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gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-03-2013, 08:36 AM)
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So I believe this is interesting in light of a prior rumour about Sony limiting second hand game sales on PS4.

Sony has been working on new technology for limiting used game sales, and has applied for a patent. The patent was filed 09/12/2012 by SCEJ.

Perhaps this work is where the rumour came from. Or perhaps it independently corroborates the rumour.

Link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2013/0007892.html

Anyway, here's some of the relevant detail:

According to the present embodiment, realized is the electronic content processing system that reliably restricts the use of electronic content dealt in the second-hand markets. As a result, the dealing of electronic content in the second-hand markets is suppressed, which in turn supports the redistribution of part of proceeds from sales of the electronic content to the developers. Though in the following description a game application (AP) is exemplified as the electronic content, the present embodiment is similarly applicable to various kinds of electronic content such as an office suite, images, and music content.

By employing the game playing system 1000 according to the present embodiment, the use permission tag 220 together with the game disk 210 is supplied to the user, and the use permission tag 220 actively determines the use permit/rejection of electronic content. Thereby, the use of game AP stored in the game disk 210 can be restricted as appropriate according to the attribute of a reproduction device. Consider, for example, a case where used is a game package 200 distributed in the second-hand market. Then the ID of reproduction device for the game disk 210 differs from the legitimate use device ID stored in the use permission tag 220, so that the game disk can be reproduced in a mode which is predetermined for those bought and sold in the second-hand market. Also, for example, a content key may be supplied to the reproduction device 130 and the encrypted game AP may be decrypted using the content key only if the reproduction device ID matches a legitimate use device ID. Hence, use of game APs bought and sold in the second-hand market can be eliminated.

It works by supplying a contactless RF tag with each copy of a game (NFC?), which can (independent of a network connection), remember if a game has been tied to a different machine or user account previously. The system checks with the tag before playing the game.

I suppose I should say that this doesn't mean PS4 will, for sure, restrict second hand games. This would not be the first time Sony registered patents in this area and then did nothing with the tech. In fact I remember a patent fueling rumours prior to PS3's launch. The decision would be a business one, not one based on technical feasibility. This system would be relatively expensive to implement vs network-DRM. Although it could have the double effect of limiting piracy - at least until pirates could hack or reproduce the 'rf tag' system.

The last official comment we had from someone at Sony was Jack Tretton's "'for the record, I'm totally opposed to blocking used games." - but maybe people would be better reassured by a comment from SCEJ...

So with those qualifications out of the way, have at it :P

edit - since it's causing some confusion, the application refers to a system that can tie a game to your user ID (i.e. your account), or a machine ID via the RF tag. For people wondering what would happen if your console died etc.
Last edited by gofreak; 01-03-2013 at 10:46 AM.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:38 AM)
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God damn it.


I always buy used games.
outunderthestars
He's not our sharpest knife.
(01-03-2013, 08:38 AM)
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It would require all consoles to have an internet connection in order to play a game. That alone will keep it from being used.
Valnen
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:39 AM)
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Rumor has it anti-used will be on both consoles. I don't have a problem with it because I play tons of PC games which you can't buy used anyway.
nofi
Banned for kicks
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

It would require all consoles to have an internet connection in order to play a game. That alone will keep it from being used.

Did you even read the OP?
Bumhead
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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Even if it gets implemented, I believe such technology is only viable if all platform holders use it. If either one system implements it without the other then they're essentially fucked. Way too much negative PR and anti-consumerism for one system to go with when the other exists without it.
Kenak
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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If a system prevents me from selling or buying used games, I will not buy that system. Unless we see the publishers pass on the savings by offering games at a lower price, which will probably never happen.
Router
Hopsiah the Kanga-Jew
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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I don't see them using stuff like this from day 1 next gen if ever. I expect more online passes next gen but thats about it.
Yagharek
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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So functionally it's a DRM dongle with the added euphemism of claiming that second hand games are 'not legitimate'.

Disgusting.
MuseManMike
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

It would require all consoles to have an internet connection in order to play a game. That alone will keep it from being used.

Unless I misread the OP, this system works independent of an internet connection. It's between the disc and the console itself. Don't know how the tech itself works, however.
Last edited by MuseManMike; 01-03-2013 at 08:45 AM.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

It would require all consoles to have an internet connection in order to play a game. That alone will keep it from being used.

