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(SPOILERS) About that ONE Gerudo Quest in Breath of the Wild

B

BY2K

Membero Americo
Some journalists have been writing articles for the past few days about that one Gerudo quest in Breath of the Wild where Link has to cross-dress to enter the town and the trans subtext implication it has on the game, from the quest to seek out the man who entered the village and get to clothes to cross-dress Link to the hidden male clothes shop in the city.

http://letsplayvideogames.com/2017/03/the-complexities-of-trans-gerudo-town/

Now that the game is out, and I’ve had time to reflect on this plot thread and my relation to it as a trans woman, I’m left feeling conflicted. On the one hand, this is a AAA video game that canonically has people who were designated male at birth living comfortably within the confines of an all-female city, but equally these characters are repeatedly misgendered as part of the progression path to quest completion. Sure, Link likes being told they are a pretty girl, but Link also reels back in horror when a beard is momentarily exposed from underneath the veil of a woman using female pronouns.

So, let’s dig into the highs and lows of how Breath of the Wild handles its all-female city, starting with the core quest line before expanding into additional info hinting at further gender nonconforming characters.
Click to expand...

http://kotaku.com/despite-nintendos-stumbles-breath-of-the-wilds-fans-ha-1793269690

Here’s the moment: looking for help in the desert, Link seeks to enter Gerudo Town to speak with their ruler. Gerudo Town is off limits to men. Hearing that a man did manage to sneak in, he seeks them out until he finds a woman named Vilia who turns out to be the individual who snuck into the city. They offer to make Link a set of Gerudo clothing and fawn over his new look as Link bashfully wears this new outfit. Link stands in a cropped top and veil, blushing feverishly as Vilia complements his looks. As the wind picks up, it blows Vilia’s veil off to reveal a full beard that Link responds to with visible shock.

This scene relies on tired tropes. Vilia is a fey dandy character, an expression of queerness as weak and wispy. There’s a fetishizing quality at play, a reveling in the chance to objectify Link. Vilia becomes a punchline as her features are revealed. The bearded lady. The freak in the cage.
Click to expand...

For those who have played the game, what's your opinion on this? Was it poorly handled by Nintendo?
 
G

GhostTrick

Banned
I disagree with the analysis. Link doesn't seem surprised for the beard or whatsoever but more to the fact the wind revealed the disguise. Hence why Vilia then claims "make sure you watch out for the wind."
 
Majukun

Majukun

Member
actually i never have considered the guy as a transgender,but more like a guy who wanted to be in the city and it's playing the part of the feminine woman..that's why he (she?) refuses to show you his face even though you are not in the city, and continues to deny even though you says to him that he is clearly a man.

as per the link part, wearing clothing that doesn't reflect the gender you think you have is embarassing for everyone..so i do't see how him being embarassed to dress like a woman has any negative connotations.
 
S

Skittzo0413

Member
I think it's more about Link the character being ignorant to what the player already knows- that it's a guy. This type of thing happens a lot in Zelda games, where Link "acts dumb" for comedic effect even when the player knows something that Link should know.

So it's not like he's recoiling at the sight of the "bearded lady" because he finds it offensive, it's just the Link genuinely thinks it's a typical Hylian woman he's talking to and is surprised to find out it isn't.
 
L

Little Mons†er

Banned
Skittzo0413 said:
I think it's more about Link the character being ignorant to what the player already knows- that it's a guy. This type of thing happens a lot in Zelda games, where Link "acts dumb" for comedic effect even when the player knows something that Link should know.

So it's not like he's recoiling at the sight of the "bearded lady" because he finds it offensive, it's just the Link genuinely thinks it's a typical Hylian woman he's talking to and is surprised to find out it isn't.
Click to expand...

yeah it's more of a 'dramatic irony' sort thing for the player
 
J

jph139

Member
I understand the criticisms, sure. The questline in general isn't something a Western dev would even consider, though outside of Vilia I think it's harmless. We should acknowledge it's something that's emerged from a culture with blindspots for LGBT+ issues.

