened to countless songs with only the right channel :lol
nitewulf said:
I'm using one of these:
Goes into the USB port and you plug an RCA cable from it to the coax in of the DAC.
How are those dynaudios still holding up? You still liking them as much as the first day you got them?
Speaking of the HK3490, I still have one on hand that I'm selling for $150 + shipping for any interested gaffers.
For around $200, this seems to be getting decent reviews. Not 'under' $200, but around that ballpark:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000092TT0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000092TT0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Winged Creature
Member
thesoapster said:
The B&W CM5's i have are about $1500, but im sure you can get them for less. I'm very happy with them.
Make sure you demo a whole bunch of speakers what i like you may not like as much. When you get into higher end audio everything sounds good but it all boils down to preference
sharkmuncher
Member
mr stroke said:
The Bic F12 is a good sub that can sometimes be found for <$200 if you shop around a bit.
mr stroke
Member
Looking at a new HT sub now(less than $500)
any recommendations. Currently using a Def Tech pro cinema 8" sub in a small room
any one here have any experience with Emotiva Subs?
http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub12.shtm
?
any recommendations. Currently using a Def Tech pro cinema 8" sub in a small room
any one here have any experience with Emotiva Subs?
http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub12.shtm
?
Mr Nightman
Banned
Anybody have any experience with these speakers systems?
Cyber Acoustics 80 Watt 5.1
Logitech 75 Watt 5.1
Logitech 70 Watt 5.1
Just wanting a decent Audio System to get for under a hundred for my desktop, any opinions?
Cyber Acoustics 80 Watt 5.1
Logitech 75 Watt 5.1
Logitech 70 Watt 5.1
Just wanting a decent Audio System to get for under a hundred for my desktop, any opinions?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
Castle two-way floorstanders. They're glorious and sound the same no matter the cabling.kevm3 said:
Audiophilia is nothing but snake oil. Properly designed circuitry sounds the same - there's no benefit going from integrated receivers to separate pre/amp combo besides bragging rights. And Yamaha's receivers rock.
And by the way, no one can tell apart cables in double blind tests. They are a scam.
Witchfinder General
punched Wheelchair Mike
Bitmap Frogs said:
What a load of horse shit. Not that it's surprising coming from someone who actually thinks Castle speakers sound good.
Cables are snake oil for sure. Can't say I'm a believer in high end amps or power conditioners either. My dad swears the shit makes a difference, and I just don't hear it. I'm convinced it's placebo.
Either way, at least I get to listen to his ridiculously awesome speakers: B&W 800 Diamonds.
Either way, at least I get to listen to his ridiculously awesome speakers: B&W 800 Diamonds.
mr stroke said:
For that budget, I'd take a look at something by Hsu or SVS. I'll search around. You can get a nice deal more for your money by buying used. I haven't heard much about the emotiva sub. I think their amp and preamp are very nice for the price, but I'll have to check out for more information about their subs.
Hsu has a couple of nice options for around the $500 price range
VTF-1 ($450)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html
VTF-2 MK3 ($550)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html
The difference is the VTF-2 extends down to 18hz compared to VTF-1 at 25 hz and has a larger woofer and more powerful amp.
When it comes to audio equipment, I would say just save up the extra bit to get the better model. VTF-2 comes in at a hundred more but over the long term that you are using the sub, you don't want to have any regrets. I was actually considering a VTF-2 until I went with the Rythmik, which is more for music than home theater.
VTF-1 ($450)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html
VTF-2 MK3 ($550)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2-mk3.html
The difference is the VTF-2 extends down to 18hz compared to VTF-1 at 25 hz and has a larger woofer and more powerful amp.
When it comes to audio equipment, I would say just save up the extra bit to get the better model. VTF-2 comes in at a hundred more but over the long term that you are using the sub, you don't want to have any regrets. I was actually considering a VTF-2 until I went with the Rythmik, which is more for music than home theater.
milanbaros
Member?
Witchfinder General said:
Eugh, I bet you're a blast to hang around.
Mr Nightman
Banned
I dont even know much about nice speakers, but the castle ones still seem nice, you come off as a bit of a picky jerk no offense :lolWitchfinder General said:
Bitmap Frogs said:
There is snake oil and there are bargains in audio just like in any other field.
Cables aren't a scam, depending on the price you pay for them, and they are more of a tweak and toner of the sound in comparison to the possible dramatic shift of sound in speakers. I have firsthand experience with cables in my system, so I know the difference they can make. It's not placebo, and I could easily resell these if I felt they didn't improve anything.
In theory all amps should sound the same, but that's theory because they all have different levels of distortion. Tube amps typically have their own signature in comparison to solid state, and there are also differences between amps within the tube or solid state category. Tube amps can be tweaked by changing out the tubes for different brands.
