[Mpl90]

http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/05/446...ames-with.html

TOKYO -- The Consumer Affairs Agency in Japan has concluded that a system used by some online game operators on social networking service (SNS) websites constitutes a violation of a law that bans certain types of sales methods, according to sources close to the agency. In such online games, known as "kompu gacha" (complete gacha), players can win a grand prize, a rare virtual item, after purchasing a certain number of required items. The agency began investigating the game services after receiving complaints about extremely high charges imposed on players of such games on SNS websites such as Gree and Mobage. The agency will soon release its views on the issue, the sources said. The agency also plans to ask companies that offer such games to stop using the questionable sales method. If companies fail to comply with the request, the agency will issue a correction order with punitive measures in line with the law against unjustifiable premiums and misleading representation. The market for online mobile-phone games is worth about 250 billion yen (1 billion yen is equal to $12.52 million), with kompu gacha games having become the main revenue source for SNS operators of such services. However, the kompu gacha games have often been criticized for taking advantage of users' gambling spirit. Some parents complained their children had become addicted and were billed for exorbitant charges. The original gacha games were inspired by automatic vending machines that sell capsules containing toys. However, instead of buying real items, online gacha players purchase virtual items for hundreds of yen, which they then use for various purposes. The players do not know in advance which item they will get, giving the game the feel of a lottery. In kompu gacha, an advanced form of gacha, players can obtain rare items once they collect a certain combination of items available in gacha games. This system was introduced in online games by SNS website operators around last year. Popular kompu gacha games include Mobage's "The Idolm(at symbol)ster Cinderella Girls," and Gree's "Tanken Dori Rando." According to the agency and other sources, there were only five complaints or inquiries concerning the high charges for gacha games in fiscal 2010. However, the number surged to 58 in fiscal 2011. In one case, a middle school boy was charged more than 400,000 yen in just one month, while a primary school boy racked up 120,000 yen in charges over three days playing the games. The law on unjustifiable premiums prohibits a sales method called "cards combination" for systems that offer prizes by lottery. Under this method, a business sells cards whose content is unknown at the time of purchase. After the consumer collects designated cards, they can trade them in for a prize. The agency concluded that kompu gacha games employ this business method. The agency plans to ask Social Game Platform Renraku Kyogikai, a liaison council of six social game makers, including Gree and DeNA Co., which operates the Mobage site, to stop offering kompu gacha games. "We'll give an appropriate response after receiving an official request," a Gree spokesperson said. A DeNA spokesperson declined to comment. Social games are provided to members of SNS websites, on which people interact with their friends and others via the Internet. In many of these types of games, players can choose to cooperate with or compete against each other. Though the games are free, in principle, aside from Internet access fees, users have the option to purchase such items as virtual weapons and clothing if they want to have an advantage in the game. Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/2012/05/05/446...#storylink=cpy

An extreme example of how the gatcha system can be considered gambling?

http://kotaku.com/5899328/heroines-a...maginary-idols

Recently a couple of videos have emerged showing one player's attempt at obtaining a special rare set. Viewers watch and comment as he ends up spending ¥78,000 (US$949) without success. As generous as his donation to Namco Bandai is, this isn't an isolated case. Some people have even boasted spending over ¥100,000 (US$1,217), proving the game to be highly addictive.

But talking in more concrete terms, how much is important the SNS market?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost...&postcount=327

This is news of rather importance, not getting enough attention in the west. Konami's social games now compose more of their profits then console games Namcobandai has made more then 40 million dollars a month on Idol master sns whose main aspect is complete gatcha's Companies are now open to lawsuits demanding returns on money spent on complete gatcha's. Based on Ichiro's rough calculations this could be as much as 120 billion yen($1.5 billion)

[Erethian]

Yeah, this ruling is a pretty huge deal so far as social gaming companies in Japan go, including traditional game companies who have increasingly delved into the social gaming business.

They're going to be looking at a huge loss in revenue if this ruling is as strictly enforced as it seems it will be. At the very least they'll have to generate new business models.

[Sir_Crocodile]

My heart bleeds

[TriGen]

Yeah, this ruling is a pretty huge deal so far as social gaming companies in Japan go, including traditional game companies who have increasingly delved into the social gaming business. They're going to be looking at a huge loss in revenue if this ruling is as strictly enforced as it seems it will be. At the very least they'll have to generate new business models.