At first blush I more or less took the game's text at face value and read Vilia as a man disguised as a woman, without reading any trans themes into it, but looking at the dialogue around the character (within the game), she's clearly a person of male sex presenting as female. She likes being called beautiful, dislikes being called a man, and flirts with Link - he's clearly intended to be a transwoman (or, at minimum, a "drag queen" with a female persona... I don't think the average Japanese citizen would differentiate).

With that in mind, Vilia is absolutely a regressive character by Western standards, but again, my impression is that Japan has very little understanding of trans issues. It's out of ignorance rather than malice, so it's a forgiveable sin.

Nintendo's representation of gay/lesbian characters and gender fluidity has been on a good road recently, so I'm willing to cut them a break in this one.
 
Bucket-o-roadkill

Bucket-o-roadkill

Member
Skittzo0413 said:
I think it's more about Link the character being ignorant to what the player already knows- that it's a guy. This type of thing happens a lot in Zelda games, where Link "acts dumb" for comedic effect even when the player knows something that Link should know.
Click to expand...

Exactly, it's a bit of fun, a daft joke and a wink to the player. Looking for anything more in this is a bit silly to be honest.
 
V

Vital Tundra

Member
The fuck? All I got from that seen was a bunch of tongue and cheek. It was a goofy questline through and through. Damn people love to make things out to be what they are not. Let's be happy for he fact the devs were comfortable making link into a "woman". Hell links seems to have enjoyed the idea he was a pretty woman. And when his face was revealed to link it was more of Link being a dumbass per usual.
 
R

Ridley327

Member
Vital Tundra said:
The fuck? All I got from that seen was a bunch of tongue and cheek. It was a goofy questline through and through. Damn people love to make things out to be what they are not. Let's be happy for he fact the devs were comfortable making link into a "woman". Hell links seems to have enjoyed the idea he was a pretty woman. And when his face was revealed to link it was more of Link being a dumbass per usual.
Click to expand...

Yeah, a lot of the Gerudo Town quests are pretty zany and lighthearted. Well, besides the emotional and mental destruction of the Hylian outside of town just because you want boots.

He deserved it for making me go to an area with a silver Lynel.
 
T

Tavernacle12

Member
It could have been handled a little better but give them some credit: you only succeed if you admit they're beautiful for who they are. Calling them a man has them refuse to help you.
 
A

Antiwhippy

the holder of the trombone
The drag queen stereotype for villa was so strong I literally rolled my eyes.

But I get to play as link in fabulous clothes.

So I'll take it.
 
L

Lights and Waves

Member
I thought Link was shoked because he had no idea that the cross-dresser was a man. Link really believed it was a woman, but it ended up being some creepy dude.

His shock wasn't at that fact that it was a man living as a woman. His shock was directed to a man pretending to be a woman to spy on women.
 
C

Complicated

Banned
That kotaku article is well written and mirrors my thoughts on the subject. I haven't seen what happens if you don't choose to be enamored with Vilia though. To be frank, it seems like crossdressing/crossdressers is/are a pretty popular fetish in Japan going by the frequency it shows up as fan service in anime and in their porn outright. I imagine this is approaching from that cultural angle rather than one that is tolerant or intolerant towards trans people, but it could have been handled more carefully for sure.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
She was basically being played, at least in the English localization, as a straight queen. Drag queens like that absolutely exist, I know a few. I thought it was handled fairly well, actually, at no point does the game attempt to make it seem "weird" or "creepy" imo.

Bolson tho, that's straight up Okama nonsense.
 
V

Vital Tundra

Member
Complicated said:
That kotaku article is well written and mirrors my thoughts on the subject. I haven't seen what happens if you don't choose to be enamored with Vilia though. To be frank, it seems like crossdressing/crossdressers is/are a pretty popular fetish in Japan going by the frequency it shows up as fan service in anime and in their porn outright. I imagine this is approaching from that cultural angle rather than one that is tolerant or intolerant towards trans people, but it could have been handled more carefully for sure.
Click to expand...
The quest won't continue if you don't play along as if Link doesn't know. So in reality Link doesn't know and is surprised if anything.
 
