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Shin Megami Tensei IV: An analysis (very long read, contains unmarked spoilers)

Hylian7

Member
Every once in a while I get on a Shin Megami Tensei kick and want to pick up some games in the series I had put down a long time ago for whatever reason (usually getting distracted by a newly released game). This time I'm mainly playing Strange Journey, and trying to finish that, but I also started playing the first Shin Megami Tensei on my YouTube stream. A few weeks ago I finally finished Soul Hackers on 3DS, and did an R/L TTP thread for that one.

Reading about people's opinions on SMTIV on the internet, it really seems that this game was pretty divisive in opinions across the SMT community. Just guessing, I would say about 30% loved it, the other 30% were disappointed in it, and the other 40% got stuck on Minotaur and gave up :p.

Honestly I'm in the "loved it" camp, and there's a ton of reasons why I love it, both as a game in general, and compared to other SMT games.

The game begins in a dream sequence, similar to the first Shin Megami Tensei, but technology has come further since the Super Famicom, so it looks much prettier rather than being a wavy dungeon crawl. You enter your name, meet the law hero, Jonathan, chaos hero, Walter, and someone else.. The cool thing about this part is the foreshadowing. When you see Walter, he's standing in Infernal Tokyo, basically the "chaos" version of what would happen if chaos got it's way. You see Jonathan standing in Blasted Tokyo, what would happen if law got it's way. The last person is a little girl on a beach, asking to be revived. Once again more cool foreshadowing about the neutral ending, as in the neutral ending, the little girl is "revived" as the dome is removed from Tokyo, and turns into a beautiful adult woman, revealing herself to be the spirit of Tokyo. This early in the game though, you have no idea who this little girl is, and won't know for a long time. It's something just meant to be in the player's mind for a long time.

After the dream you talk with the protagonist's friend, it's time for the Samurai gauntlet rite. Right off the bat, you'll notice that it's interesting that in a fairly primitive civilization, these "gauntlets" are clearly a piece of technology with a touch screen, similar like one we would see in real life. The "gauntlet rite" involves someone touching the gauntlet, and hoping it "shines with the light and mystic script" The gauntlet becomes the touch screen on your 3DS System, and there's a button for you to touch. The mystic script is the Japanese characters that show up (reading "Engage") after you touch the button. Obviously, it doesn't seem like this rite is actually determined by God, but rather just by if they touch the screen correctly or not. We aren't really told why people fail the gauntlet rite though, but if I had to guess, I would say when candidates are told to "touch the gauntlet" they either do not touch the screen, or do not touch the "Engage" button on the screen, therefore it doesn't do anything. That, or the gauntlet they are using is potentially broken. This is the first instance you can see of a more primitive civilization coming into contact with technology, and not quite understanding it.

After some brief tutorials, you're introduced to Burroughs, the AI in the gauntlet. The characters in the game refer to her as a "fairy", since they have seen demons before, but do not understand the concept of Artificial Intelligence. We aren't told too much more about Burroughs's backstory, but there are a few things I wonder about it. Is she actually a demon inside each gauntlet, similar to Nemissa from Soul Hackers? She can detect demons, which seems like a strange thing for an AI to do, but then again, Tokyo was fairly futuristic when the gauntlets were created, so it's possible that technology has advanced that far. We are told later that Burroughs was installed in the gauntlets by the Counter-Demon Force in Tokyo. The Gauntlets were actually part of the Demonica suits, which were actually first seen in the series in Strange Journey, and played a large role there. Here it's more of a fleeting reference to Strange Journey, but it is cool to see. One of my favorite small details about the game though is every time you bring up the menu, the protagonist actually looks at his gauntlet and says "Burroughs!"

After more talking and introductions, it's off to Naraku! You learn there are demons here, and how to interact with them. As there are things to interact with around you, you see digital readouts pointing to each thing, such as a sign to read, and even a ledge to jump down. For the most part, early on in the game is about exploring the first few floors of Naraku, recruiting demons, fusing them, learning more and more about the game's mechanics. The atmosphere in Naraku is nice, as it gives you the feeling of actually being a cave below this statue in the palace, and it's fairly narrow, only proceeding downward.

A theme that's been very prevalent so far is the caste system in the Eastern Kingdom in Mikado. The rich are known as Luxorors, while the poor are known as Casualries. Often, Luxorors are more "snooty" at Casualries. This is evidenced quite a bit in Navarre, another Samurai who mocks the protagonist and Walter constantly, as they are both Casulries. Jonathan and Isabeau are both Luxorors, but don't take on the snooty personality. Going in deeper, you're greeted by a hooded man that makes you fight some demons, then says to go complain to Navarre further in. All that's further in is a Demon Domain, which you enter to find Navarre. The little girl from the dream is once again spotted, but remains elusive. Shortly after that, you meet a man in a wheelchair, Stephen. Stephen has been a character that has appeared in some previous games in the series, most notably SMT1. He actually wrote the demon summoning program and made this possible. Often people assume he is a reference to Stephen Hawking, which is probably true to some degree. Stephen is known to get around in mysterious ways, as he is disabled and in a wheelchair, and is now in a demon's domain. He discusses the girl, but rather cryptically, once again leaving it more of a mystery. Going on, the strong demon's room is found, and there are Samurai tied up on the wall, including Navarre! There is a boss battle, and then Navarre is free, but shortly breaks down in fear.

