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Valve announces TF2Wiki, controversy ensues (who owns a wiki?)

E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
Yesterday, Valve announced in a blog post that it had acquired the rights to the content on TF2Wiki (formerly TF2Wiki.net).

Problem is, the transfer is not going smoothly. TF2Wiki.net was owned by HarriL, who had invested quite a bit of time and money (10,000+) into maintaining the site. Earlier in month, a volunteer admin, Smashman, began talks with Valve to transfer the wiki's content on to their servers, and brought up the idea with HarriL. HarriL considered offering the website for an undisclosed price in order to make a profit on his investment, but the deal falls through. Aching to get out of ownership, HarriL sells the website (it's traffic, ad revenue, userbase, etc) on auction, making a profit.

Smashman continues talks with Valve on the sly, deciding moving all the wiki's content to their servers would be best for the community. He completes the transfer and offers all of the wiki's content, pro bono, becoming lead admin of the new official wiki.

So now, the new mysterious owner of TF2Wiki.net is left with a dud, containing the same information as the new Official wiki page. Valve has gained years of work (public, and HarriL's maintenance) gratis, Smashman is now an official admin (how prosperous) and HarriL is left looking like a snake oil salesman.

So who owns a wiki, and who is in the wrong here? Valve and Smashman for orchestrating a transfer of data without the owner's consent? HarriL for selling what would become useless? I obviously don't know everything, but it smells rotten. [/detective]

HarriL's testimony found here (The whole thread is a goldmine).
 
B

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
Whatever the license agreement says.
If no license is given, any significant contribution (significance is not something that is a hard fast rule) is under copyright of the author.

Lots of free software projects have to deal with this issue. That's why wikipedia had an established license from the start.
 
D

Dresden

Member
The best solution is for Valve to fire smashman.

It wouldn't really help anything, but the douche would be left without the position, which would be pure gold.
 
S

sfried

Member
So Valve buys the wiki and they still don't have the decency to make a proper Team Fortress 2 manual for newbies? (That insert was nice, but...Common, even Half-Life 2 came with some sort of instructional card)
 
M

mbmonk

Member
So you, the owner, think Valve is interested in buying the site. You don't hear anything back so you .... don't contact Smash or Valve to find out what the status is.. you just put it up for sale? Sounds a bit strange.

I would like to hear the other side of the story.
 
BrokenSymmetry

BrokenSymmetry

Member
The same issue arose when ArenaNet wanted to start a company-hosted wiki for Guild Wars, when there already was a big community-driven wiki (now guildwars.wikia.com). To not get trapped in complicated ownership/licensing issues, their only choice was to start a new wiki completely from scratch, leaving it up to individual contributors to transfer content from the "old" wiki to the "new" one. That would probably have been the best choice for Valve as well.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
BrokenSymmetry said:
The same issue arose when ArenaNet wanted to start a company-hosted wiki for Guild Wars, when there already was a big community-driven wiki (now guildwars.wikia.com). To not get trapped in complicated ownership/licensing issues, their only choice was to start a new wiki completely from scratch, leaving it up to individual contributors to transfer content from the "old" wiki to the "new" one. That would probably have been the best choice for Valve as well.
Click to expand...
I remember there being a big stir about ArenaNet's rights to legally take community suggestions too. They definitely took a safer road to creating and maintaining their wiki.
 
S

Salsa

Member
sfried said:
So Valve buys the wiki and they still don't have the decency to make a proper Team Fortress 2 manual for newbies? (That insert was nice, but...Common, even Half-Life 2 came with some sort of instructional card)
Click to expand...

I think it has a pretty easy learning curve, all of the maps have introduction videos that pretty much answer all of the questions you can have..
 
S

soldat7

Member
BishopLamont said:
They're both in on it. (Smashman and Harril)
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I was thinking the same thing. By the sound of things, they both seemed to have gleaned some benefit.
 
L

Lonely1

Unconfirmed Member
SalsaShark said:
I think it has a pretty easy learning curve, all of the maps have introduction videos that pretty much answer all of the questions you can have..
Click to expand...
How do you rocket jump?
 
S

Sciz

Member
bandresen said:
Whatever the license agreement says.
If no license is given, any significant contribution (significance is not something that is a hard fast rule) is under copyright of the author.

Lots of free software projects have to deal with this issue. That's why wikipedia had an established license from the start.
Click to expand...
Poking through the live version and everything on archive.org, there doesn't appear to have ever been a published license.

So on one side you have the guy who owns the domain, pays the bills, takes care of the backend, and posts the ads trying to sell the whole thing for a profit. On the other side you have all of the volunteer admins who wrote the articles, organized the content, and made the site worth anything in the first place who feel that the information is theirs to give away, since they created it all in the first place.

