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Is Final Fantasy shooting for irrelevance?
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Princess Skittles
Prince's's 'Skittle's
It's been irrelevant to me after VII, to be honest.
IX rocked, but besides that, I've only be interested in the ports/remakes of I-VI and Crystal Chronicles stuff.
IX rocked, but besides that, I've only be interested in the ports/remakes of I-VI and Crystal Chronicles stuff.
TacticalFox88
Banned
Final Fantasy XIII will be Sqaure's last hoorah. That much I'm sure off. If they lose Nomura, they might as well just pack their bags and go home.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Himuro said:
Wrong.
Lifetime X-2 sales are slightly higher, opening sales were higher for XIII.
Skiptastic
Member
I don't think it's a case of irrelevancy more than a case of increased competition and the rise of Western RPGs. Back in our maturing period, JRPGs were the kings of the consoles. Now, with the rise of BioWare and Bethesda, you have role playing options that are outside of the PC realm that are aimed for the Western audience. They're more irrelevant stateside due to this.
And to your point about other JRPGs, you get the double edged sword problem of if you change it, is it really Final Fantasy? But if you don't change it, do we want the same old stuff?
And to your point about other JRPGs, you get the double edged sword problem of if you change it, is it really Final Fantasy? But if you don't change it, do we want the same old stuff?
Misterinenja
Member
Blame the remake milking. I haven't tried XIII out yet so I'm holding my judgement on that one.
I NEED SCISSORS
Banned
To me, it seems like they are trying to replace lost soul with a big budget. You never needed a bajillion dollars and celebrity endorsement to sell a game, yet suddenly so many franchises including Final Fantasy MUST have them. Some of the soul has been lost in the last few years, which is evident in they way they the need to overcompensate like this.
They remain one of the finest animation houses on earth. If SE has been focusing on one thing its been the CGI over anything else. This game is their first offering in HD.
There are a couple developers (Japanese) who are pushing the movie quality cutscenes above anything else. They are making movies that you get to play in a bit. MGS4 did the same thing.
It's certainly one way for video games to advance, though not the only way. If you enjoy persuing that style of play then it's there for you.
I'm having trouble understanding the logic behind this. Practically every FF has new characters from new worlds and they don't interact with each other. Even the battle systems change quite a bit. The only thing these stories share is the name. They are each however the 'final fantasy' story that their world will experience.
There are a couple developers (Japanese) who are pushing the movie quality cutscenes above anything else. They are making movies that you get to play in a bit. MGS4 did the same thing.
It's certainly one way for video games to advance, though not the only way. If you enjoy persuing that style of play then it's there for you.
JudgeN said:
I'm having trouble understanding the logic behind this. Practically every FF has new characters from new worlds and they don't interact with each other. Even the battle systems change quite a bit. The only thing these stories share is the name. They are each however the 'final fantasy' story that their world will experience.
Haunted
Member
Well, FF is still a very strong brand, but the astounding number of remakes (even if III/IV DS were actually good), rereleases and the lack of a proper mainline title this gen - which also looks like it wasn't as well received as usual in Japan, and first impressions from western outlets do not bode well for its reception here - have tarnished its image and selling power somewhat, I agree.
On a more positive note, I greatly enjoyed TWEWY and TLR, so it's not like S-E has forgotten how to make great RPGs.
On a more positive note, I greatly enjoyed TWEWY and TLR, so it's not like S-E has forgotten how to make great RPGs.
The last FF I enjoyed was FF X and although I havent played FF XIII yet, what I have played of the demo and pretty much everything Ive heard about the game I have not liked.
There is called evolution of a game for the game that is good and when its needed. But the franchise of FF is evolving too much for my tastes. Faster/partial real-time combat, apparently no towns anymore, complete linerarity and no world map.
The things that made the series enjoyable for me is being evolved away. So if I dont see some traditional elements (combat especially) returning for the next installment there will be no FF XV for me.
There is called evolution of a game for the game that is good and when its needed. But the franchise of FF is evolving too much for my tastes. Faster/partial real-time combat, apparently no towns anymore, complete linerarity and no world map.