Going around the town, you learn about something called "literature" being passed around and people holding "Sabbaths". These things are exactly what they sound like, but neither of these terms are familiar at all to the citizens of Mikado. The literature is actually turning some people into demons it turns out! At night, there is an emergency call for Samurai to go save the people of the town of Kiccigiorgi. At first they don't want the protagonist and his friends to go, but then they allow it since it is the protagonist's hometown.

Isabeau mentions reading some kind of book called a "manga", a thing that most people that play this game would know of. She has never seen one before, so it's interesting to see her reactions as the concept was brand new to her. I'm also glad the localization didn't just change "manga" to "comic book", since it came from Tokyo, where being a manga would make much more sense.

The most interesting thing about this is the name Kiccigiorgi. There is an actual region of Tokyo called "Kichijoji", and in fact you start there in the first Shin Megami Tensei. Once again, this is most like another reference to that game, and foreshadowing that things are not all that they seem. The town is named after the region of Tokyo, but why Tokyo? What does Tokyo have to do with this place? Well we all know by the end of the game that there is a bedrock dome over Tokyo, and the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado is established on top of that. It's likely that Kiccigiorgi is above where Kichijoji is in Tokyo.

After a trek through the forest to save civilians, you meet up once again with your friend Issachar. Issachar is jealous that his friend became a Samurai and he did not. He has now given in to the Black Samurai's literature, and learns from it. Issachar realizes there is something wrong, as the kingdom is suppressing a lot of information from it's people. Issachar becomes a partial demon, and now fights the protagonist and his party.

The party meets the Black Samurai, wearing a Black Demonica and revealed to be a woman. She leaves the party behind with a gang of Lillims, and makes her escape. The party is largely ignorant of what the Black Samurai says. She however says to head to the "underground", and this term sticks around in the protagonist's mind. That night when you to go sleep, both Walter and Jonathan tell you to go to the underground. You proceed further into Naraku, and then are about to enter a room called the "Hall of the Minotaur", with very ominous doors. This is of course, the infamous Minotaur battle, and similar to battles like Matador from Nocturne, this is one that stumps many players that don't fully understand the mechanics of the series. You really have to figure out how to exploit his weakness and take him down that way, with all the extra Press Turns you are getting each time you exploit the weakness. If you can resist Fire, he will lose press turns! The only issue that comes up with this is if Walter is the additional party member that helps you out. He decides to cast Agi on him sometimes, potentially causing him to "smirk", which gives him much more damage, and he is more evasive. Thanks Walter.

One of the aspects people complained about the most about SMT4 was the artwork. Minotaur is one of the first major examples you see of a non-Kaneko demon, however this one is actually good! I really liked the design of Minotaur, with the nostrils from his bull snout forming the eye sockets for a skull face on the front, while the entire demon looks like a bull on top of a man. It's a really cool design, especially the face part.

Minotaur_SMTIV_Full_Artwork.jpg
Minotaur goes down, and then things get really interseting. At the time of release, the way Atlus marketed the game, they mostly focused on the setting being in the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado, but gameplay footage would occasionally show Tokyo, and mention it. However they did not expressly say how you might end up in Tokyo, which was the most intersting part. Before I played the game, I was expecting some kind of portal to be at the bottom of Naraku that would take you to some kind of "mirage" version of Tokyo. This next part was an excellent build up to what really proved me wrong. You see construction equipment, scaffolding, and even signs written in the "mystic script" (Japanese). These signs warn about "angels" coming down from above. In one room you find guns, and Burroughs explains what guns are, since no one in the party has ever even seen one before. You find the first Terminal, and then learn there was one of these back in the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado! The way the characters react to all this, it's just something they don't understand because they have never seen technology quite like this before. Artifacts you find start to become things we in real life know as every day objects. Once you get into Tokyo, I highly suggest reading the descriptions on artifacts. You will at least get a good chuckle out of them.

Descending further, there are windows that show the characters a sight they have never seen before: the city of Tokyo. They mistake it for a sea of stars at the beginning, but then learn it is "The Unclean Ones Country" with their "Magic to light buildings". The terms that the characters come up with to explain things that we just know day to day in technology is always entertaining. The culture shock of no-tech into tech is a theme that is very prevalent throughout the entire game. Learning about an elevator from Burroughs, the party still thinks it is operated by magic. The next floor shows stone statues of people, soon you realize what was causing it: Medusa. Medusa was also one of the non-Kaneko demons, however this one was definitely a miss as far as artwork goes:


The issues I have with it are just too much unnecessary details. The chains, skulls in the tail, belts, only thing missing was zippers! A common complaint of the new demon art is that they look like they were drawn by a 13-year old Slipknot fanboy. They try to go on the "edgy" side way too much more than necessary. Kaneko seemed to understand "less is more" in a lot of cases. A few examples of this:


After emerging victorious against Medusa, you go all the way down into the Unclean Ones' country, Tokyo! At this point, I want to talk about one of my favorite aspects of the game: The music.