There isn't an inherent advantage in sound quality in 'separates' compared to integrated, as there are fantastic integrateds out there, but the main advantage of separates is the flexibility they offer. You can update one component at a time instead of having to get rid of the whole integrated and buying a whole new integrated. You can also mix and match amps, preamps, etc., to find the necessary sound synergy.
In order to tell a difference between components, the particular speaker has to be revealing enough. It's like saying there is no difference between Blu-Ray and DVD while watching both on an SDTV. If you have very revealing speakers, it's not hard to tell the shift in quality when you start pairing the speaker with high quality equipment that it has synergy with. The key in audio is synergy. More expensive doesn't always necessarily mean better. Knowing which equipment works with your particular speakers to produce the sound you desire is key, and that ultimately comes through experience.
mr stroke
Member
kevm3 said:
looking at the 12" HSU sub and it seems like a really nice sub, Good reviews on their products too.
I currently have a Def Tech Pro Cinema 60 sub(small 150w 8") I could add two more(for a total of 3 small subs) for the same price as the HSU 12". What will give me better results?
kevm3 said:
Most of your post is reasonable, but two things are malarkey. Having first hand experience is irrelevant because you hearing a difference doesn't mean a difference exists. Although you are right that expensive cables aren't a complete waste of money because you can just pass them on to the next sucker. The other thing is this "synergy" bullshit, where people think you can combine a "laid back" amp with "forward" speakers to get a "balanced" sound, or whatever, as if audio components were liquids of different temperatures. Accurate speakers paired with a non-defective amp will produce accurate sound. If you don't like it, why not use a parametric eq and raise/lower certain frequencies to get the same effect as you would by swapping speakers or using a shitty tube amp?
dr3upmushroom
Banned
I'm thinking about upgrading from my AV40s, I really liked them until I got to hear the BX5As for an extended session and now I regret cheaping out. AV40's still seem great for the price, but I listen to enough music that I've realized that spending a few hundred bucks on speakers isn't a waste.
I've been reading a lot of recommendations recently against buying anything advertised as "computer speakers," or basically any active speakers since it's supposedly more economical to buy a pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp.
My plan now is to sell the AV40s for ~$100 and upgrade to Swan M200MKIIIs. If I could get a pair of bookshelf speakers for around the same price and they'd sound better, I would actually much prefer going that route and having more upgrade options going forward. However, to me it seems like it's going to be impossible to get speakers and an amp for less than $800 or so.
Hopefully I'm wrong. I haven't looked at pricing much, but apparently Energy speakers are some of the most well-regarded bookshelf speakers. Would it be possible to get a pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp for $600 tops or am I right in thinking that active speakers like the Swans are a better value?
Well, after doing a quick Amazon search, apparently it is possible to get a pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp for around the price of the Swans, but how would these speakers and this amp compare?
I've been reading a lot of recommendations recently against buying anything advertised as "computer speakers," or basically any active speakers since it's supposedly more economical to buy a pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp.
My plan now is to sell the AV40s for ~$100 and upgrade to Swan M200MKIIIs. If I could get a pair of bookshelf speakers for around the same price and they'd sound better, I would actually much prefer going that route and having more upgrade options going forward. However, to me it seems like it's going to be impossible to get speakers and an amp for less than $800 or so.
Hopefully I'm wrong. I haven't looked at pricing much, but apparently Energy speakers are some of the most well-regarded bookshelf speakers. Would it be possible to get a pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp for $600 tops or am I right in thinking that active speakers like the Swans are a better value?
Well, after doing a quick Amazon search, apparently it is possible to get a pair of bookshelf speakers and an amp for around the price of the Swans, but how would these speakers and this amp compare?
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
kevm3 said:
Look, I don't know how to put it, but electricity isn't some magical hocus pocus. It doesn't care wether the cable is gold, silver or copper. As long as the relevant values are OK, the signal will travel fine. The most a cable can do is to not mess up the signal - which 30c/meter cabling does. The proof is cables do not survive ABX blind listening tests - that's why audiophiles have tried to downplay these tests for years. There's a good writeup at Roger Russell's site (he was an engineer at McIntosh) explaining why cables make no difference but yet why sometimes a difference might be felt: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
kevm3 said:
Bollocks. The typical THD (Total Harmonic Distortion) of a properly designed piece of audio equipment like the Yamaha A-S1000 is 0.015%. Any value below 1% is inaudible. So either you claim to posess the superpower of super-hearing or any difference you hear is either the result of placebo or volume difference: your brain and ears will trick you to believe anything louder sounds better - that's why the only way to compare audio equipment is with voltage measuring to ensure equal levels of volume.
kevm3 said:
Poorly designed tube amps introduce such enormous amounts of distortion that it can actually be heard. That's why I state that properly designed circuitry (such as circuitry that doesn't introduce boatloads of distortion) sounds the same. Again, anything you can't hear in a ABX blind test doesn't exist. Heck, there's people making properly made tube amps that do not produce distortion - it isn't tubes making sound this way or the other, it's the result of poorly designed electrical circuits.
kevm3 said:
Yeah, it's more flexible, that's true.
