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IGN: Silent Hill: Downpour Needs More Work

Naruto

Member
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/119/1194654p1.html

we're now a mere month away from the game's slated October release and it's in pretty rough shape at the moment. Almost everything in the demo had an air of clunkiness to it...

A lot of it just felt really old school in its design – aside from the previously mentioned cumbersome crank wheel sequence, there was also a moment where you had to push a mine cart along for no particular reason, and also switching from a large axe to your cigarette lighter made the axe magically disappear into your pocket as though the main character has a hollowed out wooden leg

This sucks. I was really looking forward to this, especially since I loved Homecoming.
I hope this turns out decent at the very least.
 

Dascu

Member
Even if it's been pushed back to March 2012 (as that new Amazon date suggests), I don't think they can really fix all those things mentioned in the article in time. The game's probably too far along to revise things like the combat and camera system.
 
One less game to buy this season, or at least wait until the bargain bin. I just finished Shattered Mehmories and am only planning on buying the HD remasters of 2 and 3 because I don't own a copy of 3. The magic is gone.
 

sleepykyo

Member
and also switching from a large axe to your cigarette lighter made the axe magically disappear into your pocket as though the main character has a hollowed out wooden leg

Seems like such a weird criticism. Dead Island just recently came out and characters can carry a pistol, shotgun, assault rifle and 5 different melee weapons. Who actually wants realistic encumbrance and inventory in their games?
 

EXGN

Member
Really? Complaining about disappearing items? Happened in Red Dead all the time, didn't see any complaints on that.

I don't doubt that Silent Hill is probably gonna be a shitty, awkward game, but I always hate when games writers nitpick at small shit for less hyped games but give blockbusters a pass for the same thing.
 

Kintaro

Worships the porcelain goddess
IGN would probably called Silent Hill 2 or 3 the best in the series (and even one), yet criticize this for being "old school" in design. While patting Resistance 3 on the back for letting you carry 20 weapons around, no problem!
 
Like I wrote on the Hell Descent forum, this guy has written all this in the belief that Downpour is out in October. That would quite rightly get alarm bells ringing, if it wasn't for the fact that there's no way in hell the game is out next month.
 

Tadale

Member
I think you kind of expect a little jankiness in Silent Hill. I think Homecoming was a pretty good time and under appreciated
 
Called the clunkiness from day one, it looked just as bad as Homecoming and no amount of delaying is going to help that unfortunately... :(
 

.la1n

Member
Acquiescence said:
Like I wrote on the Hell Descent forum, this guy has written all this in the belief that Downpour is out in October. That would quite rightly get alarm bells ringing, if it wasn't for the fact that there's no way in hell the game is out next month.


All I care about is it bringing a somewhat close next gen interpretation of the old greats. I don't care if it doesn't show every weapon attached to his body as he moves along cover shooting...oh wait.
 

Dascu

Member
Well, you can only care one weapon at a time now, no? It would've been possible and more appropriate if you actually could see the equipped weapon on you and if there were proper animations for that.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
EXGN said:
Really? Complaining about disappearing items? Happened in Red Dead all the time, didn't see any complaints on that.

I don't doubt that Silent Hill is probably gonna be a shitty, awkward game, but I always hate when games writers nitpick at small shit for less hyped games but give blockbusters a pass for the same thing.
sleepykyo said:
Seems like such a weird criticism. Dead Island just recently came out and characters can carry a pistol, shotgun, assault rifle and 5 different melee weapons. Who actually wants realistic encumbrance and inventory in their games?
It would usually be a petty (if not silly) complaint, but in this game you can have ONE weapon at the same time. There is no weapon inventory, and they stressed it a few times.
So, the weapon disappearing into nothingness for a different animation to play is weirder than your usual insta-weapon switch.
 
Oh no! Beware of the old school design! Because game designers did not know what the hell they were doing 10 years ago! And beware of the clunk! The game might actually, gasp!, try to get me out of my comfort zone.