R

Ridley327

Member
Lights and Waves said:
I thought Link was shoked because he had no idea that the cross-dresser was a man. Link really believed it was a woman, but it ended up being some creepy dude.

His shock wasn't at that fact that it was a man living as a woman. His shock was directed to a man pretending to be a woman to spy on women.
Click to expand...

I thought Vilia does the cross-dressing just to do business in Gerudo Town? They do have a lot of nice stuff in there.
 
M

mindsale

Member
When I played that sequence, I knew it would become the next Don Corneo moment, but I think Cloud kind of relishes his transvestite moment whereas Link just needs to access the matriarchy.

In BotW, you obtain all clothes at once, and don't sexually mislead anyone in drag. Cloud's way more into it.
 
V

Vital Tundra

Member
Frozenprince said:
She was basically being played, at least in the English localization, as a straight queen. Drag queens like that absolutely exist, I know a few. I thought it was handled fairly well, actually, at no point does the game attempt to make it seem "weird" or "creepy" imo.

Bolson tho, that's straight up Okama nonsense.
Click to expand...
I loved Bolson...
mindsale said:
When I played that sequence, I knew it would become the next Don Corneo moment, but I think Cloud kind of relishes his transvestite moment whereas Link just needs to access the matriarchy.

In BotW, you obtain all clothes at once, and don't sexually mislead anyone in drag. Cloud's way more into it.
Click to expand...
Well the quest available afterwords kinda has launched Link using his fake identity for gain. It's pretty funny as well
 
K

Kain-Nosgoth

Member
the only thing i retain is that link a real dick, and i love it!

Just do the quest where a guy is running outside gerudo city :

the guy trying to hit on you when you're dressed like a girl, and link's ask for his boots! The guy give the special boots to win link's favor.... you finish the quest, then you ask him again...

- give me your boots...
- huh... okay, but i'll have nothing to wear, since i already gave you my other boots
- give them....
- ok sure (i'll never get another chance like that) , do you think after that we could...
- just no way!

what an asshole :p

mindsale said:
In BotW, you obtain all clothes at once, and don't sexually mislead anyone in drag. Cloud's way more into it.
Click to expand...


you kind of missed the quest i put in spoilers i guess
 
C

casey_contra

Member
Frozenprince said:
Bolson tho, that's straight up Okama nonsense.
Click to expand...

I think Bolson is great. I love how you meet Hudson and hear about "the boss." "The boss" construction worker has been in Zelda games before and is usually a very overly masculine, buff man. That was my expectation and I thought it was awesome that, in this case, "the boss" was a flamboyant, effeminate dude with a pink bandana and earring.

Yes, gays (although it's not explicitly stated he is, of course) can be in construction and in positions of power - and genuinely respected by their underlings. Bolson isn't a joke to anyone in the game.

Idk, it just made me check my expectations.

Gay man here, just wanted to identify that I'm speaking through that lens.
 
T

TDonk

Member
Terrible articles trying to find controversy where it doesn't exist.

It's pretty clear the shock stems from the very convincing woman unexpectedly being revealed as a man.

Nothing more.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
Lights and Waves said:
I thought Link was shoked because he had no idea that the cross-dresser was a man. Link really believed it was a woman, but it ended up being some creepy dude.

His shock wasn't at that fact that it was a man living as a woman. His shock was directed to a man pretending to be a woman to spy on women.
Click to expand...

This I think is definitely the angle that Nintendo were going for, but that gets harder to read in a western context that is - thankfully, it must be said - increasingly considerate of trans issues. It's not impossible to see how it could be construed to come out the way it has though.
 
D

duckroll

Member
My opinion is that Japan in general has difficulty in fully understanding transgender and homosexuality as topics and how they are expressed is often seen as crass by those with more familiarity with the subject. At the same time though, there is a level of acceptance that these people do expect and they do struggle with identity and how the world sees them. Acknowledging this alone in mainstream entertainment is pretty significant especially for entertaining that is designed to be consumed by children. Exaggerated and comical presentation of transgender and homosexuals (especially male homosexuals) is not ideal, but it is often approached not with malice or mockery, but as an oversimplified way of showing the audience that there are people who you might find weird out there, but they mean no harm and can be helpful people like you and me. It's an awkward half measure, but I appreciate that there is a positive measure to begin with, even if it is imperfect.

