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nynt9 · Nov 16, 2015

Also see this thread where they won't be getting Battlefront keys as well: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1140974

https://www.reddit.com/r/GameDealsMeta/comments/3t0p9m/rgamedeals_and_greenmangaming/

Because of the store's popularity and excellent customer care among the community, we allowed GreenManGaming to bypass /r/GameDeals[1] rule about only allowing stores that were authorized to sell all of the games in their store - but for only one game, The Witcher 3.

It has now come to our attention that GreenManGaming's library of unauthorized game sales has expanded, or this library has just now come to light. You may have noticed recently some "too good to be true" deals on GreenManGaming. We received a few modmails/emails on the subject so we investigated.
From what we have been told by the publishers, GreenManGaming is not authorized to sell Activision, Ubisoft or WB Games titles, as well as CDProjektRED's The Witcher 3.

It seems they've gone near full-on gray market at this point. It's doubly misleading because their website still lists these pubs as official partners. http://www.greenmangaming.com/publishers-developers/#b

From their "about" page:

We are incredibly proud to be a business trading and working officially with the world’s greatest publishers and developers. We have direct contracts as an official, approved retail partner with every publisher / developer that has a game listed on Green Man Gaming, so our customers can buy with confidence.

They are not partnered with Activision, according to their list, yet they still sell their games. They sold The Witcher 3 despite CDPR confirming they're not an authorized retailer. Ubisoft's approved vendor list doesn't contain them either: https://support.ubi.com/en-US/faq/9/3888/approved-retail-vendor-list/kA030000000ekN9CAI They are dishonest to their customers.

Update:

New response from WB:

Update 2:

GMG have responded:

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/green-man-gaming-denies-it-sells-grey-market-game-/1100-6432325/

Dear Reddit

First of all, we are very disappointed that we were unable to come to a mutual understanding with the Reddit Game Deal moderators: /r/GameDeals

Over the past year, we have been repeatedly asked to supply sensitive information regarding contracts between us and publishers, which for legal reason we simply cannot share, nor should we be expected to. We believe that other retailers featured on Reddit Game Deals have not been afforded the same level of scrutiny and investigation that we have endured, and that ultimately, customers will be missing out on information and deals.

We find the research carried out by the Reddit Game Deal mods has been subjective or inaccurate. We know they share the same aims as we do; to offer customers great value on great games, so it brings us no pleasure to publicly state - they are wrong.

http://i.imgur.com/jEjIIzu.png?1

We have always been transparent that for us, the customer is our priority. We have withdrawn from Reddit Game Deals as we no longer have the time and resources to keep offering proof and statements to their persistent group of moderators. Our focus as always should be and is our customers.

We reiterate that we source our keys from a range of over 400 publishers, developers, and distributors to meet customer’s demands on a title by title basis. Let’s be clear here; there is a difference between being an authorised retailer for some titles, and being a retailer selling keys that have been sourced responsibly through authorised third parties with revenue going back to the publisher. If a key unlocks, it is an authentic key. This isn’t a perfect science as human error can affect the supply chain. Where possible, we work directly with publishers and distributors to make sure customers have the very best experience with us.

Whenever things outside of our control have happened, we have instantly and fairly tried to make it right. We accept that we don’t always get it right, and we are sorry for any inconvenience caused. We’d like to take this opportunity to thank our customers, the Reddit Game Deal community, and everyone who has supported us.

Thank you

Paul Sulyok CEO Green Man Gaming

and The Green Team

Though I think this is just them confirming that they go to third parties for some games and don't directly get keys from publishers, and are handwaving it away by saying "if it unlocks it's authentic" which is misleading. They are not the authorized dealer for some games.

Update 3:

YianGaruga said:
GMG now lists where their keys are coming from on a game by game basis

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...g-will-now-tell-you-where-game-keys-come-from

The facebook post
https://www.facebook.com/GreenManGaming/posts/10153832262152216?_rdr=p

The Game Deals subreddit stipulates, in its rules, that it will not post links to any retailers that use unauthorised keys, and as Green Man Gaming refused to supply the kind of contractual proof the moderators of Game Deals were demanding - and in a statement (posted in full on GameSpot) threw its arms up in the air and walked away from what it felt was an unfair crusade against it - that was that. It wouldn't plead its case any longer.

