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Wollan
The reason why I will never ever be banned.
(12-06-2016, 02:45 PM)
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Like AMD donated Mantle to Khronos which became the foundation of the Vulkan graphics API : In similar fashion Valve has now donated OpenVR to Khronos in hopes it can help kickstart the VR standardization initiative.

Hopefully this will help combat the fragmentation seen within the PC & Android VR markets.

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Genera...ard-Initiative

https://www.khronos.org/news/press/k...rds-initiative

Left is the current situation:


Current support:


I guess Apple will still announce MetalVR or something similar in the next year though.
Last edited by Wollan; 12-06-2016 at 10:15 PM.
Compsiox
Member
(12-06-2016, 02:47 PM)
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Good guy Valve.
derFeef
lil' bit tasty
(12-06-2016, 02:50 PM)
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Good. Sadly that won't help much with software exclusive deals. Or at least would make those things much more difficult.
jmga
Member
(12-06-2016, 02:55 PM)
I'm surprised Oculus is supporting this, I suppose they won't contribute with any of their proprietary technologies like Asynchronous Space Warp.

Also, bad Sony and Microsoft for not joining the initiative.
lucebuce12
Member
(12-06-2016, 02:56 PM)
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I applaud them for taking the initiative and certainly hope it works but I can't help shake the feeling that this is going to happen.

Veritigo_X
Member
(12-06-2016, 02:58 PM)
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This is a great thing. VR can't afford to be so fragmented this early in its life. Though I wish Oculus would contribute more to the spirit of open software.
Wollan
The reason why I will never ever be banned.
(12-06-2016, 03:03 PM)
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Originally Posted by jmga

I'm surprised Oculus is supporting this, I suppose they won't contribute with any of their proprietary technologies like Asynchronous Space Warp.

They are (I suspect) third in PC/console market in terms of unit-sales and likely to become second on Android with Daydream growing. They don't have a Mac, iPhone or Linux presence. Too much momentum elsewhere for Oculus to combat.
Facebook is not inherently against open-sourcing & standardizing stuff anyhow, the ultimate goal is to make us all work as batteries while in the Facebook metaverse.
Abilidebob
Member
(12-06-2016, 03:03 PM)

Originally Posted by derFeef

Good. Sadly that won't help much with software exclusive deals. Or at least would make those things much more difficult.

Sadly? Why would you want software exclusivity for VR?
derFeef
lil' bit tasty
(12-06-2016, 03:05 PM)
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Originally Posted by Abilidebob

Sadly? Why would you want software exclusivity for VR?

I don't.
Abilidebob
Member
(12-06-2016, 03:10 PM)

Originally Posted by derFeef

I don't.

Then I read your post wrong, sorry.
Thraktor
Member
(12-06-2016, 03:20 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I applaud them for taking the initiative and certainly hope it works but I can't help shake the feeling that this is going to happen.

OpenVR is an already existing standard, and the most commonly used one on PC. The only issue was that, despite the name, it wasn't fully open and was controlled by a company both in the business of selling VR headsets and games, so moving it over to Khronos removes any potential conflict of interest regarding its future development.

I'd like to see Microsoft support OpenVR with Scorpio rather than release another proprietary headset like Sony, but MS and open standards don't typically go together.
Wollan
The reason why I will never ever be banned.
(12-06-2016, 03:27 PM)
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My only concern, and one that speaks for Oculus approach so far, is that it might yet still be too early for standardization (with i.e foveated rendering/interaction incoming) but the experts would know. I see Carmack mentioning something on this:

“Khronos’ open APIs have been immensely valuable to the industry, balancing the forces of differentiation and innovation against gratuitous vendor incompatibility. As virtual reality matures and the essential capabilities become clear in practice, a cooperatively developed open standard API is a natural and important milestone. Oculus is happy to contribute to this effort,” said John Carmack, CTO, Oculus VR.

pmj
Member
(12-06-2016, 03:29 PM)

Originally Posted by Thraktor

I'd like to see Microsoft support OpenVR with Scorpio rather than release another proprietary headset like Sony, but MS and open standards don't typically go together.

