Support NeoGAF

OniBarubary · Oct 2, 2016

So Jonathan Holmes of Destructoid wrote an article asking their community if they should make Destructoid a "safe space" and in writing the article completely misunderstands what a safe space is and what they shelter people from. Some of the shit in this article is just...ow. And I'm super disappointed as someone who generally visits there a ton.

Have a read for yourself here: https://www.destructoid.com/do-you-want-gaming-and-related-media-to-be-your-safe-space--390607.phtml

Here's where I kinda started bleeding out my eyes from the sheer irony of his statement:

Jonathan Holmes said:
The ever-increasing demand for trigger warnings, spoilers warnings, and various other forms of content warnings. The attempt to publicly humiliate and stifle people based on their tastes or opinions. Using various labels, and the counter-labels used to try to humiliate and stifle those who are suspected of trying to humiliate and stifle others. The organized "raids" on online personalities and pundits who have "wrong opinions" in order to try to intimidate and exhaust them to the point where they stop talking. The list goes on

Sadly, gamer culture has been prey to all of these wholly undemocratic and unfriendly practices. Seeing as how AAA game marketing has worked to shape gamer culture into a petty, excluding, turf-war obsessed, "Bad Boy's Club" for more than 20 years, I don't blame a lot of younger gamers for falling prey to this nonsense. Still, I have faith in you, dear reader, and your capacity to self reflect. So tell me, do you want Destructoid to become a "safe space", where you do not have to run the risk of feeling challenged, criticized, or potentially made to feel less than perfect?

Just...ugh. Holy shit. He is directly attributing the toxicity and garbage in the gaming community at large to people who call out bullshit and get offended by racism or sexism and not the people who send death threats to women or tell you to "KEEP YOUR POLITICS OUT OF GAMING" and start whining about SJWs and PC culture when someone says maybe Titty McRapefest 2016 is kinda misogynistic.

Writing an article on Haydee and how the character has a fat ass isn't challenging. Writing an article about problematic interpretations of black stereotypes are in a white medium is fucking challenging. Writing articles about the poor portrayal and depiction of body types in video games is criticism. Writing an article about how R. Mika's butt intro getting censored is sad ISN'T FUCKING CHALLENGING OR CRITICAL.

No one, NO ONE, is asking to not be challenged, criticized or...ugh "potentially made to feel less than perfect" (Jesus Christ that statement is horrifying); people are asking that you be a decent human being and not a total shitbag and that if you really can't restrain yourself from saying something that is neither criticism nor challenging but is just a fucking shitty thing to say then a safe space makes sure you have to actually put thought into what you're saying and NOT do those dumb fuckboy things.

This is incredibly disappointing from a person whose articles (and site) I enjoy.

Izuna · Oct 2, 2016

This is still a very difficult concept for me to grasp. No matter how much I read I can't figure out the necessity of a safe space...

Is it just to protect people from violence?

migh_and_highty · Oct 2, 2016

Humanity has stooped so low, we must defend people from words!

DedValve · Oct 2, 2016

Cobalt Izuna said:
This is still a very difficult concept for me to grasp. No matter how much I read I can't figure out the necessity of a safe space...

Is it just to protect people from violence?

I could be wrong on this but my interpretation is The idea is that it is usually reserved for minorities who have or are at risk of experiencing life difficulties just for being a minority and nothing more and come together and build a community.

This also applies outside of just ethnicity, for example there can be a safe space for rape victims, drug addicts, women, lgbtq, etc.

It can also be a place (much like a church group) where people congregate, come together and leave any hangups.

It is NOT a place to hide toxic thoughts or be an echo chamber for said thoughts which is sadly the case at times and where people get confused.

EDIT: On topic this is pretty fucking gross. What I hate most is the way they just totally sideline that these people are usually the ones doing the harassing creating the need for actual safe spaces then getting annoyed when said spaces aren't for them because, hello! Your a fucking bully.