One of my favorite tracks plays right here in the world map of Tokyo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZwLg6rwG8
In addition to that, I have a ton of other favorites from this game. First off, we have a new version of the "Arcade Street" music that dates all the way back to SMT1! It appears in almost every SMT game in some form, and the SMT4 version of it is excellent, but sadly only used on the Streetpass menu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9rb4lpcOIY
One of the quest tracks was also excellent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohAiFqvZkvE
The standard boss battle music is also great: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6cSbof7Pik
There were tons of great tracks that were more atmospheric, and really set the tone of a particular area. This one plays in a few above ground places in Tokyo, and really gives you the feeling that the world has gone crazy, since you look around and see so much death and darkness, and the demons still ravage the streets, leaving the people scared in the underground districts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_kwdpjirR8
This one was played in the Infernal Ichigaya dungeon. I really love how dark and brooding it sounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoyQvO9Zaew&list=PLuu7gfeeGV4TKifRVuYQCVEIU1lGJoIhG&index=81

I could go on all day about the music, it really was amazing for this game. The party moves on and discovers an underground district, as well as the shops such as the Ashura-kai's secret weapon shop. Soon enough, at the Counter-Demon Force base in Kasumigaseki, the player has their first formal run-in with the Ashura-kai. They seem like the Yakuza, but took over after the dome was placed over Tokyo. You learn throughout the game that their leader, Tayama, was a nobody before this started, and then became the leader of the most powerful organization after the dome was formed.

In the CDF base, the protagonists discover the Demonicas, and take some to use. They mistake them for the Black Samurai, but realize it was only the armor she was wearing.

A common complaint about the game was the slower pacing, which I can sort of see, however I think I know the source of that frustration: The overworld map. It's filled with extremely narrow streets, with tons of "Can I go through that or not?" moments, and little idea of which place you are actually supposed to go into, or even can go into.

A lot of the most interesting story stuff happens fairly early on, so I'm going to be much lighter on that from here on out, and only really touch on the big stuff. One thing I immediately want to talk about is Shene Duque. It's a holy ground nearby the castle town, and the party is asked to go there by sister Gabby after you have rescued the men from Kagome Tower. The name Shene Duque is interesting, as like Kiccigiorgi forest, it too might be a reference to Shinjuku, and probably located above where Shinjuku would be. On top of that, the Coccoon containing all the citizens of the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado that rose into the sky before the dome was formed came out of Shinjuku National Park, and landed in what was known as Shene Duque. It's unlikely to be a coincidence that Shene Duque was named this way.

There were a lot of interesting story reveals throughout the game, however many of them you may not have noticed if you weren't paying attention or digging hard enough. One of them was the implication that Tayama, the leader of the Ashura-kai, was a pedophile. When you go into the Reverse Hills in Roppongi, you see children in all the rooms, being harvested to be turned into the red pills. One of the rooms has a little girl that says something about she will get to "marry Mr. Tayama", and before going there, you see all the children on the screen that Tayama shows you. They never straight up say it, but it is very heavily implied, and shows you just how deranged Tayama is at this point.

The leader of the Ring of Gaea, or the Gaean Cult in previous games, turned out to be none other than Lilith, who was also Yuriko, who was the Black Samurai. It was a neat throwback to how she played a similar role to Yuriko in SMT1. I thought it was interesting that the game actually gave subtle hints at this connection. Probably the biggest of which was at your first meeting with the "Black Samurai" in Kiccigiorgi forest, she summons a swarm of the same demon to charm the male characters. What demon is it? Lillim, who are said to be the children of Lilith! However, when you see her demon form, this was definitely another miss on the artwork front.


At this point, I feel like the artist was just drawing things to "add details" to her when it was really unnecessary and doesn't fit her backstory or origins at all. What is she now, a cat bird spider insect thing with womanly features? It's a really odd combination, and again, just seems like they thought too hard about this one. Kaneko always had the much simpler design of Lilith for the series:


She still resembles Yuriko to some degree. Looking at her origin, Lilith was the first wife of Adam that was kicked out of the garden of Eden. She gave into temptation and obtained knowledge that God did not want her to have. This temptation is often represented by a snake, which is commonly known in the story of Adam and Eve. The snake draped around her and snake tattoos really show off this part of her lore. Once again, simple works best for a lot of demon designs.

Something that really bothered me though was the fact that I still had a lot of questions after finishing all three endings (especially the neutral ending), but these things weren't revealed until the DLC. Some of the details were kind of important, and I wish they were discussed in the main game.