Sure they do, they have a long history of embracing open standards.
Lister
Member
(12-06-2016, 03:32 PM)
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Originally Posted by Thraktor

OpenVR is an already existing standard, and the most commonly used one on PC. The only issue was that, despite the name, it wasn't fully open and was controlled by a company both in the business of selling VR headsets and games, so moving it over to Khronos removes any potential conflict of interest regarding its future development.

I'd like to see Microsoft support OpenVR with Scorpio rather than release another proprietary headset like Sony, but MS and open standards don't typically go together.

They have started to embrace it though, with .net core, for example.
Thraktor
Member
(12-06-2016, 04:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by pmj

Sure they do, they have a long history of embracing open standards.

Originally Posted by Lister

They have started to embrace it though, with .net core, for example.

That's fair enough, I should have been more specific that I was referring to graphics standards, where Khronos's standards are typically adopted by pretty much everyone but Microsoft.

Originally Posted by Wollan

My only concern, and one that speaks for Oculus approach so far, is that it might yet still be too early for standardization (with i.e foveated rendering/interaction incoming) but the experts would know. I see Carmack mentioning something on this:

It's much more likely to take a sensible approach to standardisation of features like foveated rendering under Khronos, though, where pretty much every relevant party can be involved in deciding how to implement new functionality.
Last edited by Thraktor; 12-06-2016 at 04:20 PM.
pmj
Member
(12-06-2016, 05:16 PM)

Originally Posted by Thraktor

That's fair enough, I should have been more specific that I was referring to graphics standards, where Khronos's standards are typically adopted by pretty much everyone but Microsoft.

Sorry, I was making a dumb joke about Microsoft's "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish" tactics of old, used to kill competition.
Astral/H3X
Member
(12-06-2016, 05:18 PM)
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VR is one of those things that does need a catchall. And since they are donating their API, it's not that there is another standard, it's that an existing standard is just more available, which is a good thing.
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(12-06-2016, 05:22 PM)
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Fantastic! More sharing and collaboration to kickstart the VR standardization initiative is always a great thing in my book. We actually need this in the VR space.
PeterOliver
Junior Member
(12-06-2016, 05:25 PM)
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Thank goodness for Valve.

The commoditization of VR hardware is chugging along slowly but surely.
Eusis
Member
(12-06-2016, 05:29 PM)
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Originally Posted by derFeef

Good. Sadly that won't help much with software exclusive deals. Or at least would make those things much more difficult.

Or easier to leave. Would become a matter of throwing it onto Steam or wherever rather than a serious rework.
Compsiox
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:21 PM)
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Someone needs to include those hand controllers in OVR. There are like 3 different ones. They're bound to fail if they're not apart of the API.
Nzyme32
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:24 PM)
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Fantastic! Been waiting for this move and looking forward to seeing how they'll do.

Edit - image seems broken in the OP so here it is:

Last edited by Nzyme32; 12-06-2016 at 08:27 PM.
Somnid
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:26 PM)
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I would hope they plan to align with WebVR which is knee-deep in development.
Teknopathetic
Now we can settle this like gentlemen or we can get into some ol gangster shit
(12-06-2016, 08:31 PM)
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"I applaud them for taking the initiative and certainly hope it works but I can't help shake the feeling that this is going to happen."


This is the opposite situation of that comic. One organization is relinquishing their VR API to another.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(12-06-2016, 08:35 PM)
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AWESOME!

OpenVR was the closest thing we had to an open standard, but it was just that: the closest thing.

The only way an actual open industry standard can exist is to be governed by an independent consortium. And the only established institution in this field who could be equipped to do so is Khronos.

I repeat, AWESOME.
Zepp Twofist
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:37 PM)
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Hope this works out.
Zalusithix
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:42 PM)

Originally Posted by Teknopathetic

"I applaud them for taking the initiative and certainly hope it works but I can't help shake the feeling that this is going to happen."


This is the opposite situation of that comic. One organization is relinquishing their VR API to another.

And the donating organization also happens to have the current unofficial standard used by the majority of games and applications. It's not a utopia situation, but it's certainly a step in the right direction.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(12-06-2016, 08:42 PM)
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Just looked through the available information (https://www.khronos.org/vr/), and it seems like everyone who is anyone in VR is on board:



With the obvious exception of Sony, but that is largely irrelevant to open computing devices.
Nzyme32
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:42 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I applaud them for taking the initiative and certainly hope it works but I can't help shake the feeling that this is going to happen.

