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New Vegas dev: PS3 Skyrim issues may require huge resources to fix (DLC may be worse)

C

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
It was posted two weeks ago but is starting to make even more traction with the PS3 version making headlines. Thought it could use a new thread.

Joshua Sawyer is a project director at Obsidian, and while he didn't have any hands on development with Skyrim, he did use the base engine for forming New Vegas which Skyrim still relies on to a certain extent. So it does provide an interesting window as to why the PS3 version is performing as bad as it is.

Originally taken from here: http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer
Forum post that organized the questions: http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1303536-new-vegas-developer-comments-on-ps3-lag-issues/

Question from one of lesser knowledge... Is there a save game size that you would call "normal" for F:NV? Mine is 14mb, and i'm having intense lag in multiple sections of the Mojave/ all DLC lands. Just curious if that is/could be an issue!

That can easily be a big problem, especially if you're on the PS3. The longer you play a character, the more bit differences on objects (characters, pencils on tables, containers, etc.) get saved off and carried around in memory. I think we've seen save games that are pushing 19 megs, which can be really crippling in some areas.
Click to expand...

If it's an issue why hasn't it been resolved.The pace at whivh game sellers basically dish an alpha or beta game to the marketplace is sickening. New V stopped being "beta" in mid-2011. I know as a dev my workplace wasn't AAA dishing but we had integrity.

Since you're a developer, you should understand the implication of what I wrote. It's an engine-level issue with how the save game data is stored off as bit flag differences compared to the placed instances in the main .esm + DLC .esms. As the game modifies any placed instance of an object, those changes are stored off into what is essentially another .esm. When you load the save game, you're loading all of those differences into resident memory.

It's not like someone wrote a function and put a decimal point in the wrong place or declared something as a float when it should have been an int. We're talking about how the engine fundamentally saves off and references data at run time. Restructuring how that works would require a large time commitment. Obsidian also only had that engine for a total of 18 months prior to F:NV being released, which is a relatively short time to understand all of the details of how the technology works.
Click to expand...

Hey Josh, different user, but same kind of 'lesser knowledge' bloke. What's a bit difference and how does it determine a save file?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_field

It's a compact way to store data. The bit differences in this case are just flags set up to mark what data has changed (i.e., are different) from what's in the core .esm.

Let's say that I, as a designer, set up a creature in an area. I set all of the character's statistics and gear and save it in the master FalloutNV.esm file that gets loaded into the game. You, the player, run through the area and shoot that dude. You loot him of his gear and put a shovel in his inventory because you are wacky.

The game needs a way to mark that his a) position B) health c) inventory d) some other stuff has changed on him. It does that by marking what fields have changed (by setting individual bits) and then indexing the individual (changed) values for reference later.

When you load the save game, it loads up all of the bit fields marking changes in your save game. When the individual objects load, it applies the indexed changes to those objects. That way, when you come back to the area you left two nights ago, the character is still sprawled out where you left him, naked, with a shovel in his inventory.

Individual bits of data are tiny, but there are thousands upon thousands of objects in F:NV, each one containing numerous data fields that could potentially be changed in your save game. Over time, it adds up.
Click to expand...

Is the inflating save file just an issue for the PS3 (I've seen lots of lag/crash complaints from PS3 users) or does it happen on all platforms? I'm just wondering if other platforms handle it better than the PS3.

As with Fallout 3 and Skyrim, the problems are most pronounced on the PS3 because the PS3 has a divided memory pool.
Click to expand...

(Same fellow you just answered) So....basically, every time I manipulate an object, it fluctuates the save file up or down? I've noticed files can get rather huge, is there no way this could have been greatly diminished in a game as big as New Vegas?

It almost always goes up. Some areas will reset contents after three (game) days, but a lot of stuff lingers. Additionally, we also have to deal with "persistent references". These are objects that are immediately loaded with the game because we need to be able to reference them anywhere/everywhere in the world -- even if the player is nowhere near the object. Characters are the most common example. All of the companions need to be able to move around the world even when they are not in your current area, so they are all persistent references.

All object data (excluding art assets like .nifs and audio assets [VO]) for persistent references is loaded at all times, so that's more-or-less a permanent chunk of resident memory. The number of persistent references invariably goes up with each DLC, so as the number of DLCs increases, the system has less and less memory available. Of course, the player's save game file only gets bigger and bigger, since he or she is going through more or more areas manipulating an increasingly large number of objects.

This is why some of our later patches actually removed content from the core game (e.g. Primm). Even though we had balanced the memory footprint for the core game, DLC content was pushing down the available resources.
Click to expand...

"divided memory pool"?

The Xbox 360 has a unified memory pool: 512 megs of RAM usable as system memory or graphics memory. The PS3 has a divided memory pool: 256 megs for system, 256 for graphics. It's the same total amount of memory, but not as flexible for a developer to make use of.
Click to expand...

But why did the patch remove content from the PC? Most PCs nowadays have 2-4GB of RAM, plus 500MB-1GB of GPU memory. So I doubt the DLCs negatively impacted most PCs to justify content removal...

