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Why do japanese gamers hate freedom?
- Thread starter U5230
- Start date
Way to stereotype. And, sorry Him, but your argument is pretty stupid on its face.
Japanese gamers hate FFXII? It sold more in Japan than it will in America, so so much for that. Some gamers posted complaints? Yeah, so? You read GAF lately? That's all the hardcore forum-posting American gamers do, too. "Bad art!" "Too hard!" "Too easy!" "Too short!" "Not a game!"
As it is, plenty of non-linear/difficult games have sold way more in Japan than they have elsewhere. You can look at the sales for games like Berwick Saga, or look at the continued success of the SaGa series (for ****'s sake, Unlimited SaGa sold over 400k there!). Shin Megami Tensei is way the **** more popular in Japan than in America -- Nocturne sold ~323k there versus 55k in the US, for instance.
And say whatever you want about Animal Crossing, but it's not linear, and you're not being told what to do.
Even as western development grows, most of the games that are lauded for their difficulty/freeform nonlinearity are STILL being made in Japan, and they wouldn't be getting made there if Japanese gamers, first and foremost, didn't provide the sales for them to be made.
Japanese gamers hate FFXII? It sold more in Japan than it will in America, so so much for that. Some gamers posted complaints? Yeah, so? You read GAF lately? That's all the hardcore forum-posting American gamers do, too. "Bad art!" "Too hard!" "Too easy!" "Too short!" "Not a game!"
As it is, plenty of non-linear/difficult games have sold way more in Japan than they have elsewhere. You can look at the sales for games like Berwick Saga, or look at the continued success of the SaGa series (for ****'s sake, Unlimited SaGa sold over 400k there!). Shin Megami Tensei is way the **** more popular in Japan than in America -- Nocturne sold ~323k there versus 55k in the US, for instance.
And say whatever you want about Animal Crossing, but it's not linear, and you're not being told what to do.
Even as western development grows, most of the games that are lauded for their difficulty/freeform nonlinearity are STILL being made in Japan, and they wouldn't be getting made there if Japanese gamers, first and foremost, didn't provide the sales for them to be made.
distantmantra
Member
Himuro said:
Final Fantasy IV was made much easier for it's North American release.
Lazy vs Crazy
Member
I dunno, I'm American and I prefer linear games.
Is that bad?
Is that bad?
distantmantra said:
..and Devil May Cry 3 was made harder.
They dont hate difficult/non-linear games, but by contrast I think the hardcore Western gamers are now much more accepting of the afforementioned games. Alot of Japanese developers realize this (especially Team Ninja and Capcom), and they do balance some of their games accordingly.
ethelred said:
That's cause there's nothing to do oh snapz!11
I actually like easy games with smooth mechanics that feel fun. I feel Tomb Raider Legend was pretty easy, but I had a hell of a lot more fun swinging from pole to pole and from vine to vine than I did in, say, a harder game like DMC3 (even though I'm finding that to be fairly enjoyable too).
I think it is less about difficulty than it is about mechanics. I like to play games that feel smooth. Since I suck at DMC, it's mechanics feel wonky and I dislike the difficulty. I'm sure there are pros that play it like butter.
Don't turn this into a hate fest.
I agree with the original poster's observation. The average Japanese gamers don't seem to like non-linearity and likes to be told what to do.
You know why they hate Western games? It can be non-linear and sometimes it doesn't tell you what you have to do exactly....but isnt that part of the fun in a game? Exploration, trial and error...taking risks?
IMO, Japanese game designs are becoming archaic, and strange as it may sound coming from a Japanese, I love Western games more than Japanese ones in recent years.
I agree with the original poster's observation. The average Japanese gamers don't seem to like non-linearity and likes to be told what to do.
You know why they hate Western games? It can be non-linear and sometimes it doesn't tell you what you have to do exactly....but isnt that part of the fun in a game? Exploration, trial and error...taking risks?
IMO, Japanese game designs are becoming archaic, and strange as it may sound coming from a Japanese, I love Western games more than Japanese ones in recent years.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Himuro said:
I am not going to talk about the topic, because I just see it as silly stereotyping but where the hell did you get those numbers? I mean wtf, how do you do a study about that....
<is in the wrong field...>
Oh and didn't you just finish Shenmue? ;p
Gearharaden
Banned
I hate non-linear games. Sandbox shit needs to die. I mean, in RPGs yeah it'd be a good way to spice things up but I'm sick of every NA-made game capitalizing off of the GTA formula, badly at that.
What happened to games where all you could do was move in one direction? I don't like being told what to do in a game, but I like it so where I know where the hell I'm going and I don't have to wander around doing busywork until I actually continue the story.
A game can be non-linear, but we push it way too far over here with that sandbox gameplay mechanic bullshit.
What happened to games where all you could do was move in one direction? I don't like being told what to do in a game, but I like it so where I know where the hell I'm going and I don't have to wander around doing busywork until I actually continue the story.
