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Why I want more Politics (and Economy) in RPGs - Felipe Pepe

A

Arulan

Member
Here we are again with another article by Felipe Pepe, who has has written on RPG history, the preservation of gaming history, classifying the RPG , and the dreadful Quest Compass. He's also the one working on the CRPG book project.

Article: Why I want more Politics (and Economy) in RPGs

Before I continue, this article isn't about the politics surrounding gaming, but rather politics IN gaming.

Divinity: Dragon Commander (2013)

Far from the stupidity of Fable III, here each of the 60 policies presented are representative of real-world issues - Public Health Care, Gun Ownership, Piracy, Torture, Deporting Criminals, Press Freedom, Same-Sex Marriage and even Breastfeeding in Public:

f14CtaP.jpg


These policies are argued for or against by the five council members. While each is rather archetypal, they aren't GOOD nor EVIL, just different; making points you often hear in real-world's debates.

I.e., should there be Government Healthcare?

Elves demand it, for there's a huge income gap;
Imps approve, for they are often injured;
Lizards think it's good for the people (and will piss off Dwarves);
Undead say nay, for that would interfere with the work of the Gods;
Dwarves are outraged, for it would cost a fortune and "lead to laziness".
What do YOU think?
Click to expand...

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura (2001)

Arcanum's world was a cookie-cutter Tolkien-ish realm. Elves in forests, Dwarfs in mines, Orcs in the wild, humans lock in power struggles, mages casting fireballs, knights in armor, etc...

Yet, instead of an Ancient Evil™, it got a steam engine.

Its creator, Gilbert Bates, didn't use it to create an army of steam-punk robots to take over the world or anything - he started an industrial revolution. And the developers went crazy figuring out how one of the biggest events in human history would change a fantasy world.

Racial relations also changed - Gnomes, the weakest race around, began investing in this new technology and found themselves enriching and rising in power... which upset other races and lead to one of the best side-quest in RPG history (and believe me, I've played A LOT of them) - the Gnome Conspiracy.

I won't spoil it here, just tease it a bit:

yBlFDhg.jpg
Click to expand...

Funny enough, as I was reading the article I thought of another great example to use, and so did the author apparently (I hope you don't mind me posting snips from RPG Codex posts):

Which reminds me that I cut a huge chunk of text on how writers often write 10 billion years of lore not to make their settings deeper, but rather to have excuses for dumb power relations & isolated conflicts. Arcanum and Morrowind are so interesting because I can instantly imagine conflicts based on their macro environment & faction interplay.

DA:O, Skyrim and the likes have nothing like this... like, what's the College of Winterhold side on Skyrim's civil war? Game never mentions, it was too busy delving into isolated & irrelevant ancient lore with no real consequences whatsoever. Supposedly, they are an extremely powerful & old faction, yet you can remove them entirely from the game and not a single thing would be changed. They exist in a vacuum.
Click to expand...

The original article was huge, had bits on Morrowind, the lore thing I've mentioned above, an analysis on how micro & macro environment theory applies to RPGs...

Cut all that and still ended with a massive article few people will bother to read. :p
Click to expand...

If you're reading this, I wouldn't mind seeing the uncut version.
 
K

Kalentan

Member
Agreed... I feel like it's always the aspect of Open world RPGs that falls flat. Cause even if you do get involved in the politics, typically it's a very small part and is just boring (usually ends with you being leader of said place after an hour)... For all the hate of the Winter Palace in DA:I, I LOVED it cause it was one of the few games that made me feel like I was actually playing a game of politics, lies, and deciet and such.
 
J

Jintor

Member
I would've played a lot more Dragon Commander if it was a full-blown politics simulator and didn't have the RTS segments in it.

Arcanum also a perennial favourite. Very interesting points on the Elder Scrolls stuff. I've never understood how people get immersed in the (non-Morrowind) factioning in those games.

(That said, the Gnomish conspiracy was a really weird sidequest because it was essentially a weird fantasy rip-off of the Jewish Conspiracy, except in this world... uh... unfortunate implications were easier to stumble over)
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines(by the same devs as Arcanum, naturally), has lots of politics in play, just like the source material. You have the Anarchs, Camarilla, and Sabbat.


Any core SMT game applies, too, with the Law VS Chaos dichotomy.
 
F

FrenchToastDisciple

Member
God, there need to be more video game academics. I am salivating at the idea of a long form academic book about game economies and their artistic significance, but there don't exist the kind of resources to devote to that sort of in depth scholarly work for the medium yet. There's just so much shit that goes unanalyzed that I need to read more about.
 
J

Jintor

Member
cj_iwakura said:
It's absolutely political. Every core game has a huge clash of ideologies at the core. Even Devil Survivor.
Click to expand...