You've completely missed the point - this is the opposite situation Valve ceded over their own OpenVR API, to Khronos - an independent consortium, which is the only real way to have a properly developing Open standard (even though OpenVR is pretty much just that). This is like AMD giving Mantle as base to develop Vulkan and everyone pulling together on that.

Originally Posted by Durante

Just looked through the available information (https://www.khronos.org/vr/), and it seems like everyone who is anyone in VR is on board:



With the obvious exception of Sony, but that is largely irrelevant to open computing devices.

Even fucking better!
Easy_D
never left the stone age
(12-06-2016, 08:44 PM)
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Sometimes I ask myself what Valve even does these days and then they do awesome shit like this
Arulan
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:47 PM)
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Fantastic news.

Originally Posted by Durante

Just looked through the available information (https://www.khronos.org/vr/), and it seems like everyone who is anyone in VR is on board:



With the obvious exception of Sony, but that is largely irrelevant to open computing devices.

I wonder if the absence of Microsoft means their low-cost Windows 10 VR HMD initiative with Acer, Asus, Lenovo, and so-on will use some UWP-related bullshit.
Zalusithix
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:49 PM)

Originally Posted by Easy_D

Sometimes I ask myself what Valve even does these days and then they do awesome shit like this

In the case of PC VR, Valve has been instrumental in getting the tech out there. Even the Rift owes much of its existence to Valve.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Arulan

Fantastic news.



I wonder if the absence of Microsoft means their low-cost Windows 10 VR HMD initiative with Acer, Asus, Lenovo, and so-on will use some UWP-related bullshit.

It'll be a cold day in hell when MS cedes a standards fight before it even tried. =P
Last edited by Zalusithix; 12-06-2016 at 08:53 PM.
Pandy
Member
(12-06-2016, 08:51 PM)
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This needs to happen for this wave of VR to become a long-term success.

Buying a VR device should be like buying a TV, not like buying a games console.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(12-06-2016, 08:52 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zalusithix

In the case of PC VR, Valve has been instrumental in getting the tech out there. Even the Rift owes much of its existence to Valve.

And arguably the main reason such a thing as the multiple "experimental room scale modes" that Touch currently has available are a thing is because of Valve.

Originally Posted by Pandy

Buying a VR device should be like buying a TV, not like buying a games console.

Honestly, in terms of content portability, nothing should be like buying a games console -- and actually, now that I think about it, nothing else is.
Nzyme32
Member
(12-06-2016, 09:33 PM)
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Steam post about it:

Today the Khronos Group announced[khr.io] a new open standard initiative for VR. The goal is to allow VR hardware and software to talk to each other without the need to go through anybody’s proprietary API.

As the number of competing VR systems grows, this effort will provide a stable platform for application developers to target. And as new VR headset manufacturers come online, the same standard will give them access to a broad set of applications without the need to convince anyone to port those applications to the new piece of hardware.

This new standard is the next logical step from what we’ve been working on with OpenVR. The VR team at Valve is hard at work with the rest of the VR standard group at Khronos to define these APIs. Over time we expect significant pieces of OpenVR itself to be replaced by the Khronos APIs.

If you work on VR hardware or engines, we invite you to join us and work on the standard through Khronos. You can find information about joining Khronos on the Khronos site

Izuna
Member
(12-06-2016, 09:37 PM)
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This is beautiful news.
12Dannu123
Junior Member
(12-06-2016, 09:43 PM)

Originally Posted by Arulan

Fantastic news.



I wonder if the absence of Microsoft means their low-cost Windows 10 VR HMD initiative with Acer, Asus, Lenovo, and so-on will use some UWP-related bullshit.

It's been confirmed that Windows Holographic (The OS that powers AR and VR) is proprietary, but with some open source components. But lets be honest, Microsoft has the biggest amount of power to swoop in the VR and take it all,

their OS works with Scorpio, PC, HoloLens, and other AR and VR headsets (With the top five 5 PC OEMs),
they are tightly integrating the OS into Windows 10 PC, meaning EVERY headset that doesn't have an OS, will boot into Windows Holographic.
have the lowest priced dedicated VR headsets.
Windows 10's 400 million users and growing and Xbox big presence in the gaming market.
Windows 10's yearly updates meaning everybody is on the latest OS. (over 80% of Windows 10 users are on the Anniversary Update)
UWP will the key, as UWP is forced on Xbox and their VR/AR OS and will seep into PC UWP with Scorpio.
DX12 exclusive and majority of games are supporting it over Vulkan.