RF tag on the disc is able to identify used games without a network connection.
Galvanise_
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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Clever idea. Hmm.
Fracas
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:40 AM)
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Something like this is totally deal breaking for me.
gofreak
GAF's Bob Woodward
(01-03-2013, 08:41 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

It would require all consoles to have an internet connection in order to play a game. That alone will keep it from being used.

It doesn't though. That's the 'new thing' about it. The RF thingie remembers itself relationships with other systems. At least, that's what I took from it. The patent application refers to the problem of systems that require a internet connection:

As a technique to suppress the second-hand sales and purchase, a user may be first required to send a password or the like to a remote authentication server from a reproduction device (game player) via the Internet and the reproduction of content may be permitted only for the device that has succeeded in authentication. However, where the reproduction device is not connected to the Internet, use of the content cannot be controlled. Also, where the connection to the Internet is an absolute requirement, user's convenience may be significantly reduced. Besides, users may communicate to share the password between them and therefore the second-hand sales and purchase cannot be eliminated reliably.

In view of the foregoing problems described above, according to the present embodiment, a recording medium and a radiofrequency (RF) tag storing the terms of use (use condition) are included in the same packet (package) of electronic content. Proposed is an electronic content processing system where a usage mode of the electronic content is determined based on whether a reproduction entity, such as a reproduction device or user of the electronic content fulfills the use condition or not.

michaelius
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:42 AM)
That's one thing which would make xbox 720 lot more atractive.
Combichristoffersen
Combovers don't work when there is no hair
(01-03-2013, 08:44 AM)
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Sounds like a terrible idea for consumers, and if Sony is the only one of the three platform holders to implement this then the PS4 is DOA.
Toki767
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(01-03-2013, 08:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by michaelius

That's one thing which would make xbox 720 lot more atractive.

Pretty sure Microsoft was rumored to be doing something to stop used games too.
outunderthestars
He's not our sharpest knife.
(01-03-2013, 08:44 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hydrogen Bluebird

RF tag on the disc is able to identify used games without a network connection.

How would that work? doesn't an rf tag require some amount of power to broadcast a frequency?
Gorillaz
sober as a drunk judge
(01-03-2013, 08:44 AM)
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Both have been rumored off and on to be restricting used games for awhile and I still dont see it happening.
Vulcano's assistant
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:44 AM)
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In an ideal scenario, a world without used games is also a world where there will be a thread giving away copies for free.
Wolf Akela
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:45 AM)
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ID-tagged gamers own ID-tagged consoles, play ID-tagged games.

Gaming has changed.
Susurrus
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:45 AM)
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What if your console dies or for some other reason you decide to get a new console?
kingkitty
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:46 AM)
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This hurts my soul. It's right near the top of the shittiest things you can do to a consumer besides maybe having every ps4 punch the player in the baby maker.
RoboPlato
I'd be in the dick
(01-03-2013, 08:46 AM)
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I still can't believe they're even considering something like this. The backlash from retailers alone would be huge, not to mention all the bad press they would get. I only buy games new but this is still indefensible. Not even being able to borrow a game from a friend is insane.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:47 AM)
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Originally Posted by Kenak

If a system prevents me from selling or buying used games, I will not buy that system. Unless we see the publishers pass on the savings by offering games at a lower price, which will probably never happen.

this. There are enough console games out there to play for the rest of my life. I don't give a fcuk about the corporate apologies, I will not buy into it. Full stop.
Hydrogen Bluebird
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:47 AM)
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Sony might just call it quits if they implement an anti used game system into PS4.

No used games
No Backward compatibility (rumored/possible)
Launching last (rumored)

Come on Sony.

Originally Posted by Wolf Akela

ID-tagged gamers own ID-tagged consoles, play ID-tagged games.

Gaming has changed.

Damn the Patriots!
Dragonzord
coaches in the WNBA
(01-03-2013, 08:47 AM)
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I'm sure it will go well with their patent to put commercials in games too.
opticalmace
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

How would that work? doesn't an rf tag require some amount of power to broadcast a frequency?

Apparently some operate by induction.
eternalb
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

How would that work? doesn't an rf tag require some amount of power to broadcast a frequency?

Which is provided by the powered device wirelessly, no different than how NFC credit cards work.
MuseManMike
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:49 AM)
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Originally Posted by Hydrogen Bluebird

Sony might just call it quits if they implement an anti used game system into PS4.

No used games
No Backward compatibility (rumored/possible)
Launching last (rumored)

Come on Sony.



Damn the Patriots!

Eric C
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:50 AM)
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So an RFID on the disc itself would prevent used game sales. No internet connection required.