It could be better, but it's not something I want to rush to condemn. Having a conversation is good though, because it also lets the creators know what people are thinking and feeling, and that informs how they grow as writers and how they approach the subject the next time.
 
I

Inferno313

Banned
TDonk said:
Terrible articles trying to find controversy where it doesn't exist.

It's pretty clear the shock stems from the very convincing woman unexpectedly being revealed as a man.

Nothing more.
Click to expand...

Conciliator said:
the real controversy is why can't i upgrade my pretty lady clothes
Click to expand...

Analysis of how a game handles a touchy subject =/= " trying to find controversy"

Fuck's sake, some of you guys would lose your goddamn shit in a 101 Media Studies course.
 
R

Realyn

Member
I remember when I would just play FFVII, laugh at Cloud getting into some kinky shit and didn't have to read

Also, trans girl Link who discovers her identity as a result of having to dress as a woman on this quest, buys additional clothing in town, and then runs off to save the world in female Gerudo garb that she wears for the entire rest of the game is a piece of female Link headcanon I can totally get behind.
Click to expand...

Jeez christ.
 
C

casey_contra

Member
duckroll said:
My opinion is that Japan in general has difficulty in fully understanding transgender and homosexuality as topics and how they are expressed is often seen as crass by those with more familiarity with the subject. At the same time though, there is a level of acceptance that these people do expect and they do struggle with identity and how the world sees them. Acknowledging this alone in mainstream entertainment is pretty significant especially for entertaining that is designed to be consumed by children. Exaggerated and comical presentation of transgender and homosexuals (especially male homosexuals) is not ideal, but it is often approached not with malice or mockery, but as an oversimplified way of showing the audience that there are people who you might find weird out there, but they mean no harm and can be helpful people like you and me. It's an awkward half measure, but I appreciate that there is a positive measure to begin with, even if it is imperfect.

It could be better, but it's not something I want to rush to condemn. Having a conversation is good though, because it also lets the creators know what people are thinking and feeling, and that informs how they grow as writers and how they approach the subject the next time.
Click to expand...

I think this is better than both of those blog posts... but I completely agree that the fact this is a conversation is a good thing.
 
K

Krooner

Member
Both this scene and the builder chap have that "Japanese" gayness..

Ultimately, it's an art form born in another culture, surely shouldn't we respect that culture even if it isn't quite as politically correct as we're used to? Yes it's gauche, but I don't feel the need to be offended about it. That said, I'm not gay or trans so...

The sexualisation of the Gerudo princess felt a bit close to the bone too. Teddies in her bedroom, she mentioned she was; "just a child" multiple times, yet everytime there was a POV shot of her it panned the full length of her body... JAPAN!
 
C

casey_contra

Member
Krooner said:
Both this scene and the builder chap have that "Japanese" gayness..

Ultimately, it's an art form born in another culture, surely shouldn't we respect that culture even if it isn't quite as politically correct as we're used to? Yes it's gauche, but I don't feel the need to be offended about it. That said, I'm not gay or trans so...
Click to expand...

get-out.gif



jk. Though I feel that is the attitude you may encounter from some folks, but your opinion on these matters is valued!
 
T

theaface

Member
When I read the title I thought it referred to the stealth section.

As for the cross-dressing section, I just read it as a bit of goofy fun. I'm more annoyed that you still have to put the outfit on after you've cleared that area's divine beast - you think that would've bought you freedom of the city?!
 
G

Griss

Member
theaface said:
When I read the title I thought it referred to the stealth section.

As for the cross-dressing section, I just read it as a bit of goofy fun. I'm more annoyed that you still have to put the outfit on after you've cleared that area's divine beast - you think that would've bought you freedom of the city?!
Click to expand...

Honestly I feel like it's for Link's protection more than anything... he'd be jumped by 50 thirsty 8ft women if he wasn't undercover.
 