A game can be non-linear, but we push it way too far over here with that sandbox gameplay mechanic bullshit.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Hooray, another "lolz Japanese only liek nongames" thread, but with a brand new hat!
By "Japan hates FFXII," did you mistake hate for love? Because the game sold like crazy. Unless you're taking postings on a message board as indicative of an entire country, in which case, American gamers hate Shenmue.
By "Japan hates FFXII," did you mistake hate for love? Because the game sold like crazy. Unless you're taking postings on a message board as indicative of an entire country, in which case, American gamers hate Shenmue.
Gearharaden
Banned
And as far as difficulty goes, if the game becomes so difficult that it breaks the action up or plot progression, it's too difficult.
Strangely enough, Ninja Gaiden never had me stalling.
Black Ninjas are meh pals.
Strangely enough, Ninja Gaiden never had me stalling.
Black Ninjas are meh pals.Red Blaster
Member
Most so called non-linear games are actually veiled linear games in my experience.
BigBoss said:
I googled for an image of "soulmates," but this the results were just a little too strange.
I don't really hate difficulty, but excessive difficulty can turn me off a game. I gave up on NG. The game was so difficult for me in parts that I just didn't want to continue. I should try again. I don't think of myself as terrible at games, but after struggling with the camera (again mechanics) and the DUKE (something out of Itagaki's control, of course), I just gave up.
Himuro said:
How many Japanese gamers do you know? Or do you mean that most Japanese gamers that post on message boards are too narrow in their tastes? Because maybe they are, but I'd say most American gamers that post on message boards (if not most American gamers, period) are every bit as narrow-minded in their tastes, if not radically moreso.
Himuro said:
Oh really?
If you look at the Final Fantasy series this gen versus the past gen, we've gotten FFX-2 (hugely non-linear), XII (more difficult and non-linear), XI (certainly not a linear game!) versus VII, VIII, Tactics, and IX. So how is FF becoming more linear and easy?
Unlimited and Romancing SaGa sold very well (very difficult/non-linear series). You've got Bumpy Trot, Fire Emblem's resurgence, Berwick Saga, PSO, Devil Summoner and SMT doing well, Grandia III being every bit as linear but much more difficult as its predecessors, Suikoden III introducing plenty of non-linearity into a once solidly linear series, the Tales series being much more non-linear this gen than last, Valkyrie Profile 2 which seems more difficult than the first one, the Shadow Hearts games doing a nice job creating challenging action-based combat systems...
A trend of JRPGs becoming easier and more-linear? Where the **** are you getting this? JRPGs have never been particularly difficult or non-linear -- if anything the trend is in the opposite direction as you describe.
Himuro said:
It sounds like you're confusing "wander around a world map until you get to the right location to trigger the next story sequence" with "non-linearity."
FFX-2 has the point and click world map you're talking about. Is it more linear than FFVIII because of that? No, of course not.
And I dunno which RPGs you've been playing, but it's simply not the case that 95% of the JRPGs released in the US this gen used point-and-click world maps (where plenty of JRPGs did use those last gen, like the Breath of Fire series -- which this gen evolved into one of the most challenging RPGs ever despite being 100% linear).
Random battles need to die a horrible death. I am *so* done with random battles in every form. Hell, I was done after the 32bit gen, and it's reflected in my gaming collection this past gen (though sometimes I do stupid things like buying SMT3 Nocturne...).
Let's move on. We've seen a few examples of what is hopefully the future of jrpgs...namely breath of fire 5 and (from what little I've played) FFXII.
Let's move on. We've seen a few examples of what is hopefully the future of jrpgs...namely breath of fire 5 and (from what little I've played) FFXII.
Reilly said:
FFXII was easy...like really really easy...like the easiest FF ever once you get some decent spells.
I don't think anyone complained about the difficulty or if they did they must be complaining that it was too easy.
Japanese hardcore gamers love difficulty
Japanese mainstream joe sixpack business guy doesn't like to be frustrated
American hardcore gamers love difficulty
American Joe Sixpack just stops playing games that get hard
European gamers must love difficulty as Euro versions always get the hardest ones
Japanese gamers like easy games? You must not play Shmups or music games!
And linear w/story is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-linear w/quests IMO. With non-linear you can develop the world and its people more, but it's very difficult to have a gripping narrative with good development as so much can be missed or skipped. Linear plays out more like a movie/book where the creators have almost 100% control over the story and development you will see. This makes for better stories in both pacing and quality IMO. The best is linear stuff with lots of non-linear things you can do.
I don't think anyone complained about the difficulty or if they did they must be complaining that it was too easy.
Japanese hardcore gamers love difficulty
Japanese mainstream joe sixpack business guy doesn't like to be frustrated
American hardcore gamers love difficulty
American Joe Sixpack just stops playing games that get hard
European gamers must love difficulty as Euro versions always get the hardest ones
Japanese gamers like easy games? You must not play Shmups or music games!