I don't know if Downpour will be any good, but I'm more and more bothered by the lack of respect for older (or old-school) games and the clunk-o-phobia of contemporary video game "journalists". How is "clunky" defined anyway? What the hell is "an air of clunkiness"? Just because a game does not feel exactly the same as other comparable games doesn't make it bad.
 

sleepykyo

Member
Jocchan said:
It would usually be a petty (if not silly) complaint, but in this game you can have ONE weapon at the same time. There is no weapon inventory, and they stressed it a few times.
So, the weapon disappearing into nothingness for a different animation to play is weirder than your usual insta-weapon switch.

Oh, I stand, er sit corrected then. Hopefully they add in the weapon strapped/holstered animation by March.
 

Dascu

Member
sleepykyo said:
Oh, I stand, er sit corrected then. Hopefully they add in the weapon strapped/holstered animation by March.
Problem is, there's a large variety of "weapons", including chairs. Now I'm not quite sure how it plays out, but according to that IGN preview, it sounds like you can be carrying a weapon (let's say a chair), then hold some trigger to bring out your lighter and zoom into an over-the-shoulder perspective, and the chair disappears. Then you let go of the trigger, it zooms out and the chair shows up again. That would look very weird, if it plays out like that.
 

Lime

Member
Just off the top of my head:

  • On-screen button prompts.
  • Reflecting and glowing interactive objects.
  • Invisible walls.

Obviously Vatra doesn't get the immersive nature of the (obvious) visual aesthetics of Silent Hill, which isn't a good indication of the end product being a quality experience. If IGN is correct in some of their observations, my fears have been confirmed.
 
TheChillyAcademic said:
Less Hulett.

Yep... I think the problem with the franchise right now is that Silent Hill doesn't really have people attached to it that can say "no." Konami is supposedly pushing for a lot of things (like Korn) and Hulett/Gomez/Shatsky/Vatra are basically like... okay sure. They need to start taking a stand instead of just doing whatever.

I get the sense that Gomez actually cares about the franchise but he's surrounded by a bunch of yes-men morons who just want to go with the flow. I think a lot of talented and respectable people are working on Downpour, but they're having to follow orders and decisions by some of the higher-ups who don't Silent Hill from a hole in the ground.
 

Grisby

Member
Hmmmm. I don't know. I hope it turns out well since I really enjoyed Homecoming and could use another quality Silent Hill.
 

KageMaru

Member
also switching from a large axe to your cigarette lighter made the axe magically disappear into your pocket as though the main character has a hollowed out wooden leg

This is seen in countless games, how is this such a big deal now?
 
Jocchan said:
It would usually be a petty (if not silly) complaint, but in this game you can have ONE weapon at the same time. There is no weapon inventory, and they stressed it a few times.
So, the weapon disappearing into nothingness for a different animation to play is weirder than your usual insta-weapon switch.


It still leaves me trying to picture how James would put away the Great Knife in an IGN-friendly SH2 remake.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
the_korben said:
Oh no! Beware of the old school design! Because game designers did not know what the hell they were doing 10 years ago! And beware of the clunk! The game might actually, gasp!, try to get me out of my comfort zone.

I don't know if Downpour will be any good, but I'm more and more bothered by the lack of respect for older (or old-school) games and the clunk-o-phobia of contemporary video game "journalists". How is "clunky" defined anyway? What the hell is "an air of clunkiness"? Just because a game does not feel exactly the same as other comparable games doesn't make it bad.
Maybe you're thinking Super Nintendo or something... But if they were trying to compare it to design choices of the early 3D era, I know instantly what they mean. Weird animation, weird camera issues, bad modelling, invisible barriers. That kind of "old school design" wasn't charming, and even less so in HD graphics.
 
Lime said:
Just off the top of my head:

  • On-screen button prompts.
  • Reflecting and glowing interactive objects.
  • Invisible walls.

Obviously Vatra doesn't get the immersive nature of the (obvious) visual aesthetics of Silent Hill, which isn't a good indication of the end product being a quality experience. If IGN is correct in some of their observations, my fears have been confirmed.
I believe it has been stated that you can remove the on-screen prompts either by menu or higher difficulty. I'll be going with whatever is necessary.