An example of this was why the history inscriptions in Mikado said that the kingdom has existed for thousands of years, yet only 25 years had passed in Tokyo. I thought that maybe it had something to do with the Coccoon taking memories of it from people, causing them to think that the whole kingdom had existed that long, but the DLC disproves this theory. It is revealed that time passes slower under the firmament over Tokyo, hence the fact that the world around Tokyo was virtually destroyed thousands of years ago, yet Tokyo had it's problems of the demons within the firmament. Masakado did this to protect the city from the ICBM strikes. A reveal like that really gives you a whole different perspective on the rest of the world in the game, as I was wondering the whole time what had happened to all the countries in the world, and everything else outside of Tokyo.

During the sequence of going to Blasted Tokyo and Infernal Tokyo, if you were paying attention to the game's backstory, there is something interesting. In both Blasted and Infernal Tokyo, you meet someone named Akira. You never meet an Akira in regular Tokyo or in Mikado. During a conversation in Blasted Tokyo, he mentions that he wants to establish a new civilization, and call it "The Eastern Kingdom of Mikado". Now this seems kind of random, or does it? If you read the inscriptions back in Mikado, it talks about how it was established by a King Aquila. Given everything we learn about Akira in the other versions of Tokyo, we can infer that Aquila is most likely the regular version of Akira, especially since the names are so similar.

Late in the game, you have a vision and encounter "The White" who think that you should destroy the Yamato Reactor to destroy the world. You can do this if you want, and even Burroughs becomes a bit sorrowful, saying things like "Goodbye master..." However something really bothered me about this optional "Bad Ending" was that it was effectively the same ending as the Law Ending, just someone different told you to do the same thing. In the Law Ending, Merkabah tells you you have to go destroy the Yamato Reactor, as humanity is too unclean to be saved, and this will wipe out everything, including yourself and Merkabah. The Law Ending of this game always felt like such a copout to me, with all the talk of a society governed by law, yet humanity would be enslaved. Obliterating everything isn't exactly what most people would have in mind when they think of a Law Ending. I was really expecting something more along the lines of the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado enslaving the people of Tokyo. Given that Tokyo would still be under Masakado's dome, they had nowhere to go, and were now enslaved too so had less freedom than they had before.

The Chaos ending was definitely more fitting of what I would imagine a Chaos ending be. First of all, you first meet Lucifer as just a girl in a schoolgirl outfit named Hikaru. Her name isn't any dead giveaway to her being Lucifer, unlike Gabby being Gabriel, or Louisa Ferre in Strange Journey. However something seems odd about her, as she walks around Tokyo in just a school uniform and her bookbag. She's not dressed like a hunter, and she seems awfully cheerful, yet has a mischevious look in her eyes all the time. You can definitely tell she is not normal, but you might not guess that she is actually Lucifer. She likely dresses this way because she wants to preserve Tokyo the way it is under the dome, and take over the Eastern Kingdom of Mikado as well, so she can rule with the protagonist. At the end, you see her in Mikado and the townspeople begin to fight with each other for who will still live on. All during this, Hikaru/Lucifer asks the protagonist to rule these people.

To be continued in post #2...
 

Hylian7

Member
Continuation....

The neutral ending was easily the most satisfying out of all the endings. First of all, the road to get here was very long, and kind of tedious at times. This was particularly annoying when I was missing a quest or two and had to look everywhere to find them. I think to do it the first time I actually ended up looking at a list online to make sure I got them all. In the Neutral Route, we learn some interesting things out of one particular line of quests. First of all, we see that the king of Mikado has been kicked out, and is now in Tokyo. A battle against him ensues, but then it is revealed he was already dead, and just a puppet for Beelzebub. It is also revealed in this route that Isabeau has a romantic attraction to the protagonist, however this is only mention and not the focus, as it should be. I am fine with them mentioning that, but glad they did not go sappy like other JRPGs and focus more on them as a couple. Instead, the focus is on the fact that a deal is made, and all the people from Mikado are evacuated. Masakado is returned to full power, and able to finally destroy the dome over Tokyo. During this scene, I thought it might have some kind of downside, as you see huge chunks of bedrock falling into Tokyo. I was expecting them to say a lot of people were crushed and killed, but nothing like that was mentioned. Instead, after the dome fell, we are back on a familiar beach, with the little girl once again at a table. She transforms into a beautiful woman, and is revealed to be the spirit of Tokyo, and she is now revived. It's fitting, as Shin Megami Tensei translates to "True Revival of the Goddess", and that's exactly what happens here.

