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Ebert (once again) reiterates his position on games.

C

Campster

Do you like my tight white sweater? STOP STARING
Read the article here. A small sample:

Ebert said:
A year or so ago, I rashly wrote that video games could not be art. That inspired a firestorm among gamers, who wrote me countless messages explaining why I was wrong, and urging me to play their favorite games. Of course, I was asking for it. Anything can be art. Even a can of Campbell's soup. What I should have said is that games could not be high art, as I understand it.

How do I know this? How many games have I played? I know it by the definition of the vast majority of games. They tend to involve (1) point and shoot in many variations and plotlines, (2) treasure or scavenger hunts, as in "Myst," and (3) player control of the outcome. I don't think these attributes have much to do with art; they have more in common with sports.
Click to expand...

I'm still torn on this issue. On one hand, what should we care that a critic from another medium (who admits his ignorance regarding ours) derides us as not high art? On the other, this is exactly the sort of thing we have to sort of rail against constantly, lest the echo chamber get loud enough that we risk de facto cultural irrelevance. If the first response to any sort of serious analysis of games is "Why, they're just games?" then we're in serious trouble as a medium. We've made great strides in recent years (especially among gamers themselves) but we still need to work on gaining the acceptance of the population of the world at large.
 
C

Christine

Member
Sounds more like Ebert back-pedals to a softer position on Games as Art.

"Ok, games can be Art, but not high Art as I understand it."

What he doesn't get is that #3 is where the artistic expression of gameplay as art comes into play. Yes, outcomes are in part determined by the player. The art is in how the limits of the player's freedom are communicated to him by the design of the gameplay.
 
D

Deleted member 20415

Unconfirmed Member
Honestly, who listens to this schlub anymore. He's an artifact, and just the mere notion that he can't view games outside of this bizarre "high" art filter he's created is reason enough to ignore not only what he has to say about games, but what he has to say about movies.
Done and done.

/Thread closed.
 
B

beelzebozo

Jealous Bastard
he's wrong. games often involve no control of the outcome whatsoever--they just require the player to perform a set of actions that will trigger the preset outcome, which ultimately deflates his argument. he's still dealing in that fictional world where people think you can "do anything" in games, and that's a buncha shit.
 
J

JzeroT1437

Member
Art isn't meant to be a game. Games shouldn't be interpreted as art.

Reminds me of those super-realistic mario paintings.
 
S

Segata Sanshiro

Member
I still say it's pretty sad that someone who helped fight the good fight for cinema being recognized as high art so easily derides another infant medium.
 
B

besada

Banned
Ebert's an idiot. It's simple. Art is the expression of human creativity. People who try to create categories of art and non-art are people with an agenda, and they shouldn't be trusted. Whether that agenda is protecting a medium they love to the exclusion of others (Ebert) or driving up prices by creating a gulf between the cognoscenti and the hoi-polloi (fine art industry), people who try to convince you that things aren't art are inherently dishonest.
 
W

watership

Member
ForzaItalia said:
Why really care about acceptance? Just enjoy the games...
Click to expand...

Thank you! Just like what you like, stop looking for ways to make others love what you like. Thinking like that leading to Nintendo slowly turning into a casual game nightmare.
 
Chiggs

Chiggs

Gold Member
Alts said:
Sounds about right
Click to expand...


Yep. Seriously, even at film's infancy, there was more depth. Video games have soooooooo much growing up to do. And considering how juvenile a lot of developers and gamers are, it's going to be a long time.
 
D

Dante

Member
Eh what's he supposed to say, I mean imagine you've been working in an entertainment industry for years then this up and coming media starts becoming more popular then the medium your in. Of course he's gonna try and brush it aside.........I think he's wrong though.
 
H

HugBasket

Banned
This is coming from the guy who said the movie Undead sucked.

From what I understand, he doesn't believe gameplay is an art.
 
J

Justin Bailey

------ ------
Art is defined as something that can touch you on a special level, like my pee pee.

Look, I don't care if this guy thinks games are not art. I think the fact that he has to argue whether they are art or not sort of defeats his argument in the first place, but whatever.
 
