• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

N'Gai Croal and I played Manhunt 2 for six hours Friday, debated it

S

stephentotilo

Behind The Games
Hey guys,

I wanted to get something on your radar, since you've mostly been exposed mostly to very different types of discussions about violent video games than the one linked here.

If you check out my blog and N'Gai Croal of Newsweek's you'll see that we've been co-publishing a series this week about our Friday afternoon marathon session playing "Manhunt 2" and Rockstar's NY headquarters.

The second round of the exchange went live today. And in it, I describe the wildest moment we played.

We also spend a lot of time discussing the nature of violence in games and the extent to which we think gamers and non-gamers should or shouldn't be disturbed about it.

-Stephen



http://www.multiplayerblog.com/2007/06/vs-mode-newsweek-and-mtv-news-play-and_26.html

This is the stand-out moment I'm referring to. It's a SPOILER, of course, which I note in the entry as well:

BEGIN SPOILER
"I was in control of protagonist Daniel Lamb in the last full level we played. I walked him down a staircase with a pistol in hand. The game gave me a cue, instructing me how to kill the man at the end of the hallway ahead of me with a stealth pistol kill. What struck me was that he wasn’t looking my way. He was half-turned away from me, watching something through an open doorway. Whatever he was watching sounded like a couple making love. Taking advantage of his distraction, I followed orders and killed him.

"Then I walked through the doorway expecting to see a TV playing a dirty movie. Instead the camera angle switched, and the TV you and I were watching was filled with a movie screen showing a pornographic movie – a watered down one, that is, with a virtual man and a woman hot and sweaty but revealing none of their most private parts. Daniel Lamb was standing right in front of it, fully armed. Then I walked a couple of steps and the camera angle changed (players don’t control the angles in "Manhunt 2," which is a change from the first game). Now the movie screen was to his back. I couldn’t see it. I could just hear it. The love-making continued. I looked out at the rows of empty seats. I was in a movie theater. A group of hit-men rushed in. Suddenly I was in a tough firefight. The whole time the guns were blazing, those sounds kept on playing. Do you think that scene was crafted to say something about sex and violence, by any chance? After I took out each of the hitmen, they lay there and the movie kept on playing. I could hear the rattle of the film projector and see the dusty beam of light it projected over Daniel’s head and onto the screen. I looked over to you and to the Rockstar employee who had walked in to see what we were laughing about and said "I’m going to put an end to this smut." I pointed my Wii remote at the film projector and fired. The sound from the movie warbled. The room went dark and quiet. That was quite a moment – and one that I think is worth grown-up gamers experiencing."
END SPOILER
 
G

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
snack said:
Is that the worst part of the game you played?
Click to expand...

I think he's saying it was a stand-out moment in the game, not the most violent or the most "AO-worthy" one. Just one that struck him.
 
R

Razoric

Banned
bo bo bo our fragile adult minds cant handle content such as this!!! I am so glad this filth is banned!!

*goes to walmart to buy Saw 1-3 and Hostel*
 
peetfeet

peetfeet

Member
I pray to god that your housemates/wives have hidden away all sharp objects from your house, lest you go on a killing rampage....
 
S

stephentotilo

Behind The Games
N'Gai's dreadlocks are on a plane to L.A. right now, so you're stuck with me.

It's not the most violent moment we played (I describe a few more vivid ones than that in the exchange), but it's the one that was the most arresting -- and the only one that made me think of Hot Coffee.

I assume the game wasn't rated AO for that scene but for the gruesome killing you perpetrate throughout the game. But I can't say for sure.
 
W

w0s

Member
I still don't see how the godfather didn't get an AO rating when you strangle people with the wiimote. Just like I expect was a good reason this got one.
 
B

beelzebozo

Jealous Bastard
i know you're focusing mostly on what makes the game interesting from a controversy/social commentary standpoint, but i wouldn't mind having a few words from you about how well the wii controls function.
 
A

AdmiralViscen

Banned
w0s said:
I still don't see how the godfather didn't get an AO rating when you strangle people with the wiimote. Just like I expect was a good reason this got one.
Click to expand...

THIS HAS JACK SHIT TO DO WITH THE WIIMOTE.

