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Harmonix dev has tough criticism of PS3 (long, thorough blog post)

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JB1981

Member
I read various game forums from time to time, and often see gamers complaining about 'lazy ports' to the ps3. They often mention how the ps3 is the most powerful game console and blame developers working on the console for doing a bad job. Sony has all of these people duped by impressive marketing spin, and I'm often amazed at how potent this type of rhetoric proves to be. For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck. First, lets debunk a few common misconceptions:

"The PS3 is more graphically advanced than the 360"

Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution or use simpler shader effects to achieve the same performance. Additionally, the shader processing on the ps3 is significantly slower than on the 360, which means that a normal map takes more fill rate to draw on the ps3 than it does on the 360. And I'm not talking about small differences here, we're talking roughly half the pixel pushing power.

"Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful"

In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors. You can probably find a way to split a few things off fairly easily - put the audio on one processor, animation on another; but generally the breakup is always going to leave several of the SPUs idle or underutilized. On top of that, it's usually not CPU speed that restricts the visuals in games - it's fill rate.

"Uh, Blue Ray!"

Great for watching movies, but not so great for games. Getting data off the blue ray drive takes about twice as long as it does to get the same data off the 360's DVD drive. That translates into longer load times, or god forbid if your streaming from disk, tighter constraints on the amount of data you can stream.

"But it's got a lot more space than DVD"

Ok, you got me there - it does have a lot more space, and there is the potential to use that to do something cool, but thats unlikely to be realized in any useful way. There are tons of compression techniques available for data and I'd personally rather be able to get my data faster than have more of it. Most developers who use the entire Blue Ray drive are doing it to work around other problems with the ps3 such as it's slow loading - for instance, in Resistance: Fall of Man, every art asset is stored on disk once for every level that uses it. So rather than storing one copy of a texture, you're storing it 12 times. If you took that entire game and removed all the duplicate data, it would likely fit on a DVD without any problem. They do this to speed up load times, which, as I pointed out before, are painfully slow on the ps3. So in this case, the extra space is completely wasted.

"Once developers figure out the PS3 they'll maximize the hardware and it will be amazing"

I suspect a small number of PS3 only developers will optimize the hardware to do something cool. However, this will be an exception to the rule, and will likely involved game designs that are specifically designed for the hardware and funded by Sony. If those will prove to be fun or not is another question.

Most of the performance centric research into the PS3 has been around making it easier for developers to get the same level of performance you get out of the 360 naturally. For instance, some developers are using those extra SPU's on the cell to prepare data for the rendering pipeline. Basically, they take the data they would normally send to the graphics chip, send it to an SPU which optimizes it in some manner, then send it to the graphics chip. So, once again we see an 'advantage' in hardware being used to make up for a disadvantage in another area - a common theme with the ps3. And this introduces an extra frame of latency into the equation, making controller response slower.

So, the common theme is this; developers must spend significantly more time and resources getting the PS3 to do what the 360 can already do easily and with a lot less code. Lets look at how this translates into practical realities for a moment:

Why the PS3 version often pails in comparison to the 360 version, and why exclusives often suck:

As outlined above, getting equivalent performance out of the PS3 requires a lot of work unique to the platform, and in many cases, even with all these tricks, you still won't see equivalent performance. Thus, many ps3 games have simplified shaders and run at lower native resolutions than the 360 versions. On top of this, there is shrinking incentive to do this work; the PS3 isn't selling.

The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future. These issues all stem from unbalanced hardware design, and any future hardware that is this unbalanced will likely be unbalanced in a completely unique way.

Finally, there's the problem of resources. Game Development is, at it's heart, a resource management challenge. Given finite resources, do I have these five engineers work on optimizing the PS3 version to look better, or do I use them to make the game play better and fix bugs? Do I change my design to fit with what the PS3 hardware does well, or simply run the game at a slightly lower resolution on the PS3 to make up for it? Developers striving to push the PS3 hardware have often sacrificed their game in the process.

This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.



http://jbooth.blogspot.com/2007/10/ps3-misconceptions-and-spin.html
 
The code needed to make the PS3 work is most likely only useful to you on the PS3, as the types of tricks you need to do to make the thing perform are very unique to the platform and unlikely to be useful on any other architecture now or in the future.

And all those tricks they learned programming on a triple-core PowerPC is really going to benefit the Mac port of Rock Band, right?
 

pr0cs

Member
Ouch. Pretty damning really. I'm sure there will be others though that will dissect and discount his post..even though he is a developer and has worked first hand with the hardware..
Perhaps Microsoft money-hatted him though... right?
 

Geezer

Broken water pistol loaded with piss
Have Harmonix ever done anything decent on a technical level?
Sounds like damage control in advance for shipping a shitty PS3 product, they've saved me some money.
 