That happened a couple of days ago. The change to Green Man Gaming operations was announced today, in a Facebook post titled "You spoke, we listened." The GMG website will also now tell you when you can expect delivery of a key, and both changes roll out today but will take time to implement across the entire catalogue.

bigkrev · Nov 16, 2015

Just checked, they stopped selling Battlefront on their website (shows up with no price).

It's a shame, but the value of being able to get a refund easily through steam if the port is fucked has trumped the 10-20 dollars you can save on GMG for me at this point. A year ago, every single AAA game I bought was from them.

LewieP · Nov 16, 2015

Selling keys without permission from the publisher is fine by me, just like secondary trade of any other goods.

Selling keys without permission from the publisher whilst pretending that you do have permission from the publisher is poor form indeed.

Had I bought any games under the false impression that they were obtained directly from the publisher, I'd be demanding a refund from GMG.

I will be interested to see how they handle this.

John Cowheel · Nov 16, 2015

I buy keys from unauthorized resellers all of the time, but I definitely don't like being lied to. GMG is playing the same where they're pretending they are an authorized reseller.

MillionStabs · Nov 16, 2015

I kinda figured this was the case when they said their Blops 3 keys wouldn't have nuketown, but then some did and some didn't

nynt9 · Nov 16, 2015

LewieP said:
Selling keys without permission from the publisher is fine by me, just like secondary trade of any other goods.

Selling keys without permission from the publisher whilst pretending that you do have permission from the publisher is poor form indeed.

Had I bought any games under the false impression that they were obtained directly from the publisher, I'd be demanding a refund from GMG.

I will be interested to see how they handle this.

There's a vague non-rebuttal by a GMG rep in the comments.

Hmm... for some reason this didn't make it through this morning when I posted it as a link but...
It's with a little sadness that I'm here to announce that Green Man Gaming is withdrawing from /r/GameDeals[1] [1] . We've been asked by the moderation team again to prove ourselves, and at this point I just give up - we're not willing to share our contracts with the moderation team, no matter how much they promise they won't share it; some things just are business confidential. Maybe this is a common occurrence, or maybe someone is pointing out when we have issues more than anyone else. Regardless, there isn't much point in fighting to keep this square meter of digital earth when there's a whole world of reddit still out there!
We'll still be active on reddit, we'll try to keep advertising here in the "Sponsored Links" up at the top. If anyone sets up an alternative - poke me and I'll be there just as quick responding to our customers. I'd like to thank you guys for the effort you went to when we were removed the first time, it was a very nice fuzzy feeling knowing that we were loved by the majority of the community - there's always a few angry people, but if you're one of them for a good reason (like you over paid and never bothered writing a ticket) let me know! I want to fix it!
I recommend checking out our site regularly for deals, and subscribing to our newsletter (we're moving towards giving more deals through exclusive vouchers in emails, and they're easy enough to filter). PMs or username mentions on here will usually get my attention, and I still browse and comment quite a bit on things unrelated to sales if you just feel like saying hi.
(also a final callout to /u/GetGames[2] [2] - just because if he didn't see this, he'll like to - even just to shake his head and commiserate.)
edit: I'd also like to say that I know for a fact that some of this is just plain unsourced information, but because we are unwilling to share confidential information, guesswork is all the mods have to go on. (Some of it is shoddy guesswork though - does it seem right that we are unauthorised by WB if we also processed thousands of Batman refunds?)

Here's how a moderator of the sub responded:

Nowhere here am I seeing a refutation of fact. GMG could prove itself in a moment with a single picture of an appropriately redacted contract. That's all it would take. We would have egg on our face.
Multiple major publishers have said that GMG is not an authorized seller. These are direct statements, not guesses on our part.
All we've asked for is proof to the contrary. Appealing to ambiguity, implying other sites are doing the same (the /u/GetGames[1] callout), etc. won't change the fact that you need to prove your claim. You've been caught operating as unauthorized in the past, and here, now, you appear to be doing the same.
So please, answer that question, and answer it directly. We asked that question privately, and repeatedly, and you never responded.