The point of a safe space is not to not have your ideals challenged, its to be among others who understand you and want to help you.

Enter The 36 Chambers · Oct 2, 2016

I always regret reading articles and threads about safe spaces and trigger warnings no matter what side of the debate it is.

All just so fucking silly and apparently missing the point.

No matter how much I read I never seem to understand what the hell people are actually talking about.

RecRoulette · Oct 2, 2016

Is this supposed to be satire?

Sabas · Oct 2, 2016

There were good people at Destructioid. Most of them left though. This article is garbage.

flintstryker · Oct 2, 2016

I have read various arguments about safe space and I am still not sure I get it, maybe its one of those instance where being a foreigner is playing against me, because I have never heard anything about this back home in my Uni and I just left last year.

gogojira · Oct 2, 2016

Online harassment and bullying is disgusting, but his wording is the opposite end of the spectrum and is pretty ridiculous.

The answer here has to be no, but I don't think Destructoid is going to be capable of creating a safety bubble anyways.

Mailbox · Oct 2, 2016

Cobalt Izuna said:
This is still a very difficult concept for me to grasp. No matter how much I read I can't figure out the necessity of a safe space...

Is it just to protect people from violence?

its basically a place where people who are subjugated to high levels of social pressure and ridicule by bigots (for example, my uni has a safe space for LGBT persons (even have little mascots and everything, its quite cute)) so that they can actually feel safe. Basically its a space where you can't attack someone for say, being gay or trans or black or... you get the picture. A safe space (or at least the one at my uni does this) also has services (like consoling and staff) to help people through issues related to whatever the safe space is about.

In an environment such as a Uni, where stress and anxiety rule the week and fear is in the minds of many, having to deal with bigots can be really really horrid to an already weakened and insecure mind. Safe spaces alleviate at least some of that.

People talking about echo chambers and whatnot miss the whole point of safe spaces.

Karuto · Oct 2, 2016

You shouldn't have to create a safe space on your site or turn your site into one as long as there is careful and efficient moderation and encouragement towards civil discussion. As long as you try to steer things towards a positive environment, then you naturally have a pleasant place to speak your mind without hurtful or toxic discourse. If you feel your site isn't delivering on that, look at the type of content you are putting out or the members of the community you are ignoring. Or even better - create editorials that look at both sides of an issue instead of using an "us vs. them" mentality. It's as simple as that.

Squire · Oct 2, 2016

Holmes has always, always been a weirdo that rubbed me the wrong way. This really isn't very surprising.

chrominance · Oct 2, 2016

RecRoulette said:
Is this supposed to be satire?

I honestly can't tell. People have definitely played up the angle of "safe space from trigger warnings and social critique" thing for laughs before, but I don't know even after reading the article if we're meant to take this seriously or not.

Lady Gaia · Oct 2, 2016

migh_and_highty said:
Humanity has stooped so low, we must defend people from words!

If you've never been targeted by continuous toxic language then you may not have any idea of just how damaging it can be. It's easy enough to shrug off the occasional attack but when you stew in them 24/7 it gets old really fast. It also emboldens people to perpetuate the cycle, leading to depression and worse among those targeted.

OniBarubary · Oct 2, 2016

Letting your comment section fill with toxicity and people calling women whores or posting tits all the time or calling people SJW feminazis for putting a bra strap on a Japanese game's character art isn't fucking critical or challenging

Moderating your environment to make everyone who loves your hobby feel able to discuss it there without being overwhelmed by a tide of shitty humanity is hardly something to bemoan.

voodoopanda · Oct 2, 2016

Can't tell who the safe space this article is referring to is for. Is it about creating a safe space where editorials don't talk about politics and social issues so as not to offend the people who just want light, fun video game articles? It almost kinda reads that way?

If not, where exactly do you think the line should be between honest and uncensored editorial and editing your work in an effort to cater to your audience?