Curious to see how it all pans out.
 
V

vazel

Banned
SalsaShark said:
I think it has a pretty easy learning curve, all of the maps have introduction videos that pretty much answer all of the questions you can have..
Click to expand...
For the longest time I had no idea what the Pyro's compresison blasts were for. I was also stumped as to what purpose the Demoman's sticky bombs served until I discovered you right clicked to detonate them.
 
G

gillty

Banned
vazel said:
For the longest time I had no idea what the Pyro's compresison blasts were for. I was also stumped as to what purpose the Demoman's sticky bombs served until I discovered you right clicked to detonate them.
Click to expand...
All part of the fun of playing video games, at first impression the compression blast is rather simple, however with a little experimentation you can discover the power of it. The game does a relatively good job of explaining the map mechanics and the class names are self explanatory, anything more is hand holding.
 
S

sfried

Member
Htown said:
The game tells you this.
Click to expand...
Does it? Does it also include the entire tutorial with how to crouch, crouch-jump, walk?

Online multiplayer games need instuctions too but not DURING the game.
Valru said:
All part of the fun of playing video games, at first impression the compression blast is rather simple, however with a little experimentation you can discover the power of it. The game does a relatively good job of explaining the map mechanics and the class names are self explanatory, anything more is hand holding.
Click to expand...
I disgress. First time I'm playing I was a little confused with the coloured plates and didn't know what "CP" stood for.
 
S

Salsa

Member
vazel said:
For the longest time I had no idea what the Pyro's compresison blasts were for. I was also stumped as to what purpose the Demoman's sticky bombs served until I discovered you right clicked to detonate them.
Click to expand...

D:

Well i cant really speak for someone who hasnt had some experience with multiplayer FPS games. But i think you can pretty much learn both things you said after 1 or 2 matches, really.
 
S

sfried

Member
SalsaShark said:
D:

Well i cant really speak for someone who hasnt had some experience with multiplayer FPS games. But i think you can pretty much learn both things you said after 1 or 2 matches, really.
Click to expand...
I think this is the problem. I think Valve assume all people who play TF2 have played some other multiplayer game in their life. A big mistake, especially if you're a person who's playing an FPS for the very first time (yes, those people exist).
 
D

Diablohead

Member
From reading the OP, Smashman is to blame for doing a sneaky sale behind the founder of the website, but valve should have confirmed ownership before making a sale to anyone.

Need to hear more about it.

sfried said:
I think this is the problem. I think Valve assume all people who play TF2 have played some other multiplayer game in their life. A big mistake, especially if you're a person who's playing an FPS for the very first time (yes, those people exist).
Click to expand...
itt no one experiments with weapons in an online game.
 
V

vazel

Banned
SalsaShark said:
D:

Well i cant really speak for someone who hasnt had some experience with multiplayer FPS games. But i think you can pretty much learn both things you said after 1 or 2 matches, really.
Click to expand...
Yea if someone tells you in-game. It took me many matches before I overheard someone on voice chat say the compression blasts were good for repelling uber'ed people.

Edit: And yes I have played many mp games before. TF2's class based FPS is in a league of its own.
 
I

Iadien

Guarantee I'm going to screw up this post? Yeah.
vazel said:
For the longest time I had no idea what the Pyro's compresison blasts were for. I was also stumped as to what purpose the Demoman's sticky bombs served until I discovered you right clicked to detonate them.
Click to expand...

I always check the controls before playing a game. I suggest doing the same.
 
S

Salsa

Member
sfried said:
I think this is the problem. I think Valve assume all people who play TF2 have played some other multiplayer game in their life. A big mistake, especially if you're a person who's playing an FPS for the very first time (yes, those people exist).
Click to expand...

Oh i know they do, i just cant really speak for them :/

vazel said:
Yea if someone tells you in-game. It took me many matches before I overheard someone on voice chat say the compression blasts were good for repelling uber'ed people.

Edit: And yes I have played many mp games before. TF2's class based FPS is in a league of its own.
Click to expand...

I always thought those character hints in the game menu explained all the basic class-only abilities.
 
S

sfried

Member
Diablohead said:
itt no one experiments with weapons in an online game.
Click to expand...
Which is why you need friggin' manuals for these games.
vazel said:
Yea if someone tells you in-game. It took me many matches before I overheard someone on voice chat say the compression blasts were good for repelling uber'ed people.