As far as the gameplay goes, it did do some things different, but I honestly think many of these were for the better. For instance, being able to save anywhere, especially for a portable title, was a good idea. In Shin Megami Tensei games in the past, you either had a warning or could usually tell when a major boss fight was coming. Here, you are warned when it's coming by Burroughs. This means the Terminals became a transport device rather than the save points. Demon whisper was a nice mechanic, especially since it gives you a way to have spells on your protagonist. However with some of the DLC, it could be abused. I know there was one in particular that gives you a demon with Almighty magic fairly early on, and you can whisper this over. Almighty Magic goes through reflection, and cannot be nullified or resisted. This would be a very overpowered thing to have early on, and kind of breaks the game. The fusion menu was made a lot less tedious, and more functional. I don't really have a problem with the streamlining of the fusion menu, as all it really did was remove the tedium of picking one demon, seeing what you can get, picking another, check, instead you just search for what you want, or maybe something involving one of your demons, or maybe with a certain skill. It was fast, and still viable to obtain the results you wanted without having to read a million guides on the internet. The fusion character, Mido, was also enjoyable. His blocky face was a reference to the monks you typically saw in the Cathedral of Shadows rooms in previous SMT games, using the same fusion music from SMT1. His laugh was always amusing, and even explained how it's still possible to use the demon fusion while in Blasted or Infernal Tokyo. The smirk system, I don't think I would really be a fan of seeing return in future games though. It was yet another mechanic to gain an advantage from exploiting weaknesses, but it really seemed unnecessary and basically snowballed upon itself since it caused more critical hits and more misses by the enemy, thus giving you more press turns. I think the increased damage from the weakness exploitation and extra press turns were enough. Also I want to bring up again how frustrating it was to see Walter cast Agi on Minotaur, making him smirk and wipe the whole party in one shot!

Another common complaint is the dungeon design. I didn't really take issue with the dungeons in particular. I love the idea of exploring abandoned places that were used in a society similar to ours. Going through dungeons like Tokyo midtown were interesting because you could see how part of it was an office at some point. I thought they were very nice environments, and not any particularly frustrating or boring dungeons (I'm looking at you Eriadanus from Strange Journey). I realize a lot of people miss it being a dungeon crawler, but I think the reasons the series has moved away from that are because we have come well beyond technical limitations that were around when dungeon crawlers were more popular. More details and action can be animated, without having too many technical constraints, so why not make it prettier? The most recent SMT dungeon crawler was Strange Journey, however the way that was handled, it made sense for a few reasons. It was on the DS, and in addition, it was from the point of view of a character wearing a specialized suit in a harsh environment. It made it feel necessary it was a first person dungeon crawler.

Overall, SMTIV was a great, yet underrated entry in the Shin Megami Tensei franchise. I still don't think it was as good as the gold standard that Nocturne set, but it was definitely worth the wait since Nocturne. I look forward to the next mainline SMT game, even if we have to wait another ten years for it. At the very least, I hope to see more spinoffs a la Strange Journey. I particularly enjoyed the common themes of Law vs Chaos you see in SMT, but also the new ones brought in by this game such as primitive vs new technology.
 

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
The neutral ending was the most satisfying as a good conclusion but the path to get there is easily the most schizophrenic and illogical part of the game.
 

Hylian7

Member
The neutral ending was the most satisfying as a good conclusion but the path to get there is easily the most schizophrenic and illogical part of the game.

If it just told you "You have to do all the quests", and told you where the missing ones were, it might not have been a problem. Instead it went with that "You have to find the flame of hope!" thing.
 

Nakho

Member
If you know a little Japanese, Hikaru's name was quite a giveaway to her true nature.

I agree with most of your points. Not as good as Nocturne, but almost nothing is, really.
 

BennyBlanco

aka IMurRIVAL69
First of all, OST of the fucking forever.

And yeah, I loved it as well. Incredibly bizarre game but well designed and fun.
 

javadoze

Member
Great writeup. I was one of the people who felt kinda "meh" about SMT4 when I finished it, but now reflecting back on it, I came to appreciate how the game utterly nails its moody aesthetic and whatnot with the music and the environments amongst other things.

If it just told you "You have to do all the quests", and told you where the missing ones were, it might not have been a problem. Instead it went with that "You have to find the flame of hope!" thing.

Not to mention the invisible alignment system you had to keep track of the whole way.
 

Nakho

Member
Great writeup. I was one of the people who felt kinda "meh" about SMT4 when I finished it, but now reflecting back on it, I came to appreciate how the game utterly nails its moody aesthetic and whatnot with the music and the environments amongst other things.



Not to mention the invisible alignment system you had to keep track of the whole way.

It's not really invisible, but it pisses me off that the last decision has so much weight that you have to go a little Chaos throughout the game and then choose Law, or vice-versa, to get the Neutral ending.

But cue the people saying they got it without on trying their first time, and we must have been playing wrong. Every thread, man, no kidding.
 

Hylian7

Member
It's not really invisible, but it pisses me off that the last decision has so much weight that you have to go a little Chaos throughout the game and then choose Law, or vice-versa, to get the Neutral ending.

But cue the people saying they got it without on trying their first time, and we must have been playing wrong. Every thread, man, no kidding.

Uhhhh. I hate to be that guy, but I did get neutral on the first try. I just made sure to kind of flip flop on what seemed to be choices that affected my alignment, then lo and behold, I was neutral. I did also keep checking the guy in the Hunter's Associations too. It's possible I just got lucky though.
 

cj_iwakura

Member
Everyone likes Minotaur, but one that I enjoyed which doesn't get much appreciation is Asmodeus.