_leech_ said:
And all those tricks they learned programming on a triple-core PowerPC is really going to benefit the Mac port of Rock Band, right?
the ps3 isn't as developer friendly as the 360. coding gods like naughty dog can do amazing things with it, but that doesn't mean it's not more of a pain to code for.

i think we have enough developers saying this now to accept their word for it.
 

AAK

Member
beriowned.gif


If Capcom can do it, so can you.
 
AAK said:
beriowned.gif


If Capcom can do it, so can you.
tell that to everyone else that made GameCube games.

we call them Capgod for a reason, and one is that they have some very talented coders.

just because some people can ride a unicycle as well as a bicycle doesn't mean that a unicycle isn't harder to ride.
 

Monkaii

Member
AAK said:
If Capcom can do it, so can you.

They never mentioned that 'it cant be done', merely stating its a lot harder to archieve the same on PS3 as with the 360 even with compromises.
 

fse

Member
Geezer said:
Have Harmonix ever done anything decent on a technical level?
Sounds like damage control in advance for shipping a shitty PS3 product, they've saved me some money.

:'(

damage control???? oh boy hahahaha
 
freezo said:
what are they working on
they aren't making any exclusives if that's what you're getting at. the last games they made that were exclusive to a single platform were both exclusive to PS2.
 
plagiarize said:
they aren't making any exclusives if that's what you're getting at. the last games they made that were exclusive to a single platform were both exclusive to PS2.

Well they wanted to make another Amplitude/Frequency and Sony told them no.
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
Jesus fucking titty christ. No one is buying your game for graphics Harmonix. You could make that shit on the PS2 and people would still buy it just fine.

Hell, you can definetly use the blu-ray to include video clips of the tracks rather than 3D models.

I don't understand why *this* particular dev wants to bitch.

Sounds like lazy devs are making gamers pay all around.

Go with X360 and their gouge ass live points system and shitty accessories deal, or go with PS3 and get a lazy port.
 

fse

Member
This guy has worked on GH I/II and Rock Band. Left Harmonix in September to join a new startup, Conduit Labs.
 
You know, for someone who just bought a PS3, it's talk like this that isn't exactly making my investment look like an appealing one.
 

AKingNamedPaul

I am Homie
Its sounds genuine to me. He is basically saying what we already knew..ps3 is harder to code for than 360 and the sales of ps3 gives less incentive. He isn't saying ps3 isn't capable unless i missed something.
 

Durante

Member
I can't take someone who says "the fillrate is significantly slower" seriously, sorry. Also, the whole "Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful" paragraph reeks of someone who hasn't grasped the concept of cell programming - at all.

(Disclosure: I'm currently working on my PhD in computer science, my research interests are streaming architectures and GPGPU)
 
Crayon Shinchan said:
Jesus fucking titty christ. No one is buying your game for graphics Harmonix. You could make that shit on the PS2 and people would still buy it just fine.

Hell, you can definetly use the blu-ray to include video clips of the tracks rather than 3D models.

I don't understand why *this* particular dev wants to bitch.

Sounds like lazy devs are making gamers pay all around.

Go with X360 and their gouge ass live points system and shitty accessories deal, or go with PS3 and get a lazy port.
whether or not people buy harmonix games for graphics has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING IN THIS BLOG POST.
 

freezo

Member
Geezer said:
Have Harmonix ever done anything decent on a technical level?
Sounds like damage control in advance for shipping a shitty PS3 product, they've saved me some money.
what are they working on
 

Geezer

Broken water pistol loaded with piss
lockii said:
I hate this attitude. What an elitist asshole thing to say.
Nothing wrong with it. IMO companies should hire the best coders or GTFO of the business. If they did there would be much less shit in the gaming world. I'm speaking in general terms, not specific to Rock Band of course.
 

Jigsaw

Banned
JB1981 said:
"The PS3 is more graphically advanced than the 360"

Fill rate is one of the primary ways to measure graphics performance - in essence, it's a number describing how many pixel operations you can perform. The fill rate on the PS3 is significantly slower than on the 360, meaning that games either have to run at lower resolution

that's why halo 3 didn't run in hd,because of the huge fillrate of the 360,right?
 
SolidSnakex said:
Well they wanted to make another Amplitude/Frequency and Sony told them no.
i was referring to Guitar Hero, Guitar Hero Rocks the 80s and Antigrav. not sure when the Amplitude/Frequency thing you're talking about happened.

Jigsaw said:
that's why halo 3 didn't run in hd,because of the huge fillrate of the 360,right?
there are many lengthy explanations as to why Halo 3 didn't run in HD and it had NOTHING to do with fillrate. why don't you go and read one?
 