Well said.

[Rapstah]

Interesting: isn't that basically the same system as TF2 crates and to lesser extent ME3 supply packs?

[RSLAEV]

Oh well I guess PSO2 is cancelled then, wrap it up gatcha-ailures.

[Coxswain]

Interesting: isn't that basically the same system as TF2 crates and to lesser extent ME3 supply packs?

Close, but the specific problem here (unless I'm reading this wrong) is that rather than simply charging money to get randomized game items like in ME3, they're charging money to get randomized game items, and the only way to get the most sought-after items is to win a specific combination of those items.

Basically, imagine ME3's system, except that 1) You can only get the unlock packs via paying actual money, 2) only the Human classes are actually directly available inside the packs. Imagine if you needed to get all twelve Human 'cards' before you could get one of the alien class cards.

Having seen the system in the PSO2 beta, I will absolutely not be sad to see it go. It's blatantly predatory, and considering how much of a black box video games are, it's shifty as all hell and could easily be tweaked by those in charge to screw people out of exhorbitant amounts of money.

[DiscoJer]

This sort of thing is pretty common in F2P MMORPGs. Maybe not requiring a set, but in Atlantica (owned by that company that was supposedly going to buy EA), you pay $10 for a very small chance of getting a mount (like maybe 5%?) and an even smaller chance of getting a rare version of that mount (1%?). People spend several hundred dollars on the boxes, and often don't get anything.

City of Heroes recently introduced "Super Packs", which are like $1 a piece I think. They contain a chance to win part of an exclusive costume set (with like 12 pieces) and also an exclusive in game pet. Some people spend $50 on the packs and didn't get all the costume pieces, much less the pet.

Star Trek Online and LOTRO have random boxes that give out exclusive (or elaborate) prizes, but they drop in the game. Instead they sell the keys to open the box in the store, $1 a piece.

Maybe it's in more MMORPGs, but those are the ones I've played more than a little.

I think they are just going to keep pushing it until the government catches wind (which in the US, could take a while, considering the lack of technical awareness of politicians, outside of listening to lobbyists) and cracks down on it as well.

[Coxy]

Oh well I guess PSO2 is cancelled then, wrap it up gatcha-ailures.

they did comment on this and the gacha complete rewards will be removed from PSO2

[Phife Dawg]

Good time they crack down on it. Hope other countries follow. It's gambling and not uncommon with these new gaming experiences in the west as well. Rules should be equal.

[starmud]

and nexon just relocated their HQ to japan xD

i've played gacha in a few games, some aren't as abusive as others. i've played many where the system is fairly friendly and at least makes sure to give you some type of item worth the small entry fee. i really dont consider this gambling per say. they are giving you an item "equal" to your minimum buy. with the given chance of a supa item.

that said, nexon is the worst. i mean, worst. its obscene. so, im for any monkey in the works to give developers like nexon a headache over this type of wrangling in gaming.

their more recent move of making item upgrading work like gacha was brilliant. a cash shop item to get random stats, godly or useless, all random luck. only a few dollars a go.

i've known some people who have spent upwards of $2k to get the perfect set. adults, of course >____>

they take advantage of largely young players who will blow mom and dads money without care. easy access shake down.

i've seen first hand some of these players, young and old, become purely obsessed with gacha type items in an effort to acquire the perfect item.

something many people fret over in mmo's, but monetizing such basic functions of the game shows what the obvious motives are. they take people who are "addicted" for a better sense, and abuse them knowing this. its sad, especially after seeing how many of these players who become like this, have real life issues behind the obsessive play and in turn form the justification to blow money they dont have on digital item upgrades.

[sprsk]

To see how much of a scam this gacha shit is, here's a simulator that will calculate how much money it takes to get all the cards necessary to complete a set: http://49.212.5.128/compsim/

You can set the percentage chance for getting a set card at the top, then (from top to bottom) you can either gacha once, do a special 11-gacha, or let the simulator run till you have everything.

Needless to say, even at 5% which is pretty generous, you're spending 12k on one small card in a meaningless, gameplayless piece of crap social game. Which really is worse than real gambling, cause what you get is a shitty picture with some stats attached to it. At least in rel gambling you can get rich!