Edit: And yes I have played many mp games before. TF2's class based FPS is in a league of its own.
Click to expand...
The trouble is when you're stuck with douchbags, and they kick you for not knowing enough and won't even tell you what you're doing wrong.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
soldat7 said:
Unfortunately, I was thinking the same thing. By the sound of things, they both seemed to have gleaned some benefit.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see pictures of the two shipping off to the Bahamas together.
sfried said:
The trouble is when you're stuck with douchbags, and they kick you for not knowing enough and won't even tell you what you're doing wrong.
Click to expand...
You've been kicked from a TF2 match? That's strange. Play on more amicable servers.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tf2tactics
 
S

sfried

Member
Valve, if you can hear me, Make a TF2 manual. I didn't pay my Orange Box only to let it throw a game at me I could barely comprehend at first with only some vague hints via video.

The next Steam update should make the TF2 menu point to a decent reference for those who have never played any multiplayer fragging FPSs before. HL1, HL2, Episodes, and even Portal had basic control instructions at the start of each game.
Lyphen said:
You've been kicked from a TF2 match? That's strange.
Click to expand...
I ended up in some unsavorable server room via friend-joining. The rest is history.
 
S

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
SuperAwesome said:
Valve should pay the dude who purchased tf2wiki.net the 70 grand it cost him.
Click to expand...
Is the info on the wiki public domain? Who owns the copyright to the actual content? Copyright law would say that it belongs to the contributors by default.
 
J

Jenga

Banned
sfried said:
I ended up in a 4chan session via friend-joining.
Click to expand...
Well no shit you got your ass handed to you by a bunch of hardcore TF2 players :lol


I guess I sympathize with you, but this is really the only time I've ever heard someone call for a TF2 manual. It's rather simplistic. :lol
 
S

sfried

Member
Lyphen said:
Play on more amicable servers.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tf2tactics
Click to expand...
I wish you could tell me which these amicable servers are, and how to connect to them.
Jenga said:
I guess I sympathize with you, but this is really the only time I've ever heard someone call for a TF2 manual. It's rather simplistic. :lol
Click to expand...
Somebody should still make it nonetheless.

Now that Valve has the wiki, perhpoas they could? The very nature of wiki means its updatable. Right now, all I see are class guides, but no basic starter tutorial for TF2.
 
V

vazel

Banned
SalsaShark said:
I always thought those character hints in the game menu explained all the basic class-only abilities.
Click to expand...
The hints only gave basic ability info. Like mentioning the compression blasts are for repelling rockets(which I thought was its sole purpose) and not mentioning it's also good for repelling ubers.
 
E

erpg

GAF parliamentarian
sfried said:
I wish you could tell me which these amicable servers are, and how to connect to them.
Click to expand...
Pretty much any 32-player server playing dustbowl/payload maps. East-coast has 5 TF2Newbies servers too (24-man).
 
S

sfried

Member
I had this idea where Valve releases a separate single-player Tutorial level a la Half-Life which would be instructed by either the civilian or the Announcer. Then they would simulate scenariors like Capture the Briefcase in each segment while you slowly make a complete tour down the Map. Each of the basic maps explains a mode, with the newer ones explaining the more recent modes.

It's like the Commentary section but they teach you how to play instead.
 
S

Slavik81

Member
sfried said:
So Valve buys the wiki and they still don't have the decency to make a proper Team Fortress 2 manual for newbies? (That insert was nice, but...Common, even Half-Life 2 came with some sort of instructional card)
Click to expand...
If TF2 had come with a paper manual, it would be completely out of date by now.

vazel said:
For the longest time I had no idea what the Pyro's compresison blasts were for. I was also stumped as to what purpose the Demoman's sticky bombs served until I discovered you right clicked to detonate them.
Click to expand...
I saw that explanation in the loading screen yesterday. There are a couple of hints for its various uses. You also can see other pyros using it, or ask anyone in the server.
 
B

bernardobri

Steve, the dog with no powers that we let hang out with us all for some reason
Slavik81 said:
If TF2 had come with a paper manual, it would be completely out of date by now.
Click to expand...

Yep, a PDF up-to date seems more reasonable.
 
V

vazel

Banned
Slavik81 said:
I saw that explanation in the loading screen yesterday. There are a couple of hints for its various uses. You also can see other pyros using it, or ask anyone in the server.
Click to expand...
The in-game hint only says it repels rockets(which I thought was its sole purpose). It doesn't say it's also for repelling ubers. If it's in one of the loading screen hints I have not seen it.
 
V

vazel

Banned
Diablohead said:
And putting out fires on team mates.
Click to expand...
HOLY SHIT, you see I never knew that. I thought it was weird how there was no way to stop the fire. I thought it was just a matter of being near a medic so he can heal the fire damage before it killed you.
 
S

SuperAwesome

Member
vazel said:
The hint only says it repels rockets(which I thought was its sole purpose). It doesn't say it's also for repelling ubers. If it's in one of the loading screen hints I have not seen it.
Click to expand...

Also possible to rocket jump with it.

The topic was deleted on the steam forums...
 
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