What would an example of a censored vs uncensored Destructoid editorial be? What audience would they be catering to?

Dalibor68 · Oct 2, 2016

So did you just come and post this thread so people pat on your shoulder and agree with you, or what's up with the phrasing of the threads title? Not much constructive discussion to be expected when you come with things like "Titty McRapefest" amongst other highly hyperbolic statements(bleeding out of your eyes, seriously?).

Messofanego · Oct 2, 2016

We have what could be deemed as "safe spaces" here on GAF in the form of LGBT, Black Culture, Girl-GAF, and other Official Topics for marginalised people. People seem to be respectful, and get scolded appropriately if they come in with silly questions or trying to start some drama. I honestly never understand the outrage people have for the existence for safe spaces, like not every space needs to be for everyone, you know?

Sianos · Oct 2, 2016

The attempt to publicly humiliate and stifle people based on their tastes or opinions.

Jonathan Holmes' on when people criticize him.

So tell me, do you want Destructoid to become a "safe space", where you do not have to run the risk of feeling challenged, criticized, or potentially made to feel less than perfect?

Jonathan Holmes' on when he criticizes people.

The first step to cultivating an environment where people can be rationally challenged, criticized, or made to feel less than perfect so as to enable a learning process of self-growth is to try not seeing everyone who challenges you, criticizes you, or makes you feel less than perfect as trying to publicly humiliate you or stifle your opinions.

Mailbox · Oct 2, 2016

voodoopanda said:
What would an example of a censored vs uncensored Destructoid editorial be?

Yeah, that quote seems... fucked up actually. Everything in this sort of business is about catering to people to stay relevant, so to say "we want to be uncensored" is complete bullshit. At best this specific quote reads as ignorant bs and at worst is trying to say that making bigoted and idiotic remarks as a good thing.

Its pretty much insinuating that moderation and editing is somehow evil.

rochellepaws · Oct 2, 2016

What's wrong with not wanting political messages in your games or games journalism?

mollipen · Oct 2, 2016

Messofanego said:
We have what could be deemed as "safe spaces" here on GAF in the form of LGBT, Black Culture, Girl-GAF, and other Official Topics for marginalised people.

Those threads aren't "safe spaces", the entirely of GAF is.

Coffee Dog · Oct 2, 2016

rochellepaws said:
What's wrong with not wanting political messages in your games or games journalism?

Art draws from the world around us and as such is inherently political.

Sianos · Oct 2, 2016

rochellepaws said:
What's wrong with not wanting political messages in your games or games journalism?

So tell me, do you want Destructoid to become a "safe space", where you do not have to run the risk of feeling challenged, criticized, or potentially made to feel less than perfect?

Garrett Hawke · Oct 2, 2016

What does this even mean...

Should comments be moderated and people banned for posting hate speech? Yes, and it has nothing to do with free speech.

Heck, GAF could be considered a "safe space" insomuch that bigotry and insults aren't tolerated, and that's not a bad thing. It actually encourages informed discussion.

Dumb article and yeah, seems to completely misunderstand what safe spaces are and what they're used for in favour of pandering "DAE we shouldn't censor free speech???"

OniBarubary · Oct 2, 2016

Coffee Dog said:
Art draws from the world around us and as such is inherently political.

Bingo.

Izuna · Oct 2, 2016

Mailbox said:
its basically a place where people who are subjugated to high levels of social pressure and ridicule by bigots (for example, my uni has a safe space for LGBT persons (even have little mascots and everything, its quite cute)) so that they can actually feel safe. Basically its a space where you can't attack someone for say, being gay or trans or black or... you get the picture. A safe space (or at least the one at my uni does this) also has services (like consoling and staff) to help people through issues related to whatever the safe space is about.

In an environment such as a Uni, where stress and anxiety rule the week and fear is in the minds of many, having to deal with bigots can be really really horrid to an already weakened and insecure mind. Safe spaces alleviate at least some of that.