He suffers from that same 'too much going on' flaw, but he still looks damn menacing, especially in motion.
 
Muhfuggin' Camp Muhfuggin' Ichigaya

Great writeup. I was one of the people who felt kinda "meh" about SMT4 when I finished it, but now reflecting back on it, I came to appreciate how the game utterly nails its moody aesthetic and whatnot with the music and the environments amongst other things.



Not to mention the invisible alignment system you had to keep track of the whole way.

I just winged it.

To Neutral with NO QUESTS DONE. lol

What does your actions speak about you?

But seriously, this game becomes to me as the time grows between beating it and now an incredibly old school CRPG-ass game. Save Anywhere actually utilized, wildly swinging RNG, mechanics in copious, chaotic abundance, heavy theming, off-kilter characterization...it's really interesting.
 

Hylian7

Member
Everyone likes Minotaur, but one that I enjoyed which doesn't get much appreciation is Asmodeus.



He suffers from that same 'too much going on' flaw, but he still looks damn menacing, especially in motion.

Eh, I still didn't care for Asmodeus, as he definitely falls under the "Slipknot fanboy artwork" syndrome.

Seeing Kaneko demons appear again in Persona 5 gives me a really good feeling though, that maybe if there's another mainline SMT or mainline-ish SMT, that we'll see his designs rather than someone else's.
 
I laughed hard at your 30/30/40 comment.

Was my GOTY and my first SMT game, so I probably loved it even more since I had no clue about how different it was gameplay wise or how save anywhere could affect things. It has a few missteps, and no matter who may defend it I thought the overworld map experience was mostly butt, though after reading this I do think it's amusing the game had such a minimalist map but new demons that are a clusterfuck of overdesign.
 

Rasen

Banned
Fanastic write-up! I really loved the game too. While it has problems, and I still like Nocturne more, IV is a great game in its own right and I honestly think the hate is overblown. The world was great, demon customization provided a lot of options, and a hell of a lot of content for a 3DS game. The game is kinda to mainline SMT what FF9 was to Final Fantasy - a celebration of the series, and I think it sucks that a lot of people who went in just weren't familiar enough with the rest of the series to take it all in.
 

Nakho

Member
Uhhhh. I hate to be that guy, but I did get neutral on the first try. I just made sure to kind of flip flop on what seemed to be choices that affected my alignment, then lo and behold, I was neutral. I did also keep checking the guy in the Hunter's Associations too. It's possible I just got lucky though.

There are some seemingly small decisions that can mess up this line of thinking, so I chalk it up to luck. I remember this woman, I think it was in Ikebukuro, that upfront says she has no reason to live or whatever. Your decision of what to say to her only swings you less to a side than the final decision of the game.
 

BlackJace

Member
Unknowingly descending into Tokyo like angels was one of the coolest revelations in a game that I've played in a loooong time.

They also did a fantastic job of making Tokyo seem like a literal hell on Earth, and that's even before you get to Blasted or Infernal Tokyo.
 
It's not really invisible, but it pisses me off that the last decision has so much weight that you have to go a little Chaos throughout the game and then choose Law, or vice-versa, to get the Neutral ending.

But cue the people saying they got it without on trying their first time, and we must have been playing wrong. Every thread, man, no kidding.
Real talk, I actually quit the game when I got to the last decision and I was too neutral in order to get the neutral ending. Played a little bit of Chaos but it kind of soured me on wanting to finish.

The rest of the game was really good though and I bet I would be more positive sounding if I had been able to get the neutral ending. The only other thing I hated was the fact that a lot of the story quests felt arbitrarily added to the story, like "go kill this demon so you can cross the river". I thought the story was really interesting so it got annoying when it got slowed down by stuff like that.
 
Good write up!

I really loved the game myself. I posted a lot in the OT on release. Balancing gets kinda wonky but the quality of life improvements in the fusion system were amazing. I loved the world in the game, it had such a great atmosphere to it. Combat is press-turn so I had no real complaints.

I think I like it more than Nocturne if I'm being honest. This one's more fun to just play. I like the setting itself more too even if Nocturne is gorgeous. SMT4's art is my biggest beef with the game. Some of the demon designs are just UGH.
 

Bladenic

Member
I personally liked all the demon designs. It was my first SMT, and while I do love some older designs like Lilith, I didn't mind the new ones at all and liked many of them including hated ones like Medusa or Lilth. The one exception is the Angels. I do like aspects of them like being mechanical, but otherwise it was a bit too much indeed.
 

Goldrush

Member
The game was one of the best use of Streetpass (especially if you have homepass). Encourages the use of the addicting fusion system without turning the player into an overpowered god.
 
The reason i bought a 3ds.
Only the last part of neutral is a problem to me with that quest-a-thon.
As for getting neutral theres a guaranteed way to get it so its a non issue.

Love the game to death and good god
DAT OST
 
It's not really invisible, but it pisses me off that the last decision has so much weight that you have to go a little Chaos throughout the game and then choose Law, or vice-versa, to get the Neutral ending.