10k · Nov 16, 2015

Yeah I knew those prices were too good to be true. The only thing stopping me from buying Syndicate was it was a uPlay let only. Never had a problem with steam key games though.

Tak3n · Nov 16, 2015

blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

nynt9 · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

To some, buying keys that might have been obtained with stolen credit cards or keys that exploit regional pricing and as a result hurt people in disadvantaged regions is morally wrong. I guess for some people it's more important to save $20 though.

Hektor · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

A car can't be retroactively revoked from your garage.

Tal Shiar Agent · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

Unauthorized keys could be stolen keys and can be deactivated, causing you to lose your purchase with no recompense.

Coreda · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

If price were king we'd all be pirating content, but some have a conscience and there are questions that we don't seem to have answers to atm.

unless this is a troll post. It is, isn't it.

Jaded Alyx · Nov 16, 2015

So what will happen to my Battlefront purchase?

Armaly · Nov 16, 2015

Just want to quote what I said in the last thread.

Armaly said:
They're not an official partner of WB yet they have it at the bottom of the page.

Click to expand...

Activision isn't listed on this page but Ubisoft is.

Omikaru · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

There is a risk, and some sites do not want to advertise deals where such a risk is present, and some people would like to know there is a risk before they pay money for something. Most grey market keys are legit, just passed around a few hands before they are sold to the public. But sometimes they are mass purchased with stolen credit cards, which will inevitably be deactivated.

That said, I don't think GMG is full-on grey market. They did good with my Fallout 4 key, which seems legit (they are also selling the season pass), and are an official Nintendo of Europe key reseller. It seems they do source their keys from a variety of sources, however, with not all of them official.

Luigi87 · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

Them lying is poor form, and unauthorized key resellers are banned on GAF, so if something like this keeps up, talking about deals from GMG will no longer have place here.

EvilKatarn · Nov 16, 2015

Hektor said:
A car can't be retroactively revoked from your garage.

Have there been instances of games being taken from players?

Lord British · Nov 16, 2015

Hmm, that's a shame.

I remember when they used to be the go-to site for deals.

Sylas · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

Publishers can revoke access to your game if it's reported/discovered that you're using an illegitimate CD Key. So, y'know. It does matter.

gdt · Nov 16, 2015

Maybe years of low GMG prices are pushing pubs to stop cooperating with GMG?

Whatever is going on....things are changing here.

ScatheZombie · Nov 16, 2015

Tak3n said:
blimey Gaffers, does it really matter that much, I am sure many of you bought a car from a garage that was not the 'main dealer'

Price is king IMO, if you are saving money does it really matter a bit if they are not 'official'

It matters because GMG continually claims to be an authorized retailer. But the reality is that only a portion of their supply chain is via legitimate contracts. And the rest is from grey market.

There's nothing inherently or necessarily wrong with grey market reselling, but there is something wrong with presenting your business inaccurately. As an authorized retailer, GMG is competing with Steam and Amazon. As a grey market reseller, they are competing with CDKeys.

Hektor · Nov 16, 2015

EvilKatarn said:
Have there been instances of games being taken from players?

GMG specific or in general? If the latter, the answer is yes.

Tak3n · Nov 16, 2015

nynt9 said:
To some, buying keys that might have been obtained with stolen credit cards or keys that exploit regional pricing and as a result hurt people in disadvantaged regions is morally wrong. I guess for some people it's more important to save $20 though.

you can take your argument to the end and back, for example and there are many, whole countries using cheap labour to provide you with cheap clothing, cheap energy, hell cheap everything....all abusing regional pricing...

if you want the moral argument one can not pick and choose simply because it is gaming, whilst wearing a 5$ T-Shirt made in a sweat shop...well so I think anyways

ref · Nov 16, 2015

I'll still use them if there's a good deal. I've bought hundreds of games from 'unauthorized' dealers and have had no problems at all over many years.