J

Jazzem

Member
I generally dislike forced cross dressing 'comedy' scenes as it can be mean spirited on multiple levels (I'm not particularly keen on the FFVII one). I'm at least glad it didn't go into some directions it could have here, in particular I like that the NPCs who figure out Link's gender don't make a big deal of it, often still being respectful to him. I still find it weird they went ahead with it for Zelda, though I suppose it was inevitable given Link being typically androgynous and Gerudo town being female only.

theaface said:
I'm more annoyed that you still have to put the outfit on after you've cleared that area's divine beast - you think that would've bought you freedom of the city?!
Click to expand...

Ha yes, especially after doing all the side quests where it feels like at least half the town knows your secret.
 
G

GurgleBot20

Member
TDonk said:
Terrible articles trying to find controversy where it doesn't exist.

It's pretty clear the shock stems from the very convincing woman unexpectedly being revealed as a man.

Nothing more.
Click to expand...

They're two trans writers talking about a moment that has relevance to trans issues, and I think they're pretty levelheaded about it.

I'm not sure what the issue is.
 
J

JonnyDBrit

Member
duckroll said:
My opinion is that Japan in general has difficulty in fully understanding transgender and homosexuality as topics and how they are expressed is often seen as crass by those with more familiarity with the subject. At the same time though, there is a level of acceptance that these people do expect and they do struggle with identity and how the world sees them. Acknowledging this alone in mainstream entertainment is pretty significant especially for entertaining that is designed to be consumed by children. Exaggerated and comical presentation of transgender and homosexuals (especially male homosexuals) is not ideal, but it is often approached not with malice or mockery, but as an oversimplified way of showing the audience that there are people who you might find weird out there, but they mean no harm and can be helpful people like you and me. It's an awkward half measure, but I appreciate that there is a positive measure to begin with, even if it is imperfect.

It could be better, but it's not something I want to rush to condemn. Having a conversation is good though, because it also lets the creators know what people are thinking and feeling, and that informs how they grow as writers and how they approach the subject the next time.
Click to expand...

Pretty much. Vilia is ultimately, based on what I can find, a helpful and positive character who just wants to be part of the society around them. In contrast to a character like Tingle who is openly portrayed as comically pitiable and creepy, or a character like Ghirahim whose effeminate features and behaviour evoke a common trope of Japanese villains, there's nothing wrong with Vilia beyond the contention of what they 'really' are. Yeah, it could be better, but also in the context of what's come before, it's a step up as well.
 
mindatlarge

mindatlarge

Member
It's all about context and the back story. Looking at why this character is dressing up as a woman to disguise himself. I don't see anything done in malice and I've played through the scene.
 
S

sgjackson

Member
I was actually really confused when I got this quest because I thought the endgame was going to be the depressed tailor in the bazaar making the clothes for you. Having someone charge you for an outfit that just happens to fit makes way less sense than having an outfit made for you. It doesn't really solve the trans representation problem in a meaningful way, but I think it's a better solution than what's there.

Anyway: The moment with the breeze and the reveal of the beard was (putting it generously) tacky and I can totally see how people read Vilia as trans and that everyone was misgendering her. It's a pretty significant mark against a game I'd otherwise call nearly perfect.
 
R

RichiRamjag

Member
Majukun said:
actually i never have considered the guy as a transgender,but more like a guy who wanted to be in the city and it's playing the part of the feminine woman..that's why he (she?) refuses to show you his face even though you are not in the city, and continues to deny even though you says to him that he is clearly a man.

as per the link part, wearing clothing that doesn't reflect the gender you think you have is embarassing for everyone..so i do't see how him being embarassed to dress like a woman has any negative connotations.
Click to expand...

This was my impression as well.
 
B

Bakercat

Member
I personally didn't see anything wrong with the scene at all, and this comes from a male that likes to wear dresses.
 
J

Justified

Member
GurgleBot20 said:
They're two trans writers talking about a moment that has relevance to trans issues, and I think they're pretty levelheaded about it.

I'm not sure what the issue is.
Click to expand...

Because the 2 characters in the instance are more relatable to the Cross-dressing community than the Trans community
 
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