If we had generated .esms per-platform, that would have been a crazy nightmare for a lot of reasons. A slightly less risky approach could have been to script the removal of assets using the IsPC/IsXbox/IsPS3 functions, but that also introduces its own host of potential problems, especially if objects are attempting to reference something as the script removes it.

We ran into a small but non-trivial number of crashes in F:NV involving persistent references attempting to interact with an object as the player transitions out of his or her current area. E.g. Chief Hanlon attempts to sit in a chair. The player leaves the area, the chair Hanlon wants to sit in is unloaded, and the game crashes.
Click to expand...

Hypothetically, if I were to play through FNV without opening any non-necessary containers (e.g. never opening an ammo case) or touching any non-necessary objects (e.g. never moving a pencil) would the game be more stable?

By some margin, yes, but randomized loot I believe is generated on the area's first load, which also applies to the equipment in many characters' (e.g. Fiends') inventories.
Click to expand...

Long story short: doesn't sound like an easy fix is coming anytime soon...if ever.
 
K

~Kinggi~

Banned
This was what i was saying in the other thread. Only fix for this is new hardware or less ambition. I'd rather new hardware, or no release at all if it cant handle it.
 
S

Snaku

Banned
~Kinggi~ said:
This was what i was saying in the other thread. Only fix for this is new hardware or less ambition. I'd rather new hardware, or no release at all if it cant handle it.
Click to expand...

Is the correct answer. However, greed always triumphs.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Wow. This is crazy. I wonder if a refund program will be offered, because this sounds terrible for those who purchased by the PS3 version.

Finished games should work.
 
M

mugurumakensei

Member
~Kinggi~ said:
This was what i was saying in the other thread. Only fix for this is new hardware or less ambition. I'd rather new hardware, or no release at all if it cant handle it.
Click to expand...

Only fix for future games is not to use the engine used for Fallout 3, New Vegas, and Skyrim. Clearly, there are tremendous issues with the stability of the database used in the engine. That Bethesda tried to play off Skyrim being on a new engine is disgusting to say the least.
 
E

Edgeward

Member
In a way, I'm kinda happy to have paid $20 for fallout 3 a long time ago to learn the lesson of never buying a Bethesda game on ps3 because of this exact issue. How games are allowed to be broken and still released is a real shame, and even more so that they don't have a solution for this after so many years.
 
F

Flunkie

Banned
As someone who just changed majors out of computer engineering, I still take pride in the fact that I understand the terminology they're using.

I know it's not much - examples like floats and ints are fundamental aspects of coding. It's empowering nonetheless! :p
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
So much fucking negativity. This is obviously a serious problem and if I had bought the game for PS3 I'd be pissed too. But Bethesda has way too much to lose here, they'll find a way to fix it.
 
C

chubigans

y'all should be ashamed
And this interview actually answers the question on why Fallout 3 ran ok on the PS3 but why Fallout 3 GOTY ran so terribly with all the DLC on the disc. And why they chose not to patch that version either.
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
Emerson said:
So much fucking negativity. This is obviously a serious problem and if I had bought the game for PS3 I'd be pissed too. But Bethesda has way too much to lose here, they'll find a way to fix it.
Click to expand...

You really should read Sawyer's comments. It's not something you can fix in a patch, it's a fundamental problem at the core of the engine.
 
C

Cruzader

Banned
Wow that sucks.

Wonder why those changes can't be saved into the cache or Game Data folder in the ps3 or something.
 
G

Grayman

Member
Maybe this could lead to bethseda changing their terrible pickup pencils clipboards and mugs game style. A large percentage of the save data could be described as varying levels of junk.

Bethseda is in the clear by now though since they will probably be waiting for next generation for a new game.
 
S

Speevy

Banned
On the Xbox, Morrowind was just nice to have. If it worked, all the better.

10 years later, this is just reprehensible.


It's not Sony's fault. It's not the PS3 hardware's fault. You shouldn't put out a game that doesn't work after so much play time, especially when that game is meant to be played over hundreds of hours.
 
E

Empty

Member
gee wouldn't it have been great if bethesda had delivered on the whole new engine talk.

that said if this is the case does anyone have any insight into the discrepancies between the unplayable ps3 skyrim and the ps3 port of oblivion which is meant to be fine. they both run gamebryo no?
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
jim-jam bongs said:
You really should read Sawyer's comments. It's not something you can fix in a patch, it's a fundamental problem at the core of the engine.
Click to expand...

Of course I read them. I'm just disagreeing based on my absolute lack of technical knowledge in this area.

If Bethesda doesn't fix this they could easily have a class action on their hands. I think they'll do everything possible.
 
G

Grayman

Member
Can someone explain the primm situation? I was planning on getting the Game of the Year Edition of New Vegas and playing all the DLC that way. On that version whatever was done to Primm will be done from the start though?
 
N

Nuclear Muffin

Banned
Lime said:
A little bit off-topic, but whoever at Sony thought a split memory pool was a good idea?
Click to expand...