People talking about echo chambers and whatnot miss the whole point of safe spaces.

Right so, this doesn't apply to the UK. If someone is spewing slurs or acting like a asshole they'd get in trouble, how is that common in a University of adults?

I don't know but it doesn't sound like segregating people solves anything, it just makes the two groups grow further apart

Coffee Dog · Oct 2, 2016

mollipen said:
Those threads aren't safe spaces, the entirely of GAF is.

Uh, no. Go into any thread about race/gender/politics and you'll find a lot of ignorant people with incorrect and harmful opinions.

Safe spaces are spaces free from ignorant majorities. That is their function.

Mailbox · Oct 2, 2016

Messofanego said:
We have what could be deemed as "safe spaces" here on GAF in the form of LGBT, Black Culture, Girl-GAF, and other Official Topics for marginalised people. People seem to be respectful, and get scolded appropriately if they come in with silly questions or trying to start some drama. I honestly never understand the outrage people have for the existence for safe spaces, like not every space needs to be for everyone, you know?

People have this idiotic idea that needing a safe space means people are weak and weakness is dumb and if we give it to them we are coddling, which is just the most infuriating piece of BS I see every time a Safe Space thread is ever made.

Its super messed up when in a news thread something is saying "lets get rid of safe spaces" most people in the thread go for the "YEAH, safe spaces a BS and we should stop coddling in our universities" rhetoric. Its maddening.

nynt9 · Oct 2, 2016

The owner of Destructoid said this:

I think overall GamerGate is positive."

Take that as you will. I'm not going to link to sources because most sources are pro gamer gate sites circle jerking about this, but you can google it and find out yourself.

flintstryker · Oct 2, 2016

Sianos said:
So tell me, do you want Destructoid to become a "safe space", where you do not have to run the risk of feeling challenged, criticized, or potentially made to feel less than perfect?

What does this have to do with the question he asked?

Garrett Hawke · Oct 2, 2016

Cobalt Izuna said:
Right so, this doesn't apply to the UK. If someone is spewing slurs or acting like a asshole they'd get in trouble, how is that common in a University of adults?

I don't know but it doesn't sound like segregating people solves anything, it just makes the two groups grow further apart

not really. For example, gay clubs could be considered safe spaces for gay people, because when they go into "straight clubs" and be affectionate with their partners they are at a much higher risk of getting assaulted.

Safe spaces have a use and they are not threatening or a problem for the people who they don't apply to.

Dalibor68 · Oct 2, 2016

Coffee Dog said:
Uh, no. Go into any thread about race/gender/politics and you'll find a lot of ignorant people with incorrect and harmful opinions.

Safe spaces are spaces free from ignorant majorities. That is their function.

"Incorrect opinions" lol. Actually I think your post is quite a good example to show how the concept, which in general is not bad, can be perversed into shutting out whoever you don't like. You don't have the godgiven right to decide what is an "incorrect" or "harmful" opinion. Obviously there are certain types of hate speech that are generally agreed to fall under that but it's hardly ever so black or white.

Mailbox · Oct 2, 2016

Cobalt Izuna said:
Right so, this doesn't apply to the UK. If someone is spewing slurs or acting like a asshole they'd get in trouble, how is that common in a University of adults?

I don't know but it doesn't sound like segregating people solves anything, it just makes the two groups grow further apart

considering the large uptick in racism towards Muslims and foreigners in the UK recently, i'd say having a space where people can catch their breadth, relax from the constant swarm of hate, and maybe even study or do some light work without feeling cornered might actually be beneficial. Safe Spaces aren't about segregation (I'm not LGBT, but I can still enter the safe space, for example) its just about giving people a space where people can act somewhat civil in a climate where that might not be possible.

If you see it as "segregation", you've missed the whole point.

Sianos · Oct 2, 2016

flintstryker said:
What does this have to do with the question he asked?