-PS2 version got AO too
-ESRB watches videos, they don't play games
 
B

buckfutter

Member
I remember that, even though I ultimately thought Manhunt was a pretty shitty game, it did give me a similar sort of "Oh my God" moment. It was in the zoo or car yard level, and I was wielding a long, blunt object, sneaking around in the dark near the entrance to some underground tunnel. Some freak was mumbling various obscenities just past the way, and as I was sneaking up on him he turned around, screamed bloody murder and rushed me. A few blows were exchanged with him spouting various horrible remarks before he realized he was losing the fight, at which point he took off down the tunnel to get help. I chased after him and knocked him to the ground, and took a finishing swing. Just before it connected and put his lights out for good, he managed to to get out a plaintive cry of "No, please!" or something to that effect. It just struck me all of a sudden, really quite hard (no pun intended), and I realised that maybe they were making a concerted effort at a statement, and not just pure exploitation.

Unfortunately, burying the business end of a hammer into countless enemy crotches completely killed any impact the game could've had on me.
 
S

stephentotilo

Behind The Games
The Wii Controls are well programmed! (was going to say well-executed!)

I was going to cut and paste what I wrote to N'Gai for the next round of the exchange, but upon second glance I'm reminded that I wrote it late last night when I was too tired to make complete sense. I'm going to have to edit it.

I assume you guys are asking if the Wii execution gestures work. They do. They work well. You sneak up behind someone and get a cue to go in for the kill. You lock onto your target as you would in the original game. Then you press a button (A? I can't remember) and the execution begins, playing out in one of three styles, depending on how long you waited to pounce. The longer you wait the more brutal the kill.

Once you start the execution, the Wii version starts showing you a cinematic perspective of the kill, but also requires you to follow on-screen icons that call for a sequence of gestures. The gestures are often quite similar to what the character is doing (If he's stabbing some poor guy's hand into a chair, well then you're stabbing the remote downward). If you mess up the gestures the kill is interrupted and the victim fights back.

My understanding is that the PS2 version, like the XBox and PS2 versions of the first game, don't force you to do anything but watch once you trigger the killing sequence. The Wii requires that you put your body into it.

Not once did I fail to have the remote recognize my gestures (I didn't try to trick it, so it could have been programmed in a more forgiving way than you'd want -- not sure). The killing animation slows down to give you time for the gesture, then picks back up to normal speed once your part in it is done.

Hope that helps! Gotta go write something now (That's not about Manhunt 2!)...
 
V

Visualante

Member
AdmiralViscen said:
THIS HAS JACK SHIT TO DO WITH THE WIIMOTE.

-PS2 version got AO too
-ESRB watches videos, they don't play games
Click to expand...
I strongly disagree. They could have been so influenced by the Wii version that they didn't want to be seen as having double standards (in the eyes of the people) with the PS2 version.

Irrespective of whether they watch videos or play the game I have no doubt they are aware of the control scheme and how it functions. They'd have to be under rocks not to.
 
O

OliveJuice

Member
stephentotilo said:
The Wii Controls are well programmed! (was going to say well-executed!)

I was going to cut and paste what I wrote to N'Gai for the next round of the exchange, but upon second glance I'm reminded that I wrote it late last night when I was too tired to make complete sense. I'm going to have to edit it.

I assume you guys are asking if the Wii execution gestures work. They do. They work well. You sneak up behind someone and get a cue to go in for the kill. You lock onto your target as you would in the original game. Then you press a button (A? I can't remember) and the execution begins, playing out in one of three styles, depending on how long you waited to pounce. The longer you wait the more brutal the kill.

Once you start the execution, the Wii version starts showing you a cinematic perspective of the kill, but also requires you to follow on-screen icons that call for a sequence of gestures. The gestures are often quite similar to what the character is doing (If he's stabbing some poor guy's hand into a chair, well then you're stabbing the remote downward). If you mess up the gestures the kill is interrupted and the victim fights back.

My understanding is that the PS2 version, like the XBox and PS2 versions of the first game, don't force you to do anything but watch once you trigger the killing sequence. The Wii requires that you put your body into it.

Not once did I fail to have the remote recognize my gestures (I didn't try to trick it, so it could have been programmed in a more forgiving way than you'd want -- not sure). The killing animation slows down to give you time for the gesture, then picks back up to normal speed once your part in it is done.

Hope that helps! Gotta go write something now (That's not about Manhunt 2!)...
Click to expand...
Sounds good. I guess developers are getting better at programming gestures now.
 