But cue the people saying they got it without on trying their first time, and we must have been playing wrong. Every thread, man, no kidding.

We all did. There was no choice. Which makes it right.
 
IV is more or less the best in the series. My only complaint would be that the artwork in the game is a little inconsistent and that it becomes a little too easy at times. Personally I feel that the game is incredibly under-rated. One of the best RPGs of all-time.
 

Korigama

Member
It's not really invisible, but it pisses me off that the last decision has so much weight that you have to go a little Chaos throughout the game and then choose Law, or vice-versa, to get the Neutral ending.

But cue the people saying they got it without on trying their first time, and we must have been playing wrong. Every thread, man, no kidding.

Uhhhh. I hate to be that guy, but I did get neutral on the first try. I just made sure to kind of flip flop on what seemed to be choices that affected my alignment, then lo and behold, I was neutral. I did also keep checking the guy in the Hunter's Associations too. It's possible I just got lucky though.
I also got Neutral my first time through the game. No guide or walkthrough, just prior knowledge to be as Neutral as possible before Camp Ichigaya, and that I would see Stephen and Isabeau again after the dimension hopping the White treated me to. I got away with answering according to what made the most sense to me more often than not, which typically did mean Chaos (though not always, such as answering "Let's wait and see what happens" in Blasted Tokyo as opposed to "Let's kill them before they kill us"), and actually chose Chaos by going with Walter during the initial split. In fact, the Cynical Man often still wound up saying others saw me as polite when I checked in with him anyway. I also kept alignment-affecting sidequests to a minimum (easiest way of correcting alignment without compromising your values while playing) and answered "I am human" to the freezer woman in Ikebukuro without having had any idea what a huge effect on alignment that speaking with her had until long after the fact (+10 toward Law if you say that, -10 toward Chaos if you say "I am a demon"). Most people playing also had no idea about parts in the game where you're automatically assigned alignment points just for completing mainline quests, as the case was with rescuing the VIPs for Gabby.

I didn't go Law by joining Jonathan during the split until deliberately playing for the Law ending on my most recent run I'm wrapping up, and am very glad for that given how boring that route was compared to going with Walter. I can picture people saying that getting Neutral requires being schizophrenic if they take the advice some give of "always pick the first answer when making choices", but I didn't bother with that.

Loved this game, even though Neutral is indeed the only satisfying ending. One of my favorite SMT titles. Thanks for the write-up, OP.

EDIT: And yes, fully agreed on appreciating the approach of dungeons mostly being places that were once actually inhabited.
 

EMan

Member
I loved SMT IV. Got recommended to it and fell in love with it. The art , the music, the designs all were so good.
 
Great OP there. Reading through it makes me want to finish it knowing some of the smaller details you brought up. The game is very great and played it post back surgery for me a few years ago. The combat and dungeons were very satisfying I remember. One thing I never heard people talk about was the 3d. Prob one of my favorite games to use it. It stands out so much in the dungeon areas and looks great.
 

Hylian7

Member
There was another thing I forgot to mention in the OP posts.

I don't have any way to prove this, but I honestly feel like Atlus knew about the troubles with the Index Corporation, and thought that SMTIV could potentially be the last Shin Megami Tensei, so they had to try a lot of things with this. Playing it kind of feels like a huge smorgasboard of references to other games in the series. Yuriko was a reference to SMT1, the Demonica and Burroughs's name being references to Strange Journey (In an interview, they said that Strange Journey's AI was Arthur, Arthur = A, Burroughs = B, and if there was another AI it's name would start with a C), Burroughs being similar in nature to Nemissa (possibly a demon living within a computer), people in Tokyo summoning from cell phones is a reference to Devil Survivor 2, and the medival setting of Mikado is kind of a reference to the Last Bible series. I'm sure there's plenty more, but in a way the game feels like they wanted it to be the "ultimate" Shin Megami Tensei in a way, sort of like how Fire Emblem Awakening felt (except without the obnoxious waifu pandering stuff).
 

jwhit28

Member
Your opinion and mine fall very much in line Hylian7. I managed to get neutral first time through but I could understand how people who ended up Law were disappointed in the story. I also thought it felt like a last chance love story to the series the way Fire Emblem Awakening was designed. Those games had a lot of parallels, including how they split their fan bases.
 

Hylian7

Member
I forgot about another cool moment that you only see in the Law and Chaos endings: The battle against Isabeau and her demons. The whole fight she is actually talking to you, and when her conversation sprite shows up on screen you can see she's bloody, yet still continues to get up and fight. It was one of those moments where you might actually feel bad about it, kind of in a similar vein to going with the White's "bad ending" and destroying the reactor as Burroughs keeps talking, and tells you it has no defenses.

I'm playing through the game again, and I know I'm going to do at least two things differently.