Still hate those gleaming items, though. So annoying.


Oh, right, the delay.
Yeah, I'm glad about it. The more time they get to polish the game, the better. I would much rather them put out a higher quality product than think they have to hit the imaginary sweet spot of Halloween. I mean, seriously, who goes out to get a scary game on halloween? Everyone goes for movies, not games.

edit:
brandonh83 said:
Yep... I think the problem with the franchise right now is that Silent Hill doesn't really have people attached to it that can say "no." Konami is supposedly pushing for a lot of things (like Korn) and Hulett/Gomez/Shatsky/Vatra are basically like... okay sure. They need to start taking a stand instead of just doing whatever.
Goodness, that's a lot of supposition.
I mean, I don't know one way or the other how the internal affairs at konami really operate, but yeah. I don't see how it would be as easy as just standing up to konami if they still have the final say in the end. I mean, I don't know how much things have been fought for or against regarding this game or the previous ones, but it's probably a crazy uphill battle for some of that stuff.
 
they just need to shelve the series for a while. Until next gen, at least.

Downpour looks derivative as hell and Book of Shadows/Memories/Poon (or whatever it's called) looks like a small step-up on the creative scale from SH:The Arcade. Sorry Wayforward. You're a great developer, but I don't want some Super Smash TV style Silent Hill, complete with mish-mash of enemies from previous games, machine gun toting marines, and dual-wielding pistol goth girls.


Give it a rest, get some perspective, and make a fucking in-house Silent Hill game again, Konami. Dig up Imamura and Tsuboyama. Pay Yamaoka's free-lancing costs. Find Sato and Ito. For christ's sake. This series can still be salvaged! This isn't just about "D00D THE YAPANEZE MADE THE BETTAR SILENT HILLZZZ!!"- those guys had remarkable talent and were just pissed away by clownshoes KCET management.


But yeah. KOOOOOOOOOOOOOORN!!!!
 
TheJollyCorner said:
Give it a rest, get some perspective, and make a fucking in-house Silent Hill game again, Konami. Dig up Imamura and Tsuboyama. Pay Yamaoka's free-lancing costs. Find Sato and Ito. For christ's sake. This series can still be salvaged! This isn't just about "D00D THE YAPANEZE MADE THE BETTAR SILENT HILLZZZ!!"- those guys had remarkable talent and were just pissed away by clownshoes KCET management.
So... just keep remaking the earlier games in the series?

It's not like the old teams didn't change up the games some, but how many different games are you realistically going to get from the same pillars in the team?

edit: I wouldn't mind them taking a break, though. Maybe that would lead to some new horror IPs, which are always a plus in my book.
 

truly101

I got grudge sucked!
IGN said:
A lot of it just felt really old school in its design – aside from the previously mentioned cumbersome crank wheel sequence, there was also a moment where you had to push a mine cart along for no particular reason, and also switching from a large axe to your cigarette lighter made the axe magically disappear into your pocket as though the main character has a hollowed out wooden leg

Its cool if you can display your inventory on person , but I've been playing games way too long for the magical thin air inventory that most games still use to bother me.

Old school doesn't bother me, jank does.
 

OnPoint

Member
badcrumble said:
I don't mind the game having an oldschool Pocket Dimension style inventory whatsoever.

It's kind of a petty thing to complain about, but it shouldn't be that hard to have him slide it into a belt loop or something like that honestly.
 
Typographenia said:
So... just keep remaking the earlier games in the series?

It's not like the old teams didn't change up the games some, but how many different games are you realistically going to get from the same pillars in the team?


It has nothing to do with 'change'. It has to do with extremely talented individuals that came together and did some damn creative things. Konami tried to fix what wasn't broken- and they've been bumbling around different outsourced teams for over 4 years now. The result is a once very strong brand name diminishing.