They are explicitly asking for gaming to be a safe space away from political messages.

Whatever this implies is left as an exercise for the reader.

Garrett Hawke · Oct 2, 2016

Sianos said:
They are explicitly asking for gaming to be a safe space away from political messages.

Safe from the feminist illuminati

Karuto · Oct 2, 2016

Sianos said:
They are explicitly asking for gaming to be a safe space away from political messages.

Whatever this implies is left as an exercise for the reader.

Which is incredibly difficult considering there are plenty of games that want to inject politics or the creators themselves are deeply embedded in it. Not a conspiracy theory, just something that feels evident at times. But like I said, it's important to avoid that "us vs. them" mentality that causes so many issues with people to begin with.

rochellepaws · Oct 2, 2016

Coffee Dog said:
Art draws from the world around us and as such is inherently political.

To an extent, but they don't have to be overtly political. There's a difference between content with themes which can be interpreted as political and very direct messaging.

Enter The 36 Chambers · Oct 2, 2016

Coffee Dog said:
Uh, no. Go into any thread about race/gender/politics and you'll find a lot of ignorant people with incorrect and harmful opinions.

Safe spaces are spaces free from ignorant majorities. That is their function.

See this is the shit that makes me not want to even engage and try and learn whats being discussed.

Incorrect opinions? What?

Boombox On · Oct 2, 2016

rochellepaws said:
What's wrong with not wanting political messages in your games or games journalism?

Among the things already mentioned, games and games journalism are not "yours." They are a public medium.

It's fine if you want to use games as an escapism of sorts. Just like with movies, TV shows or music, that will never go away. No one is asking for the next UFC game to talk about classism. But not everyone looks for that all the time, and having some games that address issues and others that don't are not impossible to have in the same space.

Mailbox · Oct 2, 2016

Enter The 36 Chambers said:
See this is the shit that makes me not want to even engage and try and learn whats being discussed.

Incorrect opinions? What?

Opinions made through factually incorrect data or info.
ex: anti vaxxers have an incorrect opinion on vaccination and its importance

not that hard to have some reading comprehension

Sakujou · Oct 2, 2016

i cant take this shit any more. safe spaces for what?
who is taking shelter from whom?
the whole internet culture is going batshit for last 6 years.

Garrett Hawke · Oct 2, 2016

Enter The 36 Chambers said:
See this is the shit that makes me not want to even engage and try and learn whats being discussed.

Incorrect opinions? What?

There are harmful opinions and they often fall under "hate speech". It's not a difficult concept.

When people say "incorrect opinions", they're not talking about like "I think Mass Effect 3 sucks." They're talking about things like "I don't think media representation of women has any effect on behaviour" which is an incorrect opinion because it is in direct contrast to a myriad of studies which have been done to show the opposite.

When people say "harmful opinions", they're not talking about things like "I think pre order culture is fine." They're talking about things like "I hate having x minority in my games because it's not justified." Those sort of opinions are harmful because they reinforce minority roles in society as lesser and outsiders.

Izuna · Oct 2, 2016

Mailbox said:
considering the large uptick in racism towards Muslims and foreigners in the UK recently, i'd say having a space where people can catch their breadth, relax from the constant swarm of hate, and maybe even study or do some light work without feeling cornered might actually be beneficial. Safe Spaces aren't about segregation (I'm not LGBT, but I can still enter the safe space, for example) its just about giving people a space where people can act somewhat civil in a climate where that might not be possible.

If you see it as "segregation", you've missed the whole point.

This doesn't happen within the University though. But the point is, if people need to be in safe spaces, then that makes sense that there's a problem -- it's just that, this problem isn't rectified by separating people. Unacceptable behaviour should be determined and as long as no one breaks that, all's good right?

Unless America is the sort of place where harassing someone or calling them slurs isn't good enough reason for disciplinary action.

rochellepaws · Oct 2, 2016

Boombox On said:
Among the things already mentioned, games and games journalism are not "yours." They are a public medium.