All of this is a deadly combination that should be taken seriously with Khronos and they know it, hence Valve opening up OpenVR
Last edited by 12Dannu123; 12-06-2016 at 10:07 PM.
Nzyme32
Member
(12-06-2016, 09:53 PM)
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Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

It's been confirmed that Windows Holographic (The OS that powers AR and VR) is proprietary, but with some open source components. But lets be honest, Microsoft has the biggest amount of power to swoop in the VR and take it all, their OS works with Scorpio, PC, HoloLens, and other AR and VR headsets, they are tightly integrating the OS into Windows 10 PC and have the lowest priced dedicated VR headsets. Windows 10's 400 million users and growing and Xbox's significant presence in the gaming market is a deadly combination that should be taken seriously with Khronos and they know it, hence Valve opening up OpenVR

This has nothing to do with Microsoft. The whole point of OpenVR was to do exactly this (with the mandate of opening up to be independent of themselves) - it has been discussed as such from its conception, and one of the bigger targets was to prevent someone creating a proprietary standard to act as gatekeeper - even if Microsoft attempts it, it will be difficult for them to get support. There is no DX variant for them to call upon and the strongest support is already with OpenVR and to a lesser extent Oculus. Now all relevant parties are backing Khronos.
Fafalada
Fafracer forever
(12-06-2016, 09:58 PM)

Originally Posted by jmga

I'm surprised Oculus is supporting this, I suppose they won't contribute with any of their proprietary technologies like Asynchronous Space Warp.

This is about agreeing on a common interface, not any underlying drivers. Think of ASW like NVidia Gameworks - the latter doesn't mean NVidia isn't supporting DX or Vulcan.

Originally Posted by Wollan

My only concern, and one that speaks for Oculus approach so far, is that it might yet still be too early for standardization (with i.e foveated rendering/interaction incoming)

Taking that approach DirectX shouldn't have existed until 2006 or there-about. More importantly let VR Standard stay the hell away from rendering-pipeline, as it has no business incorporating that.

Originally Posted by Durante

Honestly, in terms of content portability, nothing should be like buying a games console -- and actually, now that I think about it, nothing else is.

Well buying VR devices kind of is right now.
12Dannu123
Junior Member
(12-06-2016, 10:06 PM)

Originally Posted by Nzyme32

This has nothing to do with Microsoft. The whole point of OpenVR was to do exactly this (with the mandate of opening up to be independent of themselves) - it has been discussed as such from its conception, and one of the bigger targets was to prevent someone creating a proprietary standard to act as gatekeeper - even if Microsoft attempts it, it will be difficult for them to get support. There is no DX variant for them to call upon and the strongest support is already with OpenVR and to a lesser extent Oculus. Now all relevant parties are backing Khronos.

This has everything to do with Microsoft. Because they already started the Wall Garden, with Windows 10. The reason why they aren't on the group is because they have their own standard and are a monopoly over it, they know they can control the PC Gaming market, who do you think Windows 10 has 50% of Steam usage? with Windows 10 and Xbox with the VR market they can reign supreme if they play their cards right.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(12-06-2016, 10:09 PM)
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Heh, I'm always amused by the "important quotes by important people" part of these press releases.

Tim Sweeney, founder & CEO, Epic Games.
Mike Jazayeri, director product management, Google VR.
John Carmack, CTO, Oculus VR.
Christopher Mitchell, OSVR business lead, Razer.
....
Gabe Newell of Valve

Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

It's been confirmed that Windows Holographic (The OS that powers AR and VR) is proprietary, but with some open source components. But lets be honest, Microsoft has the biggest amount of power to swoop in the VR and take it all

Seriously? A company without any VR hardware -- or even a software API, or a runtime system, or a just a VR store -- on the market has "the biggest amount of power"?
No. Just no. MS, like with most things happening in the consumer computing space in the past decade, is late to the party. Unfashionably so.
12Dannu123
Junior Member
(12-06-2016, 10:12 PM)

Originally Posted by Durante

Heh, I'm always amused by the "important quotes by important people" part of these press releases.