These guys apparently had a lot of ideas. Hell, Imamura even admitted back when SH2 came out that he would love for the series to take a 'Twilight Zone' approach; i.e. different horror stories containing different characters and situations but the primary foundation is the bizarre, multi-dimensional town of Silent Hill. It wouldn't just be SH2-2, SH2-3, SH2-4, ad nauseam.
Production team was on board and it was proposed to help costs because they would be using the SH2 engine (one that, I must say, still looks great 10 years later).

It was a fantastic idea that would have allowed the series to maintain strong legs among the fanbase for a long time, IMO. KCET shot the idea down and we all know the history post-SH2.


I don't even mind outsourcing. I thought MercurySteam made a fantastic Castlevania game and I am thrilled to see what they do next. The work SonyBend has done on existing franchises has been outstanding.
If these major companies want to outsource their popular franchises, you'd hope they'd do some research and actually take the time to find the right set of minds/talents to be considered appropriate for the respective series.
Double Helix had no idea. They made a Buffy the Vampire Slayer game. Homecoming's final result was right around the level of a fanfic with a little bit of a budget. After various videos, I'm starting to feel the same way with VATRA. Sure, they say all the right things in interviews, but where the hell is all of that promising talk when you showcase the actual game?

But you can't just throw the blame on these outsourced teams.

The reality is that in 1998, KCET wanted to jump on the bandwagon and have their own 'survival horror'. They pulled together a team of ragtags, let them do their thing under minimal upper management supervision, and hopefully ride Capcom's RE wave. It was the potential of low risk/high reward, as SH didn't have near the budget of a RE game.
The end result was an amazingly creative horror game that was so far away from RE it was refreshing for gamers, sold enough to make the production justified, and even formed a faithful cult (no pun intended) following.
In early 2000, with Toyama gone to SCEJ, KCET once again tells 'Team Silent' (now being run by Imamura)- "Do it again. Here's your budget and your deadline" and essentially leaves them alone. KCET was far more invested in their golden goose- MGS2.

All SH fans know what came from that.

The bottom line is: the success got to Konami's head. They no longer had a little niche game with a cult following, they had a bonafide FRANCHISE! What was originally made just to eat into Resident Evil's marketshare became a legitimate competitor.
I don't blame the little outsourced teams for Silent Hill's decline into mediocrity. I blame Konami for overall mismanagement of the series and an apparent either A. lack of understanding as to what made it 'work' or B. simple apathy.

This can be corrected. I just don't think Konami has the ability to do it these days. The series needs to sit on the bench for a while until someone at Konami figures out how to make a game worthy of the vision of the original productions.
 
Are we going to start live posting everything IGN does?

You guys are putting way too much weight in this site's importance. After the last couple (only couple?) debacles I'm amazed you guys will still give them the time of day.
 

johntown

Banned
Tadale said:
I think you kind of expect a little jankiness in Silent Hill. I think Homecoming was a pretty good time and under appreciated
I know I do.......I do not expect the controls to be on par with Ninja Gaiden or anything. I know I will be getting this game more for the atmosphere and the fact that I am a huge Silent Hill fan.

Everything that people are complaining about mean nothing to me and it will not change the fact that I will buy this game day one......when it gets released.
 
It's a bit silly to take a preview from IGN and use it to try to prove a point about the decline of the series, pretty silly to get all panicky about the state of the game because of a preview on IGN, and a lot silly to get all prickly because IGN criticized an entry in a well-known franchise you love in a preview
 

soultron

Banned
The one demo video I saw really deflated a lot of the hype I saw. Maybe it was the person playing the game who sullied things, but it looked a touch rough around the edges -- particularly the combat. I wish I could find that video, I'd post it.

Still excited, regardless.
 
For certain Konami is to be blamed for the overall mismanagement of the series but that is not to say that the developers are blameless. In the end it ended up not only being Konami's poor handling but the literal lack of quality and talent at the respective new development team.

Every team who has handled the series thus far have said they "get it" and are "TRUE fans"
Fans they may be, but their understanding of what makes Silent Hill, Silent Hill, is completely off the mark.
 