I mean the exploration of it in-game. I suppose the difference is middling, but I think this topic lends itself more towards questions of governance and outcomes. But I haven't played SMT.

Also VTM's "Sabbat" was less a question of politics and more a question of terrorists (oppositional politics notwithstanding). the more interesting politicking was within the Camirilla, but VTM was much more about power plays and intrigue/control over individuals than the Prince attempting to implement policies for Cainite/Kine relations or anything. The relationship between DeLaCroix and the Anarchist lobby was more interesting, but I still think not quite what this topic is about.
 
T

Toxi

Banned
These policies are argued for or against by the five council members. While each is rather archetypal, they aren't GOOD nor EVIL, just different; making points you often hear in real-world's debates.

I.e., should there be Government Healthcare?

Elves demand it, for there's a huge income gap;
Imps approve, for they are often injured;
Lizards think it's good for the people (and will piss off Dwarves);
Undead say nay, for that would interfere with the work of the Gods;
Dwarves are outraged, for it would cost a fortune and "lead to laziness".
What do YOU think?
Click to expand...
I like these political conflicts a lot when they take advantage of the setting. The Undead's reason for rejecting healthcare is interesting to me because it's a perspective I don't see in the real world. I have to actually start thinking in the terms of a fictional setting to consider it.

I don't really care for them when they just present simplified versions of real world arguments though. If the Dwarves and Elves were the only people weighing in, the choice presented above it would be just a boring version of the real thing. Yeah, it's Dwarves and Elves saying it instead of humans, but it's still the same old shit.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
Jintor said:
I mean the exploration of it in-game. I suppose the difference is middling, but I think this topic lends itself more towards questions of governance and outcomes. But I haven't played SMT.
Click to expand...

That kind of blows my mind. But yes, it's very well explored. The Messians and Gaians aren't just philosophical stances, they have entire political factions and organizations. The Messians believe in letting God dictate everything, including who should and shouldn't be saved, Gaians believe that everyone has free will to decide as long as they have the power to forge a path.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
It's always interesting the injection of Real World Politics into gaming. Some want it, but some of those dont realize what they'll unleash, and others unilaterally disdain it for fear The Other Side will be shown in a positive light.

The Chaotic Neutral (hah) in me likes the idea of tossing a match into this for both good and fun.

But then again, I shudder at the thought of people for whom the concept of non-explicit good 'n evil is a non-entity or itself evil.

alpha69 said:
Trails of Cold Steel does this well
Click to expand...

In a light narrative way, it sure does. There's reasons merc groups are such a military/economical thing in a now-near modern era (just for ONE example) and I love it.
 
J

Jintor

Member
cj_iwakura said:
That kind of blows my mind
Click to expand...

the entry price is steep for something i'm unsure about, man!

Toxi said:
I like these political conflicts a lot when they take advantage of the setting. The Undead's reason for rejecting healthcare is interesting to me because it's a perspective I don't see in the real world. I have to actually start thinking in the terms of a fictional setting to consider it.

I don't really care for them when they just present simplified versions of real world arguments though. If the Dwarves and Elves were the only people weighing in, the choice presented above it would be just a boring version of the real thing. Yeah, it's Dwarves and Elves saying it instead of humans, but it's still the same old shit.
Click to expand...

Right, the fiction should affect the reasoning; merely copy/pasting real world arguments onto fantasy ones does nothing, you might as well be reading about Republicans and Democrats (unless of course you're not already versed in politics, which is common for younger/less news-pursuant readers; I know I definitely began to learn about politics through stuff like Discworld and Harry Potter, light as those elements may be in HP).

There's also the dangers of ending up with parallels that are weird, like the aforementioned Gnomish conspiracy which is pretty much a hackjob of Jewish Conspiracy theories that kinda got away from the authors (imho), and Orcs, which tends in fiction to veer either towards the degenerate dark hordes trope or the noble savages trope, neither of which are teeeechnically racist but are definitely walking a line.
 
P

predalien27

Member
CrimsonSquall said:
I love politics. Must be why Ioved FFXII so damn much
Click to expand...

I haven't played FFXII yet, but I'm really excited to eventually try it when we get the inevitable HD release.

I loved all the political drama in FF Tactics, but unfortunately the story turns into the "small time good guy fights the gods" trope that permeates JRPGS.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
predalien27 said:
I haven't played FFXII yet, but I'm really excited to eventually try it when we get the inevitable HD release.

I loved all the political drama in FF Tactics, but unfortunately the story turns into the "small time good guy fights the gods" trope that permeates JRPGS.
Click to expand...

Vagrant Story's another fantastic one. You're a small player in something that's way over your head. (See also, V:TM. Your character has no political aspirations, and never will. You just decide who to throw your lot in with.)
 
D

DataGhost

Member
I like having some politics in games. Make the world feel more alive and scheming is always fun until you yourself is stabbed in the back. Though I don't know if there is an AI that can do it in a seamless fashion.