Canada retail prices are insane atm

OnionPowder · Nov 16, 2015

EvilKatarn said:
Have there been instances of games being taken from players?

Yes. The Publisher can and will take away keys from resellers

Ubisoft has done it

Devolver Digital has done it

And Rebellion has done it for Sniper Elite

kewlmyc · Nov 16, 2015

Damn, this sucks. They were the company I got most of my PC games from. I was going to buy Battlefront from them too.

Tak3n · Nov 16, 2015

ScatheZombie said:
It matters because GMG continually claims to be an authorized retailer. But the reality is that only a portion of their supply chain is via legitimate contracts. And the rest is from grey market.

There's nothing inherently or necessarily wrong with grey market reselling, but there is something wrong with presenting your business inaccurately. As an authorized retailer, GMG is competing with Steam and Amazon. As a grey market reseller, they are competing with CDKeys.

if they are lying I am all for sticking it to them, I agree with that whole heartedly

Banjo-Kazooie · Nov 16, 2015

Didn't they do this with Witcher 3 too? Lol

I was on them before but there was quite the defense force. For the record, if the key is legit then he key is legit, but don't go around telling people yu are a legitimate retailer when you aren't even buying the keys from the source.

"We have direct contracts as an official, approved retail partner with every publisher / developer that has a game listed on Green Man Gaming, so our customers can buy with confidence."

"
Being official means that our customers have the reassurance that our dedicated Customer Service team can sort out any issues they might have directly with the publisher, that purchased games will work, and importantly, that the correct version of a game will activate in a customers region as it is supplied by direct from the publisher."

LOL... That right there is why it's a problem.

Volotaire · Nov 16, 2015

Thanks for flagging this up OP.

Linkark07 · Nov 16, 2015

What has happened to GMG as of lately?

EvilKatarn · Nov 16, 2015

Hektor said:
GMG specific or in general? If the latter, the answer is yes.

OnionPowder said:
Yes. The Publisher can and will take away keys from resellers

Ubisoft has done it

Devolver Digital has done it

And Rebellion has done it for Sniper Elite

Haha, Kinguin and G2A. Sorry to any unsuspecting people who lost their game(s) because of this but this seedy shit needs to be weeded out.

Visualante2 · Nov 16, 2015

Appreciate the heads up. I've actually started visiting r/GameDeals recently so it's helpful to know they're proactive in this. Ban seems excessive to me but it might force GMG to improve things. The whole concept of authorised resellers has been something I've ignored since the get go. I always go on a store by store basis and will continue to do so. GreenManGaming have been fantastic. With so much more competition it's got to be tempting to go down this road. PC market needs to be cleaned up a bit, publishers should be making efforts to get more stores on board. Many people aren't willing to pay £40 for a PC game.

nephilimdj · Nov 16, 2015

Surely this has got to be one of the biggest wool over our eyes events, cult status of being legit to transitioning to a cdkey site.

Hesemonni · Nov 16, 2015

Screw GMG. I'm taking my business to G2A!!!

...No seriously, cdkeys.com is where it's at. Super happy with them so far.

karnage10 · Nov 16, 2015

after witcher 3 i began to suspect they weren't a "full" authorized retailer but i never suspected that they were faking such big devs.

Iced · Nov 16, 2015

Hesemonni said:
Screw GMG. I'm taking my business to G2A!!!

...No seriously, cdkeys.com is where it's at. Super happy with them so far.

I'm constantly seeing links to cdkeys posted on Red Flag Deals (Canadian site). Are they legit?

Par Score · Nov 16, 2015

No problem with re-selling 'unauthorised' keys, just like there's no problem running an independent second-hand car dealership.

Big, huge, massive problem with attempting to pass yourself off as an authorised vendor / branded dealership.

AHA-Lambda · Nov 16, 2015

EvilKatarn said:
Have there been instances of games being taken from players?

Yes multiple

cleveridea · Nov 16, 2015

Feels weird seeing this thread

I have bought a ton of games from GMG and they worked as expected, except a ton cheaper than buying direct from steam

Ikuu · Nov 16, 2015

Iced said:
I'm constantly seeing links to cdkeys posted on Red Flag Deals (Canadian site). Are they legit?