D

D2M15

DAFFY DEUS EGGS
buckfutter said:
maybe they were making a concerted effort at a statement, and not just pure exploitation.
Click to expand...

I don't mean this as an attack (man, these Manhunt puns just write themselves), but did you not consider that the exploitation was a statement in itself? Not least in who was being exploited.

I think Manhunt's the only game I enjoyed so much that I never want to play it again.
 
L

LiveFromKyoto

Member
If I can add something more salient to the discussion than my previous comment...

The censorship debate seems to revolve around the worry that as games involve the direct control of the characters, there's an intimacy to the actions that film and novels - passive media - lack, where the actions are carried out by a third party rather than an avatar.

At its most childish this debate centres on the notion that virtually carrying out these acts are a catalyst - a proximate or even direct cause - for repeating them in real life. I don't believe any worthwhile psychologist would find something so superficial to be an instigation for murder.

But at the same time, if I'm completely honest there's something that doesn't sit right with me about the Manhunt games. Games are a release, an escape. As you pointed out they revolve around repetitve actions; in basketball it's the brief serotonin pop that comes from a basket, in gaming it's the continual mental-massage that a pleasurable mechanic provides.

Which makes me ask, "why this? Why are people finding suffocating someone with a plastic bag satisfying?" It goes beyond simple goal-achivement reductivism; it has to. People could have chosen any vehicle to produce these feelings, there's no shortage of great games out there.

People will defend content like this by saying you can walk into any bookstore and buy American Psycho and A Clockwork Orange. But as has been pointed out here, neither of those are an endless series of cathartic gruesome murder scenes. Whatever other decorations surround the mechanics of Manhunt, this is you sitting down and enacting a snuff film for hours in a row; it isn't a few scenes of ultraviolence that add punch to what is otherwise a social commentary.

Now here's the crux of the argument - throwing away the notion that Manhunt will cause people to go out and do these things - is this socially harmful? Does it makes these actions less taboo, does it in some way justify snuff as legitimate entertainment? Nobody's really dying here, so perhaps the snuff comparison isn't entirely valid, but the catharsis-trigger isn't so different.

I don't feel society will crumble if things like this are available. But at the same time, on purely a gut-level, it doesn't sit well with me. I felt very uncomfortable playing the first game; whatever its design merits it was sitting there saying to me "look at how brutally you killed that person, wasn't that ****ing awesome?" If we want to talk about art, art exist as a cultural and notional delivery-system. If our culture accepts - and derives pleasure from - the depiction and virtual participation in these acts, what are we?

Yes, they're not being carried out in real life, only on a tv and in the mind.

But as a very wise man once said, "all is mind."
 
S

speculawyer

Member
They should change it from a sex movie to a violence movie so there is virtual going on with projected virtual violence simultaneously. The sound would be confusing.
 
D

D2M15

DAFFY DEUS EGGS
LiveFromKyoto said:
I felt very uncomfortable playing the first game; whatever its design merits it was sitting there saying to me "look at how brutally you killed that person, wasn't that ****ing awesome?"
Click to expand...

At the risk of getting drawn back into a Manhunt debate, to me the difference between Manhunt and Gears of War is that one says "look at how brutally you killed that person, wasn't that ****ing awesome?" and you pump your fist and whoop HELL YEAH MOTHER****ERS, and the other makes you feel very uncomfortable.

And if I was going to get alarmed by such things, I'd be more worried by Gears.
 
B

buckfutter

Member
D2M15 said:
At the risk of getting drawn back into a Manhunt debate, to me the difference between Manhunt and Gears of War is that one says "look at how brutally you killed that person, wasn't that ****ing awesome?" and you pump your fist and whoop HELL YEAH MOTHER****ERS, and the other makes you feel very uncomfortable.

And if I was going to get alarmed by such things, I'd be more worried by Gears.
Click to expand...
See, now, that's why I initially liked Manhunt. It seemed to be doing everything in its power to make the act itself uncomfortable and grotesque. But that begins to fall apart when you realise that you have to keep doing it, over and over again, to progress through the story - and you are rewarded for carrying out the more brutal kills. It's a dichotomy. That was pretty bad, killing that guy by jamming a piece of glass in his neck, huh? Now do it again. Fifty times.