Economy would good. That way maybe I can actually sell my stuff at exorbitant prices when there is high demand, like food and supplies in a war.

Merchant republic ahoy!
 
A

afreaknamedpete

Member
cj_iwakura said:
That kind of blows my mind. But yes, it's very well explored. The Messians and Gaians aren't just philosophical stances, they have entire political factions and organizations. The Messians believe in letting God dictate everything, including who should and shouldn't be saved, Gaians believe that everyone has free will to decide as long as they have the power to forge a path.
Click to expand...

I've played pretty much every SMT game out in the States and honestly SMT doesn't exactly do a nuanced view of things. Like the various factions are usually cult of cthulu with good intentions level, to the extent you wonder why anyone would buy into them in universe. It's basically super-darwinism versus super-theocracy, not exactly nuanced stuff. Most of the time you only interact as a player with these factions when you walk in on them massacring the innocent or conducting rituals or whatnot. I think it's all to goad you into going the "neutral" path.

Edit: Also echoing the above, Trails in the Sky First Chapter has the main conflict revolving around political differences that manages to be grounded and even realistic in universe. I thought the main enemy faction actually had the right idea. Though the sequel just turns up the ham to Saturday Morning cartoon levels.
 
cj_iwakura

cj_iwakura

Member
afreaknamedpete said:
I've played pretty much every SMT game out in the States and honestly SMT doesn't exactly do a nuanced view of things. Like the various factions are usually cult of cthulu with good intentions level, to the extent you wonder why anyone would buy into them in universe. It's basically super-darwinism versus super-theocracy, not exactly nuanced stuff. Most of the time you only interact as a player with these factions when you walk in on them massacring the innocent or conducting rituals or whatnot. I think it's all to goad you into going the "neutral" path.
Click to expand...

Each game portrays the factions with varying degrees of sympathy. The Messians are scum in nearly every game but Imagine, the Gaians are psychos in every game but SMT2(where Lucifer actively helps the weakest that were cast out by the Millennium Kingdom).
 
P

psyfi

Banned
I know it's not the pinnacle of politics in games or anything, but I really appreciated the political tones in Final Fantasy 12. Warring nations, imperialism, resistance being spun as insurgency, etc. It all felt refreshingly grounded and smart, yet it fit into the fantasy setting well.
 
C

CHC

Member
Morrowind was amazing about this. I love how they didn't lump a fantasy race into a single culture.... Even on the small island of Vvardenfell there are very diverse factions of Dark Elves, and they all interact in different ways with the encroaching Imperial forces. They also do a great job of showing how environment dictates lifestyle. When you have to go see the nomadic ashlanders up in the deserts, you totally see why they are the way they are. They're far from the cushy cities, living in an alien environment governed by isolation and superstition, it's very plausible that they look and act they way they do.

There's just so many little intricacies to that landscape that the later Elder Scrolls games completely ignore. Too bad really. Michael Kirkbride was awesome but he just hasn't had a chance to shine like he did there.

Closest thing yet to the Morrowind feel has been the Witcher III for sure. It doesn't have the same unfamiliar aesthetics, but the feeling of kingdoms clashing is really omnipresent. The cultures themselves are a bit more cliched (Vikings / fancy Knights / stern blackguards / etc) but it's still quite beautifully presented and carefully crafted.
 
D

Dark_castle

Junior Member
Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance (and Radiant Dawn, well before the final arc anyway) also had some fairly compelling story with heavy political and socioeconomic elements.
 
J

Jintor

Member
cj_iwakura said:
Vagrant Story's another fantastic one. You're a small player in something that's way over your head. (See also, V:TM. Your character has no political aspirations, and never will. You just decide who to throw your lot in with.)
Click to expand...

The best part about VTM is that the entire story kinda in the end doesn't matter and that's completely appropriate for VTM

Spoilers
Seriously the entire gigantic convoluted ankhian sarcophagus conspiracy literally just being the tutorial guy having a giggle and you and twenty other vampires getting caught in the middle because literally everybody is a paranoid fucker up to their ears in schemes and plots is so delightfully nihilistic.
That game's overplot is so damn good.
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
CHC said:
Morrowind was amazing about this. I love how they didn't lump a fantasy race into a single culture.... Even on the small island of Vvardenfell there are very diverse factions of Dark Elves, and they all interact in different ways with the encroaching Imperial forces. They also do a great job of showing how environment dictates lifestyle. When you have to go see the nomadic ashlanders up in the deserts, you totally see why they are the way they are. They're far from the cushy cities, living in an alien environment governed by isolation and superstition, it's very plausible that they look and act they way they do.

There's just so many little intricacies to that landscape that the later Elder Scrolls games completely ignore. Too bad really. Michael Kirkbride was awesome but he just hasn't had a chance to shine like he did there.