J

jetpacks was yes

Member
Ebert said:
What I should have said is that games could not be high art, as I understand it.
Click to expand...

ch930720.gif
 
C

Campster

Do you like my tight white sweater? STOP STARING
disappeared said:
You can't fault the guy for his opinion. He doesn't think games are art. So what?
Click to expand...

There's nothing wrong with a personal belief about the artistic validity of a medium. But Ebert holds a certain position of power, and I think it's an abuse of that power for him to declare something so profound about a medium he knows next to nothing about.
 
E

ElectricBlue187

Member
ebert said:
(1) point and shoot in many variations and plotlines, (2) treasure or scavenger hunts, as in "Myst," and (3) player control of the outcome. I don't think these attributes have much to do with art; they have more in common with sports.
Click to expand...

you heard it folks, all games are either FPS, Adventure, or uh player controls the outcome (RPG?)...the last one is so vague it could be applied to Mass Effect as easily as Super Mario Bros (do I want to jump in this neverending pit or not?)
 
L

linsivvi

Member
Milan Kundera condemned Rock music as noise in one of his classic novels.

Even grandmaster of one art form can be an ignorant fool of another art form, let alone a mere critic, and I think he's way over-rated as a critic anyway.
 
T

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
beelzebozo said:
didn't vincent gallo publicly call ebert a fat ass? that's funny.
now he's the critic formerly known as fat ass
Click to expand...

If I recall correctly he placed a pox upon his colon or some sort.
 
H

HomerSimpson-Man

Member
It's just videogames and I'm not going to get a stick up my ass over it.

Games have a f'n long way to go before I would really consider them in the same realm as art let alone "high art."

Just enjoy them people and not be annoyed an almost pointless hobby gets so much attention.
 
M

MickeyKnox

Member
Campster said:
There's nothing wrong with a personal belief about the artistic validity of a medium. But Ebert holds a certain position of power, and I think it's an abuse of that power for him to declare something so profound about a medium he knows next to nothing about.
Click to expand...
Mostly/kinda/not really.
 
F

Flo_Evans

Member
I sort of agree. The few games that come close aren't very good games. They are more like interactive installations.

Is the game of chess art? NO, but the chessboard may be a piece of art. Games are a set of rules, there is art present in them but as a whole I don't think you can call a game art.
 
C

Campster

Do you like my tight white sweater? STOP STARING
ElectricBlue187 said:
you heard it folks, all games are either FPS, Adventure, or uh player controls the outcome (RPG?)...the last one is so vague it could be applied to Mass Effect as easily as Super Mario Bros (do I want to jump in this neverending pit or not?)
Click to expand...

The problem, really, lies with the last statement. Plenty of movies are about shooting things, let's not forget. But in saying that a player-controlled outcome means that the work is devoid of artistic merit is to discredit the very strength of our medium. Games can't be art simply because they're games.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Dante said:
Eh what's he supposed to say, I mean imagine you've been working in an entertainment industry for years then this up and coming media starts becoming more popular then the medium your in. Of course he's gonna try and brush it aside.........I think he's wrong though.
Click to expand...
And the most recent example he can come up with is Myst. I'm actually a fan of most of Ebert's work (and am deeply sympathetic to his current physical ailments), but I couldn't disagree with him more on this topic. Also:

Barker: "I'm not doing an evangelical job here. I'm just saying that gaming is a great way to do what we as human beings need to do all the time -- to take ourselves away from the oppressive facts of our lives and go somewhere where we have our own control."

Ebert: Spoken with the maturity of an honest and articulate 4-year old.
Click to expand...
That's frankly uncalled for, and his further elaboration doesn't help. I think Ebert is simply out of touch with what games are, and how they medium is evolving, and isn't a credible source for opinion on the topic as a result.
 
V

VALIS

Member
Games are fun and entertaining, but shallow, mindless distractions compared to most other forms of art. They're not reflective of the human condition, which all great art is. But we've been through this a dozen times in the past already...
 
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