And linear w/story is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> non-linear w/quests IMO. With non-linear you can develop the world and its people more, but it's very difficult to have a gripping narrative with good development as so much can be missed or skipped. Linear plays out more like a movie/book where the creators have almost 100% control over the story and development you will see. This makes for better stories in both pacing and quality IMO. The best is linear stuff with lots of non-linear things you can do.
Himuro said:
And yet Suikoden III (with its point-and-click map) was more non-linear than Suikoden V in almost every way possible.
Hey, I too like the big, expansive, explorable world maps, but that doesn't necessarily correspond directly to non-linear gameplay or story (though it may give the illusion fo such). However, even so, those games do exist and did appear this gen -- FFXII, DQVIII, Suikoden V, Skies of Arcadia, Tales of Symphonia/Rebirth (TOS' world map was very, very impressive before DQ8 came along, and I still think they did a great job with it), Wild ARMs 3... I would say the trend away from these kinds of maps started last gen.
DQVIII is as linear as every other Jrpg.
Just because you can walk around empty spaces and go to towns where nothing happens doesn't make it non-linear. You still have to do A before B before C.
Non-linear is Romancing Saga where you walk into a area with no idea what to do or what your purpose is and the first enemy you fight kills you in 1 hit because you weren't supposed to be in that area yet.
Just because you can walk around empty spaces and go to towns where nothing happens doesn't make it non-linear. You still have to do A before B before C.
Non-linear is Romancing Saga where you walk into a area with no idea what to do or what your purpose is and the first enemy you fight kills you in 1 hit because you weren't supposed to be in that area yet.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Animal Crossing: Wild WorldHimuro said:
Red Scarlet
Member
Himuro said:
Mmm..the world isn't really very open-ended in FF12. You can explore some areas out of order, but you'll have a hard time making it through or outright get destroyed (which is really fun to try to do), but you can't really do anything at the area until you're supposed to be there in the game.
Maybe that's what they're complaining about?
distantmantra said:
It was made easier for the Japanese too, and Easytype is easier than the North American version.
I'd say they get really shitty non-linear games like the Saga series primarily, and that's scared most Japanese RPGers off from non-linear games. If you notice, the better Japanese games with non- or semi-linearity are platformers/action stuff like Metroid, the metroidvania Castlevania games, and so on.Himuro said:
I also don't think difficulty is that big of an issue - there are tons of insanely hard japanese shmups I've played. But I think games today just go easier for the most part anyway.
Himuro said:
Generally speaking, if I wanted to 'create my own fun', I wouldn't be buying a videogame.
When I play a game, I want some kind of a narrative structure. I don't want to wander around wondering where I have to go next. I like a clearly-delineated series of goals, arranged in order of increasing difficulty, that force me to progressively improve my skills in order to advance. I want to be rewarded for accomplishing those goals. Just making up arbitrary goals for myself in a game and seeing if I can accomplish them doesn't hold any great allure for me - there's some minor satisfaction to be had that way, but it doesn't approach the enjoyment I get from seeing my actions accomplish something meaningful in the context of the game.
Sandbox stuff is good for some occasional fun, but the linear, structured experiences are the real meat and potatoes of gaming for me. I'm happy the Japanese aren't trying to shoehorn nonlinear elements and sandbox gameplay into every other title the way Western developers seem fixated on lately.
Himuro said:
First of all, you should be skinned alive and dipped in citric acid by a cold metal clamp for the "non-games" comment. It's a meme on here second only to "Next gen" that irks me.
Second of all, Japanese gamers are just like American gamers. A few winners, a whole lot of losers. If you want an honest guess why your Final Fantasies and linear RPGs sell so damned well over there, take a look at what's going on with gangsta crime games and first person shooters over here. Frat boys and jerks who have never played a game online before Halo now think it's hot shit, so we end up with a million FPSes this year. GTA:3 sells like crazy with not just gamers who are at least familiar with the concept of nonlinearity and a free-roaming environment, but with people who think it's just cool to drive around in a car and run over people.
A single genre or idea occasionally takes hold and everyone wants to milk it for all it's worth. That's all. Combine that with an medium as creatively bankrupt as ours and you'll certainly see different markets appealing to what the tastes currently are. If you want to generalize, Korea makes only MMO games, America makes ghettotastic first person shooters, and Japan makes nothing but hyper-linear RPGs with effeminate male characters. But that's a gross oversimplification, and I promise you that every single one of these countries has garage developers and college kids just aching to make something new.
Third of all, your assertion that "difficulty" equates to "good" is an example of a naturalistic fallacy. A game can be easy and be entirely enjoyable - Katamari Damacy. A game can be hard and be entirely too frustrating to complete - Battletoads.
C- Warrior
Banned
Y2Kevbug11 said:
Oh for the love of god dude put the game on easy with gold orbs option on. A 3yr. old chinese kid was recorded beating a DMC3 boss (on those settings) and he couldn't even reach the trigger buttons.
Buffy4ever
Banned
duderon said:
Talk about stereotyping. Japenese and US player are both good.