I guess it could be saying something about the repetition, desensitization towards and essentially mundane nature of violent images in videogames and film, but I don't think I could give them enough credit to have actually designed a game where you win by turning it off and never playing it again. I give Rockstar a lot of credit for being one of the more artistically advanced developers out there, but not that much.
 
L

LiveFromKyoto

Member
D2M15 said:
At the risk of getting drawn back into a Manhunt debate, to me the difference between Manhunt and Gears of War is that one says "look at how brutally you killed that person, wasn't that ****ing awesome?" and you pump your fist and whoop HELL YEAH MOTHER****ERS, and the other makes you feel very uncomfortable.

And if I was going to get alarmed by such things, I'd be more worried by Gears.
Click to expand...

That's a totally valid point. To me there's a fundamental difference in that Gears takes place in what is more obviously a fantasy environment removed from reality, the enemies aren't human, and seems to couch the killing in terms of a defensive war, and a heroic defence of the innocent.

Manhunt portrays the protagonist as a victim of evil as well, but there's a difference in that it revolves around the dramatic - and cinematic - glorifcation of the actual act of murder. The kills are seen through the eyes of the sick bastard who's forcing the protagonist to do all this, and in the moment the Cine-Kills happen, the game makes that voyeur us. And those moments are obviously presented for our pleasure.

But you're right in that both games rely on a visceral reaction to repeated carnage. And it's difficult to articulate the difference between Gears' chainsaw and Manhunt's killing any more than I just just did, except as to how the games present them as a matter of focus and degree. I'm not on a "ban Manhunt" crusade here, but to me - again, simply on a gut level - Manhunt felt different to me, like it was trying to tap into something very dark and very twisted in the human unconsciousness. Gears felt like a really gory football game.
 
S

Shawn128

Member
I'm still not entirely sure what the AO rating is for.

Is it for the content? Then surely an M rating would have been fine. The definition of an M rated game is analogous to an R rating for a movie.

Is it for the gestural content? I then ask would simply removing the gestural programming make the ESRB happy? To me, that doesn't make the game any better. See, it wasn't just the Wii version that got the AO rating, so I'm not entirely sure its the gestural content that got it the AO rating.

I wish there was a way for us or the consumer to speak directly with the ESRB on how we felt about it. At the very least, content descriptions and ratings must be rewritten in this new age of gestural gaming.

Why shouldn't developers be allowed to push the envelope? While the video game industry is separate from the movie industry, the movie industry celebrates movies that are different and test the audience. And for the record....N'Gai and Steven make this game seem incredibly visceral. I'm afraid I'll never get to see the game the way it was meant to be played :(
 
S

Sirusjr

Banned
The difference between manhunt and gears is like the difference between saw and murder set pieces or guinea pig. Saw, Hostel, Grindhouse, Dead Alive, all Hollywood movies that include some form of torture or extreme gore but expect the viewer to be excited by the viewing and very rarely do you leave the theater feeling dirty.

Movies like Murder Set Pieces or Guinea Pig though are quite different. Most of these small budget gore movies almost feel like you are watching a snuff film. The producer of Murder Set Pieces compares it to the cinematic equivalent of being raped. That movie was super disturbing so much that I couldn't even sit through more than half of it because I was not enjoying it at all.

I would hope that manhunt 2 manages to keep the experience somewhere on the edge between those two styles of movies with its plot. It seems that what really sets the two types apart is that the hollywood movies have at least some semblance of a plot, no matter how simple, to put things in perspective.
 
F

Flynn

Member
Thanks for posting that description.

The thing that rarely comes across in stories about Rockstar is the way they create so many complex, imaginative and one-of-a-kind moments in their better games.
 
D

dfi

Member
The gestures seem similar to the wii version of prince of persia when you do the speed kills. I thought that was implemented pretty well and felt fun and immersive.

Manhunt 2 seems to expand on that greatly because in POP, the only gesture you do is swiping down whereas in manhunt 2, you do a variety of gestures.

POP also slows down when you start the speed kill.


stephentotilo said:
The Wii Controls are well programmed! (was going to say well-executed!)

I was going to cut and paste what I wrote to N'Gai for the next round of the exchange, but upon second glance I'm reminded that I wrote it late last night when I was too tired to make complete sense. I'm going to have to edit it.