The things that made the series enjoyable for me is being evolved away. So if I dont see some traditional elements (combat especially) returning for the next installment there will be no FF XV for me.
BattleMonkey
Member
JRPG's in general
Die Squirrel Die
Member
DMeisterJ said:
This basically. This discussion has come up in the Japanese sales threads a bit over the last month or so, and while Final Fantasy may be in decline (in Japan at leastfor now, we'll have to see how the western sales hold up), when you are talking about a multimillion selling franchise there is a long road from declining to irrelevant.
The looooooooooooooooong development cycle deflated any hype I had for 13. And the game being linear and streamlined after this long development cycle without any towns really does put me off the game.
Hell I may borrow it after my cousin is done with it, but I'm not exactly excited about it.
Hell I may borrow it after my cousin is done with it, but I'm not exactly excited about it.
LosDaddie said:
I agree.
Ten years ago RPGs in general were mostly coming from Japan and Squaresoft was the best of them all.
Now, the west offers what "western" likes. With the rise of those big companies (Bethesda, Bioware, Activision-Blizzard and TONS of others), Japanese role playing games are having an hard time because there are a lot of vaild contenders, that have eaten a big chunk of sales.
Also products by Square Enix (and mostly FF stuff) are heading for a bad direction (thank you Wada).
All this combined = Square going shit basically.
I will buy FF13 and all of Square stuff that I like, because I love jRPGs. But I'm not getting hyped like I did years ago. And this makes me sad.
I'm sure Sega and Atlus would love Valkyria Chronicles and Persona to be as irrelevant as Final Fantasy with those sales. And about X2 sales, I'm pretty confident XII will have a much higher global sales than X2.
About the game, a little bit early to judge but I remember duckroll being quite positive on his impressions and I trust him. So far, the discussion seems to be around the linearity of the game and I don't really mind that, as none of the FF I have played have a real feeling of being in a world (running on a map with random encounters is not exploring a world). In a FF I just want an audiovisual spectacle, a good combat system and decent characters/story, so I think FF XIII has the bases covered for what I have read and played with the demo (I have preordered the european CE already).
In any case, I don't think so, every main FF have a huge impact, Square maybe could slow the brand milking a be a bit more selective, but the brand is very far from "irrelevance" at this moment.
About the game, a little bit early to judge but I remember duckroll being quite positive on his impressions and I trust him. So far, the discussion seems to be around the linearity of the game and I don't really mind that, as none of the FF I have played have a real feeling of being in a world (running on a map with random encounters is not exploring a world). In a FF I just want an audiovisual spectacle, a good combat system and decent characters/story, so I think FF XIII has the bases covered for what I have read and played with the demo (I have preordered the european CE already).
In any case, I don't think so, every main FF have a huge impact, Square maybe could slow the brand milking a be a bit more selective, but the brand is very far from "irrelevance" at this moment.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
So is this the part where everyone says "hey, LTTP, that Lost Odyssey is really the bees knees"?
I really don't think Square has to worry too much about FF. It's obvious they can't compete with the likes of Bioware or Bethesda in making relatively non-linear or open-world games in HD, so it's probably best they stick to what they do best, gaudy CGI and teeny-bop storytelling.
FF13 will probably outsell FF12's first month in the US due to being on two platforms. If not, Square is going to have to reconsider how they're pushing the series here (the US commercial is embarassing).
I really don't think Square has to worry too much about FF. It's obvious they can't compete with the likes of Bioware or Bethesda in making relatively non-linear or open-world games in HD, so it's probably best they stick to what they do best, gaudy CGI and teeny-bop storytelling.
FF13 will probably outsell FF12's first month in the US due to being on two platforms. If not, Square is going to have to reconsider how they're pushing the series here (the US commercial is embarassing).
BattleMonkey
Member
jjasper said:
*cracks the whip*
Haunted
Member
In the grand scheme of things? Sure they're irrelevant, because they belong to a small subcategory of RPGs (ARPGs and SRPGs) which only appeal to a specific niche audience.ULTROS! said:Valkyria Chronicles and Demon's Souls are irrelevant (since they're both RPGs made in Japan)?