It's fine if you want to use games as an escapism of sorts. Just like with movies, TV shows or music, that will never go away. But not everyone looks for that all the time, and having some games that address issues and others that don't are not impossible to have in the same space.

I completely accept and understand why some would enjoy that. I'm just offering my opinion and questioning why the OP would label that as "toxic" or "garbage".

I like games as escapism as you said and like games media to be as politically neutral as possible. That's just my preference, I don't understand why someone would condemn it.

Nonoriri · Oct 2, 2016

Enter The 36 Chambers said:
See this is the shit that makes me not want to even engage and try and learn whats being discussed.

Incorrect opinions? What?

Do you actually think opinions can never be wrong?

That is itself a great example of a wrong opinion by the way.

Sianos · Oct 2, 2016

Karuto said:
Which is incredibly difficult considering there are plenty of games that want to inject politics or the creators themselves are deeply embedded in it. Not a conspiracy theory, just something that feels evident at times. But like I said, it's important to avoid that "us vs. them" mentality that causes so many issues with people to begin with.

I understand that people use video games as a mechanism for escapism: sometimes I do as well, and I love to debate. It is indeed true that some people do not want to be a part of a debate at all times, especially when they are considered to be a part of the debate by default because of a trait such as "enjoys video games". I can understand that sometimes people just need a safe space to relax away from the constant societal pressure. Granted, this also does not mean that all video games should be treated as a safe space away from political messages. But that disclaimer does not mean it is okay to attempt to exclude people from video games, either: it is a call to maintain civil discourse in the public sphere.

You can also substitute other, more salient traits in for "enjoys video games" such as "is black" or "is homosexual".

rochellepaws said:
I completely accept and understand why some would enjoy that. I'm just offering my opinion and questioning why the OP would label that as "toxic" or "garbage".

I like games as escapism as you said and like games media to be as politically neutral as possible. That's just my preference, I don't understand why someone would condemn it.

The only person condemning you here is Jonathan Holmes.

Lowmelody · Oct 2, 2016

Enter The 36 Chambers said:
See this is the shit that makes me not want to even engage and try and learn whats being discussed.

Incorrect opinions? What?

This is some remedial bullshit right here.

Done with anyone tilting against "outrage culture", SJWs, political correctness or safe places. It will never be anything more than a desire to say or hear hateful shit about a minority without consequence.

Kinyou · Oct 2, 2016

OniBarubary said:
Just...ugh. Holy shit. He is directly attributing the toxicity and garbage in the gaming community at large to people who call out bullshit and get offended by racism or sexism and not the people who send death threats to women or tell you to "KEEP YOUR POLITICS OUT OF GAMING" and start whining about SJWs and PC culture when someone says maybe Titty McRapefest 2016 is kinda misogynistic.

I'm not sure about that. This seems to directly refer to gamergaters

Sadly, gamer culture has been prey to all of these wholly undemocratic and unfriendly practices. Seeing as how AAA game marketing has worked to shape gamer culture into a petty, excluding, turf-war obsessed, "Bad Boy's Club" for more than 20 years, I don't blame a lot of younger gamers for falling prey to this nonsense.

Dalibor68 · Oct 2, 2016

Lowmelody said:
This is some remedial bullshit right here.

Done with anyone tilting against "outrage culture", SJWs, political correctness or safe places. It will never be anything more than a desire to say or hear hateful shit about a minority without consequence.

Opinions can per definition not be "incorrect". When something can be objectively proven right or wrong it's an assertion.

Support NeoGAF

[Destructoid] Article on Safe Spaces Completely Misses the Point

Banned

Banned

Neo Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Banned

Banned

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Member

Banned

Member

If your name is Nonoriri you have to go buy Nanami's tampons.

Member

Member

Member

Banned

Similar threads