I assume you guys are asking if the Wii execution gestures work. They do. They work well. You sneak up behind someone and get a cue to go in for the kill. You lock onto your target as you would in the original game. Then you press a button (A? I can't remember) and the execution begins, playing out in one of three styles, depending on how long you waited to pounce. The longer you wait the more brutal the kill.

Once you start the execution, the Wii version starts showing you a cinematic perspective of the kill, but also requires you to follow on-screen icons that call for a sequence of gestures. The gestures are often quite similar to what the character is doing (If he's stabbing some poor guy's hand into a chair, well then you're stabbing the remote downward). If you mess up the gestures the kill is interrupted and the victim fights back.

My understanding is that the PS2 version, like the XBox and PS2 versions of the first game, don't force you to do anything but watch once you trigger the killing sequence. The Wii requires that you put your body into it.

Not once did I fail to have the remote recognize my gestures (I didn't try to trick it, so it could have been programmed in a more forgiving way than you'd want -- not sure). The killing animation slows down to give you time for the gesture, then picks back up to normal speed once your part in it is done.

Hope that helps! Gotta go write something now (That's not about Manhunt 2!)...
Click to expand...
 
Meesh

Meesh

Member
What I find interesting, is how T2 throws the player into the surreal and chaotic with sex and strong violence.

The most prevallent aspects to a dream are often just that, sex and violence. Manhunt sounds like it's unfolding in Daniel Lambs head as a dream, and pulling us along for the ride... maybe recreating some of our own dreams???

I just found the undenialbe link between sex and violence in the game fascinating...ever notice many of KMFDMs album covers contain undertones of sex and violence? I always thought they were depicting dreams.
 
J

jonezer4

Member
buckfutter said:
Just before it connected and put his lights out for good, he managed to to get out a plaintive cry of "No, please!" or something to that effect. It just struck me all of a sudden, really quite hard (no pun intended), and I realised that maybe they were making a concerted effort at a statement, and not just pure exploitation.
Click to expand...

It's definitely psychologically taxing, in that it's humanizing the enemies. So often we play games with generic bad guys that either shoot you or you shoot them. They rarely have personal qualities, although they are obviously depicted as humans, and it makes it easy to kill them and move on.

The second you start to make bad guys that feel real, that beg for their lives and actually act like human beings, it makes a completely different, unique experience, and I think it reveals a sadistic side to many people that scares them, or at the very least, forces them to look a little deeper inside themselves than they're willing to. I think ultimately that played a large part in Manhunt 2 getting an AO.

That and pinching people's nuts off.
 
S

Segata Sanshiro

Member
Haunted One said:
Did you just compare Shakespeare to Manhunt 2?
Click to expand...
Actually, I just called Shakespeare "pop culture trash". Wanna fight about it? I'll warn you, I'm armed with the Yale Complete Works of Shakespeare. It's really heavy.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
Segata Sanshiro said:
Actually, I just called Shakespeare "pop culture trash". Wanna fight about it? I'll warn you, I'm armed with the Yale Complete Works of Shakespeare. It's really heavy.
Click to expand...
'pop culture trash' I have no problem with, but comparing it to Manhunt 2... man.
 
S

Segata Sanshiro

Member
Haunted One said:
'pop culture trash' I have no problem with, but comparing it to Manhunt 2... man.
Click to expand...
Oh, don't worry, I'm only comparing them in so much as they both belong to the subset "pop culture trash", and perhaps also in the subset "pop culture trash that is overly pseudo-intellectually analyzed". They are no more alike than alligators and bunnies are for both being in the subset "animals that trouble me greatly".
 
A

Amused_To_Death

Member
Great read and thanks to both you for such an informative and intelligent exchange!

The problem here is that you're both preaching to the choir...BBFC, ESRB and consoles makers have to consider populations outside the gaming community, "their reactions, and interactions!" :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Manhunt - Rockstar's grimy, daring and macabre masterpiece
24
2K
Chuck Berry replied
  • Poll
11 (non technical) design flaws with Helldivers 2...
47
2K
Dacvak replied
GAF, would you help me redesigning my gaming habits?
Opinion
18
735
Jaybe replied
GQ played 8 hours of Starfield and interview with Todd Howard (Bonus TES6 questions)
21
2K
Chukhopops replied
[IndieWire] As Francis Ford Coppola Seeks ‘Megalopolis’ Distribution, ‘Everything Is on the Table’
10
1K
Mr1999 replied
Top Bottom