PS3's XDR RAM is faster than the 360's. It's not that it's a bad idea in terms of hardware design (in fact it has quite a number of advantages), it's just the Bethasda didn't design the game and its save file system with the PS3's RAM setup in mind like they should've done.

They should issue a recall if they can't patch it. It's a broken product, plain and simple.
 
K

Khezu

Member
Grayman said:
Maybe this could lead to bethseda changing their terrible pickup pencils clipboards and mugs game style. A large percentage of the save data could be described as varying levels of junk.

Bethseda is in the clear by now though since they will probably be waiting for next generation for a new game.
Click to expand...

NOOO, an ES game with out useless junk to fuck around with would be terrible, better solution would just be no PS3 version.

Wait, I heard the ps3 version of oblivion was pretty ace, did it suffer from any of this?
 
R

Rad-

Member
I wondered how huge open world games can work on 256+256 memory. Well they can't apparently. I hope all platform holders go for unified memory next gen.

To add: not that unified 512 is that great either. It's still just 512.
 
C

Coxswain

Member
yankeeforever2 said:
They took Primm out of New Vegas............the fuck.
Click to expand...

No, they took enemies out of Primm (and maybe other stuff, but you'd mostly notice enemies). On release, when you got to Primm there would usually be 6-8 Powder Gangers waiting in town for you to fight. After the patches, there are only two or three, and they're pretty spread out.
 
P

PowderedToast

Junior Member
good on sawyer for clarifying this, it basically means that they released a broken product. not bugs, glitches, w/e. actually broken. that really pisses me off.
 
M

morningbus

Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Billychu said:
What are they talking about "removing content from New Vegas in patches"?
Click to expand...

I'm not exactly sure, but I think he may be talking about removing random items usually placed as decoration, or something like that.

Edit: I see someone answered above that they removed some enemies from the Primm as well.

yankeeforever2 said:
They took Primm out of New Vegas............the fuck.
Click to expand...

Primm is still there.

Ravidrath said:
I can't imagine Bethesda is happy about Obsidian speaking out on this... especially if it turns out to be true.
Click to expand...

Either this was a big mistake on Sawyer's part or New Vegas really will be the last Obsidian developed Fallout.
 
X

Xater

Member
Nuclear Muffin said:
PS3's XDR RAM is faster than the 360's. It's not that it's a bad idea in terms of hardware design, it's just the Bethasda didn't design the game and its save file system with the PS3's RAM setup in mind like they should've done.

They should issue a recall if they can't patch it. It's a broken product, plain and simple.
Click to expand...

And that is just plain and simple unacceptable. We are now how many years into this hardware cycle? They probably should have been able to create an engine that works better than this on the PS3. maybe they should have hired some more/better PS3 engineers.
 
E

Emitan

Member
Coxswain said:
No, they took enemies out of Primm (and maybe other stuff, but you'd mostly notice enemies). On release, when you got to Primm there would usually be 6-8 Powder Gangers waiting in town for you to fight. After the patches, there are only two or three, and they're pretty spread out.
Click to expand...

Ah, now that you mention it, Primm does seem a bit easier now. I just thought I was better at the game!
 
J

jim-jam bongs

Member
Ravidrath said:
I can't imagine Bethesda is happy about Obsidian speaking out on this... especially if it turns out to be true.
Click to expand...

As a pathetic, tragic Obsidian fanboy, it does make me smile a bit to see everyone gathering at Josh Sawyer's feet to hear his opinions about Bethesda's tech considering how much shit people gave Obsidian for New Vegas bugs.
 
S

subversus

I've done nothing with my life except eat and fap
Lime said:
A little bit off-topic, but whoever at Sony thought a split memory pool was a good idea?
Click to expand...

kenfuntimes.jpg
 
S

Shogmaster

Member
Rad- said:
I wondered how huge open world games can work on 256+256 memory. Well they can't apparently. I hope all platform holders go for unified memory next gen.
Click to expand...

The separate memory pool doesn't come into the equation if this wasn't a multi-platfrom game.
 
S

SolidSnakex

Member
Rad- said:
I wondered how huge open world games can work on 256+256 memory. Well they can't apparently. I hope all platform holders go for unified memory next gen.
Click to expand...

How do you explain all the other open world games on the PS3 that run significantly better than this?
 
G

gogogow

Member
Emerson said:
Of course I read them. I'm just disagreeing based on my absolute lack of technical knowledge in this area.

If Bethesda doesn't fix this they could easily have a class action on their hands. I think they'll do everything possible.
Click to expand...
Like fixing it in 2008 WAAAAAY before Skyrim, oh wait.
 
P

PowderedToast

Junior Member
Ravidrath said:
I can't imagine Bethesda is happy about Obsidian speaking out on this... especially if it turns out to be true.
Click to expand...

i remember reading that their contract for new vegas turned out pretty shitty for obsidian anyway. although i'm sure sawyer has no malicious intent, he's just responding to queries.
 
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