Yes.

fertygo · Nov 16, 2015

kewlmyc said:
Damn, this sucks. They were the company I got most of my PC games from. I was going to buy Battlefront from them too.

AFAIK they're really partner of EA tho.

Iced said:
I'm constantly seeing links to cdkeys posted on Red Flag Deals (Canadian site). Are they legit?

Nope, grey seller.

Bony Manifesto · Nov 16, 2015

To be fair, GMG still has a distinct advantage over cdkeys.com, as being based in the UK, they're bound by some pretty robust consumer protection laws.

Still, I find the notion that anyone who isn't granted permission from a publisher to sell games is likely to be complicit in credit card fraud to be a bit much (didn't we all rail on Microsoft for wanting to have a similar sort of control over the distribution of their console's games with the original XB1 plans?). Having said that, I think GMG need to be more open about which keys are coming from deals directly with the publisher and which are coming from gutted boxed retail copies.

LewieP · Nov 16, 2015

Iced said:
I'm constantly seeing links to cdkeys posted on Red Flag Deals (Canadian site). Are they legit?

You need to define what you mean by "legit".

They are selling games without the explicit permission of the publishers/developers of them.

There are unanswered questions about exactly what their supply chain is. Best theory suggests they are bulk buying retail copies from regions with low prices, or getting keys from a variety of distributors (aka intermediaries who have some kind of direct or indirect connection with publishers).

There is no evidence to suggest that CDkeys.com routinely engage in theft, fraud, or any other kind of illicit business practices.

They do not pretend to be authorised. They are entirely upfront that they are selling keys without explicit permission from publishers/developers.

They have an excellent track record for customer service (on par or even above many authorised retailers).

They have extremely competitive prices.

Phinor · Nov 16, 2015

LewieP said:
Selling keys without permission from the publisher is fine by me, just like secondary trade of any other goods.

Selling keys without permission from the publisher whilst pretending that you do have permission from the publisher is poor form indeed.

Sums up my thoughts. I've bought from russian/out of region traders, cd key stores, GMG, Steam, Nuuvem, a dozen other authorized stores and even used trader bots few times. If my purchasing experience is good and nothing illegal is happening behind the scenes, I'll often go with the lowest price. Best customer service I've received is from individual traders and a specific cd key site (that shall not be named), while Steam itself has if not the worst, then probably the slowest support out of all the stores I use. I'll keep using GMG but as we've known for a while now, they are no longer authorized and in that case have to compete with unauthorized cd key stores when it comes to price.

You can't call yourself authorized if you use distribution channels the publisher doesn't officially recognize in your region. You might be authorized with some publishers while being unauthorized with others, but at that point your store is not authorized as a whole.

Iced · Nov 16, 2015

Ikuu said:
Yes.

fertygo said:
Nope, grey seller.

See, this is the problem.

Armaly · Nov 16, 2015

fertygo said:
AFAIK they're really partner of EA tho.

I think someone will have to take the time to email every pub and see if they actually are.

RK9039 · Nov 16, 2015

Iced said:
See, this is the problem.

Maybe.

TaintedHotSauce · Nov 16, 2015

SG-17 said:
Unauthorized keys could be stolen keys and can be deactivated, causing you to lose your purchase with no recompense.

I can just chargeback them if that happens.

Rinj von Scoot · Nov 16, 2015

I had raised an eyebrow at the AC Syndicate and Anno prices (especially when the latter was almost half off on release day), but I'm honestly surprised that GMG seems to be transitioning to grey market keys. I didn't buy either of those deals because Fallout was on the horizon, but now I'm extra glad I didn't.

At this point it'd be really nice to see some sort of exposé where someone contacts every supposed publishing partner of GMG to see if there's anything else going on, because while I like the site, I don't know how trustworthy they are anymore.

PetriP-TNT · Nov 16, 2015

That's it for GMG for me at least. I have spent tons of money there, but I have no ambition to support their quest to beat the gray market suppliers by coming one themself.

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