[Victrix]

I would not be the least bit sad to see this hit western MMO devs as well

The 'pay for a box with random loot in it!' shit is straight gambling

And though I find it repugnant in general, the Korean mmos aimed at kids that have this sort of stuff built into their microtransactions are even sleazier

edit: And yes, that includes TF2 keys and all variations of such

[Gaspode_T]

The amount of money these companies have tied into long term advertising deals with superstars is insane, if their business model falls apart they will be in a world of hurt quickly...

The downside of this story is that these places have been paying top dollar to hot shot college grads, there would be some fallout there and those guys would have a tricky time finding jobs the same level salary

[Tellaerin]

City of Heroes recently introduced "Super Packs", which are like $1 a piece I think. They contain a chance to win part of an exclusive costume set (with like 12 pieces) and also an exclusive in game pet. Some people spend $50 on the packs and didn't get all the costume pieces, much less the pet.

To be fair, the CoH Super Packs are probably the least odious of the ones you mentioned. Even if you don't end up with the costume bits or the exclusive pet, the pack always gives you something. The other stuff (buffs, enhancements, etc.) that you randomly get this way tend to be worth having, so it's not a waste of points unless you only care about the costume bits. As opposed to, say, STO lockboxes, where you can get a gold lockbox, pony up for a key to open it, and end up with something completely worthless like a DOFF pack. (Yes, I'm bitter. :p )

[matmanx1]

I'm glad to see the gacha system get cracked down on by the law. I find it fairly repugnant and while I don't participate in any F2P type games I know plenty who do.

[Gintoki]

Oh well I guess PSO2 is cancelled then, wrap it up gatcha-ailures.

MapleStory as well. Holy fuck, that game is full of it.

[Erethian]

Was mentioned in the Media Create thread, but all the major social gaming companies in Japan saw huge losses on the stock exchange due to this (expected) ruling.

Mobile social gaming companies Gree Inc and DeNA Co Ltd were standout losers, both shedding more than 20 percent after a media report that Japan's consumer agency may clamp down on online games that have gambling aspects.

Konami is down almost 18 percent and Namco down almost 10 percent; they're the two main traditional gaming companies who have increasingly moved into the social gaming space with gacha games, and got a lot of revenue out of it.

[Gaspode_T]

What is sad is that one of the reasons these games have been so popular is that people in Japan still use flip phones, but they are finally switching to smart phones in majority over the last year....I figured that itself would doom Gree/Mobage/etc but Japanese prove to be creatures of habit and continue to play these pointless "one click games" (think Zynga but even more vapid) on their smartphones. There is a world of diff between packs in games like TF2 and ME3 and what level of shallowness and psychological manipulation these games were

[Jonnyram]

The downside of this story is that these places have been paying top dollar to hot shot college grads, there would be some fallout there and those guys would have a tricky time finding jobs the same level salary

I don't know if that is a downside, per se.

I would say a lot of people lost their jobs in the game industry because of social gaming exploding the way it has, and hopefully a collapse in social gaming would put some of those jobs back. On the other side of the coin, people who have deliberately left jobs to work at social gaming companies, just because the salary was nice, will have to get on their hands and knees and grovel for their old jobs back. And that's how it should be, from an ethical standpoint.

[Zissou]

These games are stupid and I won't care if these kinds of carrot on a stick things vanish, but don't people have any self-control? I mean, if someone wants to squander their money, let them squander away.

[jman2050]

These games are stupid and I won't care if these kinds of carrot on a stick things vanish, but don't people have any self-control? I mean, if someone wants to squander their money, let them squander away.

If people had self-control than gambling wouldn't be the big business it is.

[sprsk]

These games are stupid and I won't care if these kinds of carrot on a stick things vanish, but don't people have any self-control? I mean, if someone wants to squander their money, let them squander away.

The biggest problem is that kids do not have self control.

[Jonnyram]

If people had self-control than gambling wouldn't be the big business it is.

Which is exactly why this particular system needs regulation.
Currently people pay afterwards, it's available 24/7, wherever you are, and worst of all, there is no age restriction.

[Dambrosi]

Good to hear about these exploitation machines being cracked down on. The next step is, of course, banning them entirely, which might be just a wish too far from this old coot.

We need judgments like this in the West now, to prevent gacha game-type exploitation being exported to the US and Europe. Or are our gambling regulations tough enough already to combat them?