Closest thing yet to the Morrowind feel has been the Witcher III for sure. It doesn't have the same unfamiliar aesthetics, but the feeling of kingdoms clashing is really omnipresent. The cultures themselves are a bit more cliched (Vikings / fancy Knights / stern blackguards / etc) but it's still quite beautifully presented and carefully crafted.
Click to expand...

That's another one. The deeper machinations go over some that play it, I've noticed.

animlboogy said:
I am a Matsuno fanboy. Of course I like politics in my RPGs.
Click to expand...

And never shall our swords rust nor our fervor waver.
 
N

NormalFish

Banned
Love these subjects in fiction. I think they're harder in games in many ways. Economy can work (there are Elder Scrolls mods that do a good job of simulating a psuedo dynamic economy, and MMOs have player-based markets) but it's difficulty to simulate the feelings of a proper economy with the macro play that a book might introduce.

Politics is... a weird one. You can't really 'play' politics. SMT was mentioned and I think that's a decent indication of what might work. I'm not sure it suits the "politics" moniker very well, though. More like philosophical.
 
N

Neoleo2143

Member
Politics is a very odd environment to simulate with gameplay systems. Mainly because such a game would need the most advanced conversational system ever. No joke. And considering the progress there, we're not getting that game in the next couple of decades.
 
J

Jintor

Member
NormalFish said:
Love these subjects in fiction. I think they're harder in games in many ways. Economy can work (there are Elder Scrolls mods that do a good job of simulating a psuedo dynamic economy, and MMOs have player-based markets) but it's difficulty to simulate the feelings of a proper economy with the macro play that a book might introduce.

Politics is... a weird one. You can't really 'play' politics. SMT was mentioned and I think that's a decent indication of what might work. I'm not sure it suits the "politics" moniker very well, though. More like philosophical.
Click to expand...

In terms of playing them, I feel like the problem is both politics and to economics are vast systems that require multiple inputs but at its core a game has to be a single system designed by a single person (or cabal) working together, which necessarily means that any simulation system has to be designed in a certain way. (For instance, thinking about knock-on effects or results has to be pre-determined by the system in some way).

Also, it's very difficult in a politics system to care about virtual people in a way analoguous to actual politics... I think.
 
M

MilkBeard

Member
I really enjoyed the political drama that permeated most of the story in Final Fantasy Tactics. It is a shame that the game endended on a slightly more generic note.
 
Y

Yabberwocky

Member
The delving into politics/economy is definitely one of the reasons I love FFXII and F: NV so much, it does make the world feel more tangible. Dragon Age does at least have some enjoyable political world-building across the games, kinda. I need to finish FFT already!
 
P

patapuf

Member
Politics in dragon commander is great.

Not only do you have your councilmen argue, your wife (whichever you chose, also political) and your generals weigh in too.

And you don't want to piss off those either.

Definetly the most fun i've with setting policies that aren't about min/maxing like in a 4x game.
 
M

Mephala

Member
It is why I love The Legend of Heroes, Suikoden, Tactics Ogre and such games so much. The politics and plots are great. The world building is absolutely amazing. It just makes the game so much more immersive.

Similarly, I like what Mount & Blade was trying to do. The sandbox game with each province of Calradia fighting for control and the continent along with raiders and such. The vassals have different goals, some want riches while others want land. Some will like you if you're righteous while others would rather you pillage a village if it means they get paid more.
 
A

Arulan

Member
CHC said:
Morrowind was amazing about this. I love how they didn't lump a fantasy race into a single culture.... Even on the small island of Vvardenfell there are very diverse factions of Dark Elves, and they all interact in different ways with the encroaching Imperial forces. They also do a great job of showing how environment dictates lifestyle. When you have to go see the nomadic ashlanders up in the deserts, you totally see why they are the way they are. They're far from the cushy cities, living in an alien environment governed by isolation and superstition, it's very plausible that they look and act they way they do.
Click to expand...

Yes, Morrowind continues to be a fantastic example of world-building, and its attention to detail in matters of politics, culture, religion, and society, among others, is remarkable. Even more so that these details manifest beyond simple exposition and indirect lore, but in clothing, architecture, city design, etc. Almost as remarkable is the swift departure Bethesda took to building worlds after it.

Since Divinity: Dragon Commander has already been mentioned, I have to say I'm excited to see how Larian incorporates politics into Divinity: Original Sin 2. The first one was rather light on the subject, but I have to imagine with the focus on origin stories and races in the sequel, especially the latter, that they could do a lot with politics.
 
D

Durante

Member
This was a fantastic read, both entertaining and thought-provoking. And funny:
Arcanum's setting has enough depth and verisimilitude to form what we call in R'lyehian marketing-speech "Macro Environment"
Click to expand...
 
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