Also, "RPGs made in Japan" is not a genre, just as "RPGs made in Germany" are not a genre.
Got a YT link? I haven't seen the TV commercial yet.jjasper said:
Could be two reasonsjjasper said:
1) because of the long development cycle, it's been too long since it's been first shown, it's always tough to hold gamers' attention for that long a timespan.
2) You outgrew the teen/tween segment Kitase's aiming at.
Quadrangulum
Banned
XIII still looks like a hoot to me but their recent design decisions will not conform with the expectations of western markets and nowadays, that's a surefire way to marginalize a franchise.
Annihilator
Member
I agree with op. FF13 was a must buy until I heard more and more about it. Now I'm kinda not interested in it at all. Also it just took forever to make.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
When people say "FF still sells 5 million hur" they're not thinking it through.
FF is Square's "big" game, the one thing they've got that pushes those numbers, and it only comes out every FIVE years? And it increasingly costs /how much/ to make? It doesn't matter if your star game sells 5 mil if it costs you fifty to one hundred million bucks to make and market, and it is the only thing you've got that pushes big numbers two times /in a decade/.
FF is pretty much the star example of milking a single fanbase until you run it into extinction. The commercials mentioned upthread that are "embarrassing" are an example; Square, since FFVII has had one tactic in advertising FF: show nothing but CG clips of stereotypical anime people with huge swords throwing a fireball at a bizarre, nonsensical monster. It has become its own stereotype by this point, and while it still titilates the fanboys who have Cloud and Sephiroth matching pillow cases, it increasingly turns away more people.
FF is Square's "big" game, the one thing they've got that pushes those numbers, and it only comes out every FIVE years? And it increasingly costs /how much/ to make? It doesn't matter if your star game sells 5 mil if it costs you fifty to one hundred million bucks to make and market, and it is the only thing you've got that pushes big numbers two times /in a decade/.
FF is pretty much the star example of milking a single fanbase until you run it into extinction. The commercials mentioned upthread that are "embarrassing" are an example; Square, since FFVII has had one tactic in advertising FF: show nothing but CG clips of stereotypical anime people with huge swords throwing a fireball at a bizarre, nonsensical monster. It has become its own stereotype by this point, and while it still titilates the fanboys who have Cloud and Sephiroth matching pillow cases, it increasingly turns away more people.
Final Fantasys have always recieved mixed coverage. I love how you say that FFXIII mediocrity is a fact. I agree that the dev cycle was way too long. I'm glad you posted this weeks before FFXIII is released in the west with a sales argument perspective.
All in all, you are right! Japan is doomed, Square will burn, Final Fantasy has been shit since VII, belts, zippers, too linear, Bioware and Bethesda are the only "Role-Playing" Game developers.
But seriously. FFXIII seems to follow the same structure as X. I loved X. Most people I know think it's the worst FF that was ever released. It has always and will be always the same with new FFs because every single one is radically different from the one that came before. In 4 years when FFXV is released there will be a "FFXIII was soooo much better than this" camp and a "Thank God they made a good game this time" camp.
All in all, you are right! Japan is doomed, Square will burn, Final Fantasy has been shit since VII, belts, zippers, too linear, Bioware and Bethesda are the only "Role-Playing" Game developers.
But seriously. FFXIII seems to follow the same structure as X. I loved X. Most people I know think it's the worst FF that was ever released. It has always and will be always the same with new FFs because every single one is radically different from the one that came before. In 4 years when FFXV is released there will be a "FFXIII was soooo much better than this" camp and a "Thank God they made a good game this time" camp.
It's on a decline for sure with all the spinoffs, remakes, etc and the increased competition from Western developers.
I don't think it's anywhere close to being irrelevant and it's still a good brand, but unless they find a way to do a RE4 style reinvention of the series I think you'll see continued decline.
I don't think it's anywhere close to being irrelevant and it's still a good brand, but unless they find a way to do a RE4 style reinvention of the series I think you'll see continued decline.
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