1. Keep the camera in the "over the shoulder" view. This is much closer to being a first person dungeon crawler. This does make the game a little more challenging, since this limits your field of view, but in general I just like the perspective.
2. Talk to everyone, whether as part of a quest or not. Just going through Naraku, in those rooms where there are some Samurai and Walter, Jonathan, or Isabeau, some of the generic Samurai say interesting things. One of them even mentions the "Unclean Ones' country"
 

Verder

Member
SMTIV seriously is one best handheld rpgs ever.

It gave me faith that atlus hasn't fully given up their wacky ideas from the ps2 era.


Amazing.
 

randomkid

Member
There was another thing I forgot to mention in the OP posts.

I don't have any way to prove this, but I honestly feel like Atlus knew about the troubles with the Index Corporation, and thought that SMTIV could potentially be the last Shin Megami Tensei, so they had to try a lot of things with this. Playing it kind of feels like a huge smorgasboard of references to other games in the series. Yuriko was a reference to SMT1, the Demonica and Burroughs's name being references to Strange Journey (In an interview, they said that Strange Journey's AI was Arthur, Arthur = A, Burroughs = B, and if there was another AI it's name would start with a C), Burroughs being similar in nature to Nemissa (possibly a demon living within a computer), people in Tokyo summoning from cell phones is a reference to Devil Survivor 2, and the medival setting of Mikado is kind of a reference to the Last Bible series. I'm sure there's plenty more, but in a way the game feels like they wanted it to be the "ultimate" Shin Megami Tensei in a way, sort of like how Fire Emblem Awakening felt (except without the obnoxious waifu pandering stuff).

The game is ridden with callbacks and references, yes.

Here are just about all of them.
 

Tizoc

Member
Nice write-up, will finish reading it in a bit, just wanted to commend you for the write up :)

At first I didn't realize that the major bosses weren't designed by Kaneko, but Minotaur is def. the best design of the bunch.

I should let my brother play this game, I'll tell him it's OK if he accidentally deletes my save and just give him the quick pointers about stat assignment.

He needs to expand his jRPG series, he hasn't played one in over...3 or so years?
 
I really liked it but there were some pretty blatant flaws. The huge number of demons was completely unnecessary, first of all. Being able to fuse essentially whatever moves you wanted onto one meant that only stats and resistances were really meaningful, moreso the latter, and I felt like that ended up making it so that at most points in the game there were a couple of demons that would be way more viable than others. They should have toned down the number and focused on balancing the game better. I feel like there should have been an actual defense stat to increase variation between the demons. The smirk system was kind of overpowered and the temporary AI partners could swing the battle in favor of the enemy with it. The overworld and lack of a real map make it unnecessarily difficult to navigate your way from one location to another. The domains were all really boring on account of being so similar.

I really like some of the things they did with it. I liked the attempts to incorporate city environments into the level design more, and I felt that really improved the atmosphere of the game, which is important to me.

The OST is probably my favorite part of the game. I honestly don't really like how JRPGs or games in general seem really inclined to go with more orchestral EPIC music, and I actually liked what was done here more than a lot of Meguro's work, even. It experimented with more contemporary styles. More synth heavy 80s influenced tracks added a lot of flavor to the game, and there was even the Infernal Tokyo overworld theme which sounded like it had some shoegaze influence, on top of that some of the more intense or atmospheric tracks drew from industrial and ambient music, and I was really pleased to see that. I want more of that.

I think Nocturne was overall a more well rounded and polished game, but I'm not sure of my personal preference between that and SMT4. I think my favorite in the series is probably Strange Journey, though, since that had some really excellent dungeon design.
 

MrT-Tar

Member
This was my first SMT game (excluding Devil Survivor) and I absolutely loved it. I never found the Minotaur hard as well, the only boss I remember being stuck on for a while was the 'King of Tokyo' or whatever his name was.
 

Hylian7

Member
This was my first SMT game (excluding Devil Survivor) and I absolutely loved it. I never found the Minotaur hard as well, the only boss I remember being stuck on for a while was the 'King of Tokyo' or whatever his name was.
King Kenji. I remember being stuck on that fight for a few days on my first playthrough. Basically the only way to beat him is Tetrakarn and Makarakarn. Unlike other SMT games, Makarakarn reflects magic effects too, not just damage. So you can reflect his Ancient Curse. Someone on GAF actually told me this back at the time because I did not know about it.

I also had a ton of trouble with Beelzebub, and I think I would consider him the most difficult boss. Reflection was one of the first things I tried and of course if you use any kind of reflection spell or item, he spams Megidolan. :/
 
I loved how the game had such meaty side-quests. The side-quests essentially were the game. It guarantees multiple playthroughs and makes subsequent playthroughs even more enjoyable than the initial.
 

ryushe

Member
I really should start this game over without using the "break the game" DLC they released. I loved it up until that point, but it really killed the challenge of the game, as well as my desire to continue.

Plus the world map is ridiculously bad.
 

Holundrian

Unconfirmed Member
The game played it too safe for me. There just wasn't any surprise for me. Everything about it was pretty much what I expected in that sense in was good but kind of disappointing.

I was hoping that they would mix it up especially on the story part and give the whole order chaos neutral thing a new twist.
 
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