Seriously? A company without any VR hardware -- or even a software API, or a runtime system, or a just a VR store -- on the market has "the biggest amount of power"? No. Just no. MS, like with most things happening in the consumer computing space in the past decade, is late to the party. Unfashionably so.

Microsoft has the hardware. They got HP, Lenovo, Asus, Acer and Dell producing the hardware, they have the API, DX12, they got Windows Holographic, which is the OS, they got the Store, which is the Windows Store. It's been all over the news that Microsoft is in the VR race, just not doing hardware as they have HoloLens.
Nzyme32
Member
(12-06-2016, 10:15 PM)
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Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

This has everything to do with Microsoft. Because they already started the Wall Garden, with Windows 10. The reason why they aren't on the group is because they have their own standard and are a monopoly over it, they know they can control the PC Gaming market, who do you think Windows 10 has 50% of Steam usage? with Windows 10 and Xbox with the VR market they can reign supreme if they play their cards right.

You utterly misinterpret what I am saying

Windows 10's 400 million users and growing and Xbox's significant presence in the gaming market is a deadly combination that should be taken seriously with Khronos and they know it, hence Valve opening up OpenVR

This is nonsense and completely skips over what has been happening with OpenVR from its conception - with the plan from the start to do exactly this and be independent of themselves collaborating with an open consortium developing it further. Microsoft is irrelevant to any decision making here as they are in no way involved in the current state of APIs right now for VR compatibility.

Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

Microsoft has the hardware. They got HP, Lenovo, Asus, Acer and Dell producing the hardware, they have the API, DX12, they got Windows Holographic, which is the OS, they got the Store, which is the Windows Store. It's been all over the news that Microsoft is in the VR race, just not doing hardware as they have HoloLens.

Hardware that isn't out yet - that has no support from developers on mass like OpenVR and Oculus have had on PC. The outlook for this being some kind of "threat" is ridiculously low at this point. DX12 is a graphics API, it has nothing to do with VR compatibility
Last edited by Nzyme32; 12-06-2016 at 10:19 PM.
Durante
Come on down to Durante's drivethru PC port fixes. 15 minutes or less. Yelp: ★★★★★

Fixed Souls, Deadly Premonition, Lightning Returns, Umihara Kawase, Symphonia, Little King's Story, PhD, likes mimosas.
(12-06-2016, 10:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

Microsoft has the hardware. They got HP, Lenovo, Asus, Acer and Dell producing the hardware

That hardware is not out, and it won't be out for a while. Its capabilities are unclear. Input is a big question mark.

Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

they have the API, DX12

That's not a VR API.

Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

they got the Store, which is the Windows Store

What VR games and applications can I buy on the Windows Store? What's its VR interface? I can currently get 991 VR games or applications on Steam, and while I can't get a count to display on the Oculus store I can scroll through a whole lot of pages. What will this comparison look like by the time MS actually gets around to selling VR software?

MS' entry is about as timely and well-orchestrated as it was in the smartphone arena.
Kaako
Felium Defensor
(12-06-2016, 10:17 PM)
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Originally Posted by 12Dannu123

It's been confirmed that Windows Holographic (The OS that powers AR and VR) is proprietary, but with some open source components. But lets be honest, Microsoft has the biggest amount of power to swoop in the VR and take it all,

No offense but this is straight up some fantasy-land bullshiiiiiet right here.
Jinkies
Member
(12-06-2016, 10:21 PM)
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Originally Posted by lucebuce12

I applaud them for taking the initiative and certainly hope it works but I can't help shake the feeling that this is going to happen.

You realize xkcd is joking, right? You don't really think all standards are useless or futile, do you?
Last edited by Jinkies; 12-06-2016 at 10:24 PM.
Wallach
Member
(12-06-2016, 10:26 PM)
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Fuck yeah. Khronos is the right group to tackle this.
Easy_D
never left the stone age
(12-06-2016, 11:14 PM)
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Originally Posted by Zalusithix

In the case of PC VR, Valve has been instrumental in getting the tech out there. Even the Rift owes much of its existence to Valve.

Edit:

It'll be a cold day in hell when MS cedes a standards fight before it even tried. =P

Oh I know what they've done for VR, it's just that as a fan of Valve the "videogame making company" it's easy to get salty and forget their contributions to gaming as a whole.

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