Persona7

Banned
Danielsan said:
More work, less Korn.
Korn song is only in the intro and not in the actual game, you can thank konami for that.

I liked homecoming and this looks pretty cool from what I have seen. Will get.
 

Jocchan

Ὁ μεμβερος -ου
TheJollyCorner said:
It has nothing to do with 'change'. It has to do with extremely talented individuals that came together and did some damn creative things. Konami tried to fix what wasn't broken- and they've been bumbling around different outsourced teams for over 4 years now. The result is a once very strong brand name diminishing.


These guys apparently had a lot of ideas. Hell, Imamura even admitted back when SH2 came out that he would love for the series to take a 'Twilight Zone' approach; i.e. different horror stories containing different characters and situations but the primary foundation is the bizarre, multi-dimensional town of Silent Hill. It wouldn't just be SH2-2, SH2-3, SH2-4, ad nauseam.
Production team was on board and it was proposed to help costs because they would be using the SH2 engine (one that, I must say, still looks great 10 years later).

It was a fantastic idea that would have allowed the series to maintain strong legs among the fanbase for a long time, IMO. KCET shot the idea down and we all know the history post-SH2.


I don't even mind outsourcing. I thought MercurySteam made a fantastic Castlevania game and I am thrilled to see what they do next. The work SonyBend has done on existing franchises has been outstanding.
If these major companies want to outsource their popular franchises, you'd hope they'd do some research and actually take the time to find the right set of minds/talents to be considered appropriate for the respective series.
Double Helix had no idea. They made a Buffy the Vampire Slayer game. Homecoming's final result was right around the level of a fanfic with a little bit of a budget. After various videos, I'm starting to feel the same way with VATRA. Sure, they say all the right things in interviews, but where the hell is all of that promising talk when you showcase the actual game?

But you can't just throw the blame on these outsourced teams.

The reality is that in 1998, KCET wanted to jump on the bandwagon and have their own 'survival horror'. They pulled together a team of ragtags, let them do their thing under minimal upper management supervision, and hopefully ride Capcom's RE wave. It was the potential of low risk/high reward, as SH didn't have near the budget of a RE game.
The end result was an amazingly creative horror game that was so far away from RE it was refreshing for gamers, sold enough to make the production justified, and even formed a faithful cult (no pun intended) following.
In early 2000, with Toyama gone to SCEJ, KCET once again tells 'Team Silent' (now being run by Imamura)- "Do it again. Here's your budget and your deadline" and essentially leaves them alone. KCET was far more invested in their golden goose- MGS2.

All SH fans know what came from that.

The bottom line is: the success got to Konami's head. They no longer had a little niche game with a cult following, they had a bonafide FRANCHISE! What was originally made just to eat into Resident Evil's marketshare became a legitimate competitor.
I don't blame the little outsourced teams for Silent Hill's decline into mediocrity. I blame Konami for overall mismanagement of the series and an apparent either A. lack of understanding as to what made it 'work' or B. simple apathy.

This can be corrected. I just don't think Konami has the ability to do it these days. The series needs to sit on the bench for a while until someone at Konami figures out how to make a game worthy of the vision of the original productions.
This is a very good post.

By the way, we all know who is actually calling the shots.
 
BocoDragon said:
Maybe you're thinking Super Nintendo or something... But if they were trying to compare it to design choices of the early 3D era, I know instantly what they mean. Weird animation, weird camera issues, bad modelling, invisible barriers. That kind of "old school design" wasn't charming, and even less so in HD graphics.

I was more thinking along PC game design from the 90s. But you have a very good point. There is no reason to ignore the principles of how a 3D game should work, as largely established over the last 15 years. However, not every game needs to have the same button layout or the same inventory system, the same dialog wheel, the same tutorial structure, etc.
 

Beth Cyra

Member
I know people have problems with IGN, and I do as well. That said I really like critical preivews that don't gloss over problems and they say shit that they really don't like.

Granted I'm not sure I mind the poket demnsion for items but after Mass Effect and other games were this doesn't happen I can see some people starting to dislike it.
 
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