I thought it was established a long time ago that the PS3 was going to be signifiantly harder to code for than the X360?

IMO companies should hire the best coders or GTFO of the business.

Yeah, and how many 'best coders' are there available?
 

elostyle

Never forget! I'm Dumb!
Jigsaw said:
that's why halo 3 didn't run in hd,because of the huge fillrate of the 360,right?
oh god help us...

Durante said:
I can't take someone who says "the fillrate is significantly slower" seriously, sorry. Also, the whole "Ok, fine, but the cell is like, super powerful" paragraph reeks of someone who hasn't grasped the concept of cell programming - at all.

(Disclosure: I'm currently working on my PhD in computer science, my research interests are streaming architectures and GPGPU)
The concept of where they make entire web pages to teach you to replace all your if statements with this: http://www.cellperformance.com/articles/2006/04/more_techniques_for_eliminatin_1.html?
Good for you that you do research on the topic and don't actually have to figure it out under the pressure of having to put in actual features into an actual game.
 

Geezer

Broken water pistol loaded with piss
freezo said:
what are they working on
Rockband.
I'll pass on the PS3 version and keep my £100+ in my pocket. Then I'll drive over to a friend's house and play the superior 360 version.
 
Negativity aside, his comments got me wondering what advantages there would be to the cell structure of multiple processing.

It seems like the large amount of SPE's on the Cell would be a good fit for many AI routines running at one time. Many gaming enthusiasts think/agree that AI is the next "next gen" feature, and this could help differentiate or even propel the PS3 past the 360.
 
Geezer said:
Rockband.
I'll pass on the PS3 version and keep my £100+ in my pocket. Then I'll drive over to a friend's house and play the superior 360 version.
you guys do know that this attitude is going to leave you in a gamecube situation.

you've got to buy third party multiplatform releases if you want to keep getting them.

Skate. NEVAR FORGET.
 

Firewire

Banned
This guys sounds bitter about something. Maybe its his own inability to master the power of the PS3. Maybe he should talk to Insomniac, Naughty Dog & Polyphony. I think they can teach him something.
 
lol $170 game
lol $500 console

I still suspect Activision is going to run away with the girl, and Rock Band is going to be left holding it's bits in the cold of night. It's the PS3 of video game software. B-b-b-b-but the Fisher-Price instruments! lolz :lol
 

Stop It

Perfectly able to grasp the inherent value of the fishing game.
Just got a small issue with this bit ref: CPU/Cell
In theory, sure, but in reality it doesn't work out that way. Game code simply doesn't split well across multiple processors. You can probably find a way to split a few things off fairly easily - put the audio on one processor, animation on another; but generally the breakup is always going to leave several of the SPUs idle or underutilized. On top of that, it's usually not CPU speed that restricts the visuals in games - it's fill rate.

Until recently I may have agreed, but Epic have should that multi-threaded games DO work, the UT3 demo runs at around 40% faster clock for clock with a dual core processor as opposed to a single core, and up to 70% faster with Quad Core.

Even though Cell is strange with the SPE thingies on top of the Main PPC core, it still could be utilised to great effect, and it's not like the fill-rate on PS3 is cripplingly bad, however, I do think it rules out full 1080p for most games for PS3, but then 360 has its own issues prohibiting that also, ho hum.
 
JB1981 said:
This post might come across as a lot of Sony bashing, but it's just the reality from the trenches. Sony let their hardware be designed by a comity of business interests rather than a well thought out design that would serve the game development community. They are going to loose hard this round because of it, and I hope that in the next round they take lessons from this round and produce a more balanced and usable machine.

What the hell is a comity? Not what he thinks, it seems.
http://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2003/05/13.html

Honestly, he sounds like a whiny developer who can't do shit with the PS3 and is talking out his ass. Are there any 360 games that look as good as heavenly sword or Lair or GT5? No, but according to this guy, they suck and they will continue to suck.

For those unaware, I'm going to break it down simply and explain exactly why ports to the ps3 will never be as good as their 360 counter parts, and why most ps3 exclusives will likely continue to suck.

Oh he said MOST ps3 exclusives, so those few ps3 games that look better than anything on 360 are doing it how? magic? Notice how he goes from talking about GRAPHICS to talking about the games will suck.

He's the one doing (preemptive) damage control.
 

urk

butthole fishhooking yes
Tiduz said:
Rockband sales -1? Sounds like theyre having problems :p

To be fair, it seems just about every multiplat developer is having problems with the PS3. Bash this guy all you want, but you can't pretend we haven't seen tons of delays for PS3 software that shipped on time for 360 and still ended up looking worse for wear.
 
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