[cw_sasuke]

http://andriasang.com/con0we/dena_gree_complete_gacha/

It begins ( or ends)

[squall23]

These games are stupid and I won't care if these kinds of carrot on a stick things vanish, but don't people have any self-control? I mean, if someone wants to squander their money, let them squander away.

http://shop.sdgo.ogplanet.com/gashapon.og

I present to you the SD Gundam Online Web Gasha. Each roll costs $1.75. The prizes are below the "game". I think it was 3 months ago, some dumbass spent $200 on this thing without ever getting the unit he wanted. He complained in the forums and as usual it fell on deaf ears.

The sad thing is, every single Mobile Suit is obtainable in the game without ever having to spend a single cent, you just have to be patient and wait for OGP to actually let you pay with in-game points.

[Gaspode_T]

I don't know if that is a downside, per se. I would say a lot of people lost their jobs in the game industry because of social gaming exploding the way it has, and hopefully a collapse in social gaming would put some of those jobs back. On the other side of the coin, people who have deliberately left jobs to work at social gaming companies, just because the salary was nice, will have to get on their hands and knees and grovel for their old jobs back. And that's how it should be, from an ethical standpoint.

Yeah I agree there, Zynga lured away some of my former co workers in California office and I could imagine them coming back...in Japan terms not many companies offer kids out of school six figs but rumor has been these companies were, maybe only a dozen or so companies can match that and only if they are lucky

[ElFly]

Worst case they'll change up the systems so getting prizes depends (partially) on skill.

Like in Pachinko.

[Songbird]

To be fair, the CoH Super Packs are probably the least odious of the ones you mentioned. Even if you don't end up with the costume bits or the exclusive pet, the pack always gives you something. The other stuff (buffs, enhancements, etc.) that you randomly get this way tend to be worth having, so it's not a waste of points unless you only care about the costume bits. As opposed to, say, STO lockboxes, where you can get a gold lockbox, pony up for a key to open it, and end up with something completely worthless like a DOFF pack. (Yes, I'm bitter. :p )

I think it cost me less than £10 for the entire costume set, and I got some fun buffs out of it. Maybe I was just lucky.

Good to hear about these exploitation machines being cracked down on. The next step is, of course, banning them entirely, which might be just a wish too far from this old coot. We need judgments like this in the West now, to prevent gacha game-type exploitation being exported to the US and Europe. Or are our gambling regulations tough enough already to combat them?

I think PEGI will slap a big fat gambling symbol on any game where you can lose out and get nothing from a microtransaction. Heck, Pokemon had to get a skill game to avoid the symbol and that's all make believe.

[androvsky]

Good to hear about these exploitation machines being cracked down on. The next step is, of course, banning them entirely, which might be just a wish too far from this old coot. We need judgments like this in the West now, to prevent gacha game-type exploitation being exported to the US and Europe. Or are our gambling regulations tough enough already to combat them?

I think they're already here. EA sports games have special online modes where you can make your own teams, but guess what? You have to buy the team members in packs of cards, with random players in each pack. They can be purchased with in-game currency, but they're apparently very expensive that way. I don't think there's a grand prize if you complete all the members of a classic team, but I'm not sure that makes it a lot better. From what I understand, those are the FIFA packs getting sold for for cash when people's Xbox Live accounts get hacked.

And to expand on what I said above, is all the Consumer Affairs Agency complaining about is the grand prize if you complete a set? It sounds like the companies can just get rid of the grand prize and be good, which doesn't seem like a huge improvement in this case, since they can't (normally) be sold for cash. Is it because the grand prize typically has really amazing stats or something?

[laika09]

Cool.

A lot of microtransaction-based MMOs in the US use similar scams. Let's get those shut down too.

[Riposte]

Konami? Konami?! KONAMIIIIIII-

The biggest problem is that kids do not have self control.

Fortunately, Japan is hard at work on getting rid of its "kid" problem.

[sixteen-bit]

Gambling laws are pretty wild. I hear that's the reason why gaming tournaments over there don't typically have prize money because it's classified as gambling.

[Glix]

I thought it said SNES...

A lot of the slots where I work are made by Konami

[Somnid]

Worst case they'll change up the systems so getting prizes depends (partially) on skill. Like in Pachinko.

This would not surprise me at all. A new age of portable social pachinko addicts. Anyway I'm glad this sort of shit is being clamped down on.