However sound synergy is an audiophile myth.
kevm3 said:
Synergy does not exist. Proper circuitry won't mess up the signal enough so there's nothing to mix and match since whatever the results, we can't hear them. Synergy only matters when talking about electronics screwing the signal enough that we can hear it - and such devices should be trashed.
There's a spanish team called Matrix Hi-Fi dedicated amongst other activites to conduct double blind tests in order to prove or falsify audiophile myths. These guys started as hardcore audiophiles (heck, the gear their use is their own) attempting to eliminate the placebo effect in order to find the perfect equipment. Guess what? they're no longer audiophiles.
You can see their results at www.matrixhifi.com (click on the red pill, then click on "pruebas"). Although the page is in spanish the component names are international so it's easy to follow - and guess what every single test came up negative, but one. As an example, no one could tell the difference between Mark Levinson 333 and some off-the-shelf Yamaha receiver - and before you ask, everything else was audiophile level (source, pre-amp, cabling, speakers).
all of this "properly designed circuitry" is taking into assumption the respective devices, ie, a tube vs a transistor, or even two transistors, or all capacitors are exactly alike.
which is never the case.
passive devices are never manufactured alike, so how can two cirucits which include the same components be absoultely alike?
a tube doesn't pass the signal the same way as a transistor, semiconductor devices have a delay...due to the nature of the semiconductor and the way charge builds up. how can you compare a semiconductor amp to a tube amp just because they both "amplify" the signal? they dont work the same way.
whether all of that equates to listeners being able to discnern the differences may be a subjective issue, but this "properly designed circuits" argument is bollocks.
which is never the case.
passive devices are never manufactured alike, so how can two cirucits which include the same components be absoultely alike?
a tube doesn't pass the signal the same way as a transistor, semiconductor devices have a delay...due to the nature of the semiconductor and the way charge builds up. how can you compare a semiconductor amp to a tube amp just because they both "amplify" the signal? they dont work the same way.
whether all of that equates to listeners being able to discnern the differences may be a subjective issue, but this "properly designed circuits" argument is bollocks.
Bitmap Frogs
Mr. Community
nitewulf said:
Because when the end result of all that variables is devices with distortion no human can hear it doesn't matter anymore. And for the record, manufacturing tube amps with inaudible distortions is possible - no matter the differences between solid state and tubes.
That's the key - it might not work the same way but as long as the result is THD's below 0.0XX, proper transient handling, low noise floor and no parasites two devices will sound the same. Because they are as perfect as our imperfect ears will consider them.
And what the industry and the fandom will never tollerate is that making audio devices that our imperfect ears will consider perfect is dirt cheap these days. Dirt cheap. This ain't the 60's anymore, anyone can afford the stuff.
At that point, either people summit to logic or start saying weird stuff, like articles on Stereophile and other audiophile mags about the "golden ear" of audiophiles allowing these super-human entities to listen things no one can.
pj said:
System synergy is one of the hugest factors alongside room acoustics in producing sound. There's nothing that's nonsense about it. If it was as simple as putting a decently designed amp with a decently designed pair of speakers to produce world-class sound, there wouldn't be nearly as many speaker/electronics companies and they would all be selling commodity product for extremely cheap prices.
Some speakers are more sensitive than others, meaning they respond with much more volume compared to a certain amount of power from an amp. Ask anyone who has had a few pairs of headphones. Not all headphones respond to an amp the same. Grados are easier to drive compared to Sennheiser HD600s. The same thing for speakers.
People may plug the same pair of headphones into an Ipod and then a Zune and talk about the sound differences between the two. Would plugging a pair of headphones into an Ipod as compared to a receiver sound exactly the same? The Ipod is essentially a DAC/with an amplifier on it just as a receiver is. Of course they wouldn't sound the same. That's just one example of how not all equipment sounds the same.
Would you say that your speaker setup sounds exactly the same as a $300 boombox that I can go into Best Buy and purchase, since that is essentially two properly working speakers attached to a competent receiver? If that's the case, then why did you buy expensive speakers instead of going for the much cheaper, 'competent' combo?
Bitmap Frogs said:
So a pair of Bose headphones or Dre Beats headphones plugged into an ipod will sound the same as a pair of Sennheiser HD800 plugged into a Woo Audio amp paired with a $2,000 DAC, since most cheap equipment is now so competently designed as to eliminate noticeable distortion?
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