[Jonnyram]

10% drops in DeNA and Gree stock price again this morning.
They seem to be stabling out a little bit right now.
Guess people are waiting for an official government stance before further trading.

[DiscoJer]

I think it cost me less than £10 for the entire costume set, and I got some fun buffs out of it. Maybe I was just lucky.

And some people got unlucky. There was a woman on the COH forums complaining she spent $50 on those superpacks and didn't get a full costume.

That's the nature of gambling - some people win, some lose. But considering they had previously simply sold costumes for 400 points (or $5) even £10 is a dramatic increase in cost.

[duckroll]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/article...nt-cracks-down

The stock of both leading Japanese mobile social game companies dropped over 20 percent today following comments from Japan's Consumer Affairs Agency that a key game mechanic is in violation of the law. Other Japanese game companies that use the mechanic, including Konami and Capcom, also saw significant stock declines. Gree's founder, Yoshikazu Tanaka, lost over $700 million yesterday because of Gree's 23 percent plunge in stock value. [...] Konami's stock dropped 18 percent on the news; Namco-Bandai's stock declined 9.5 percent, and Capcom's stock fell by 6.6 percent. "The market for social games may shrink if the warning is issued," said Makoto Sengoku, a Tokyo-based market analyst. "This would ruin profit pillars." A ban on the complete gacha game mechanic could reduce Gree's net income by 18 percent and DeNA's by 6 percent, according to David Gibson, a Tokyo-based analyst at Macquarie Securities Ltd.

More at the link.

[cw_sasuke]

Gree's founder, Yoshikazu Tanaka, lost over $700 million yesterday because of Gree's 23 percent plunge in stock value.

He must be pissed... :lol

[RurouniZel]

Question, 'cause I'm curious.

How is buying a pack of random items in a game any different than buying a pack of random cards in any CCG?

[duckroll]

Question, 'cause I'm curious. How is buying a pack of random items in a game any different than buying a pack of random cards in any CCG?

They're not banning Gacha, they're banning Complete Gacha. If they offered super cards which require you to collect 5 rare cards first, before you can redeem them, the practice might be frowned upon too.

[mclem]

The original gacha games were inspired by automatic vending machines that sell capsules containing toys. However, instead of buying real items, online gacha players purchase virtual items for hundreds of yen, which they then use for various purposes.

At first that phrase sounded a lot worse than it did after I thought about it for a bit.

[RurouniZel]

They're not banning Gacha, they're banning Complete Gacha. If they offered super cards which require you to collect 5 rare cards first, before you can redeem them, the practice might be frowned upon too.

Gotcha. (snerk). Thanks. :-)

[beje]

I've seen it in SMT:Imagine Online (and baited some times, winning what I wanted in nearly half of them) but it's not nearly as bad as...

- You can always see which packs you can get taking a chance: one (or several) of them is the "good prize". You are always guaranteed a prize.
- Even if you don't get the good prize, you get one of the other packs, which always include pay items (usually teleports, extra exp, ability resets, crafting boosts...) unobtainable by normal gameplay and that are usually more valuable than if bought individually from the shop

So I guess it's not under this new law because if you get the good prize, that's it: it's the best currently offered for that week, you have a good chance of getting it at the first attempt (I did) and it's yours, end of issue, no "collect useless cards with no value by themselves, then redeem for the prize when you have all" bullshit.

[Stumpokapow]

At first I said "lol japan"

And then I realized the #1 top grossing app in the iOS App Store is a virtual slot machine, where you can pay real money to play, but can't win real money.

So, uh, lol humanity

[PetriP-TNT]

And then I realized the #1 top grossing app in the iOS App Store is a virtual slot machine, where you can pay real money to play, but can't win real money. So, uh, lol humanity

Are you serious? If you are then oh wow

[sixteen-bit]

At first I said "lol japan" And then I realized the #1 top grossing app in the iOS App Store is a virtual slot machine, where you can pay real money to play, but can't win real money. So, uh, lol humanity

That's hilarious.

[DangerousDave]

Are you serious? If you are then oh wow

Go to iTunes. Select US store (or any store). Go to top games by revenue.

And you'll see that from the top 100, there are 73 that are freemium games. And most of the other 27, like Angry Birds Space, are preemium (base cost, but ingame purchases if you want to progress faster).

[Synth_floyd]

How is this illegal? If people want to pay lots of money for this stuff then more power to them. You can't save people from themselves.