Thats not how I imagined RFIDs would be used, Skylanders just stores your levels and stuff in your character's figurine.
outunderthestars
He's not our sharpest knife.
(01-03-2013, 08:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by eternalb

Which is provided by the powered device wirelessly, no different than how NFC credit cards work.

Well that is awesome. The tech, not the abusing consumers application of it.
abstract alien
baby dolphin -> sun
it's the only way
(01-03-2013, 08:50 AM)
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So I suppose the double edged sword with this is more shops are selling used games and taking trades, which they may not be able to do if this is implemented. Interesting if it actually happens.
plainr_
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:50 AM)
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This is worst than region locking.
mr_nothin
Banned
(01-03-2013, 08:50 AM)
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Used games have been long gone from PC ages ago because of retailers refusing to even take back (or allow trade credits for) PC games because you can just install them and return them. What exactly is the problem here?

I guess you could argue that since STEAM is around then there's no need for a used games market on PC :P
Wolf Akela
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(01-03-2013, 08:50 AM)
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Originally Posted by Susurrus

What if your console dies or for some other reason you decide to get a new console?

You could ask for a tag/system transfer I guess.
ThoughtsOfSpeaking
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(01-03-2013, 08:51 AM)
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The only thing that worries me is if this is introduced mid generation and is defended by Sony as "we don't mandate it, it's the choice of the publisher" a lot more people would accept and defend such a practise then.
JimboJones
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(01-03-2013, 08:51 AM)
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Originally Posted by outunderthestars

How would that work? doesn't an rf tag require some amount of power to broadcast a frequency?

The chips can be powerd by the device that reads them.
N30RYU
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(01-03-2013, 08:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by RoboPlato

I still can't believe they're even considering something like this. The backlash from retailers alone would be huge, not to mention all the bad press they would get. I only buy games new but this is still indefensible. Not even being able to borrow a game from a friend is insane.

Plus the fact that if your console gets broken your games would be useless... so instead the games should be tied to an account not a console wich is even worse if you have two accounts in the same console (if this is possible in the PS4...)
Mael
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:52 AM)
And I was wondering what Sony would bring for next gen, now I know :
the sense of touch



as in molestation.
Ploid 3.0
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:52 AM)
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I mainly wait until the games are dirt cheap before buying anyway. I haven't sold/traded a game in years, and I only did so because goozex made it so easy. Now Goozex is dead to me, I got out with 0 credits remaining. Flawless victory.

Also my main system will always be PC. It's just too convenient for me.
Eusis
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(01-03-2013, 08:52 AM)
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Originally Posted by Vulcano's assistant

In an ideal scenario, a world without used games is also a world where there will be a thread giving away copies for free.

That, or at least all games remain available forever without worrying about being unable to get them again.

And anything short of a Steam-esque situation is completely unacceptable to me (and I don't particularly want the Steam model on consoles either), I don't want my games tied down to a system that could well break down or be unable to EVER get a game after a certain point short of full blown piracy just because there aren't enough copies out in the wild and I didn't get it ASAP. I've said it before, but if Microsoft and Sony do implement this kind of system I will want Nintendo to completely destroy both, they'd either need to be humbled or driven out entirely. I suspect it may be too costly to merit the effort though, not unless it's pennies to stick this kind of tech on a disc.
B.O.O.M
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(01-03-2013, 08:52 AM)
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Researching is fine and all but please don't implement this. Don't care about bc or launching last (doubt it would be more than a few months anyways even if it happens) but this would be a real deal breaker for me
AdventureRacing
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:53 AM)
If this happens i know what it will mean for me. Basically i would just go digital only (probably PC only actually) and i would only be retail games if i was sure i would get a shit load of use out of it. Basically i would end up spending a whole lot less money on games.
iNvid02
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(01-03-2013, 08:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by mr_nothin

Used games have been long gone from PC ages ago because of retailers refusing to even take back (or allow trade credits for) PC games because you can just install them and return them. What exactly is the problem here?

I guess you could argue that since STEAM is around then there's no need for a used games market on PC :P

the problem is that these games will cost 40 or more at launch, whereas PC games launch for around half that, and also drop in price ridiculously quickly

i only buy a handful of console games every year now due to PC, and im ok with paying full price day one because i know i can trade/sell back if need be,
if sony thinks everyone is going to continue happily paying full price day one with the opportunity to trade/sell back taken away, they are sadly mistaken.
Last edited by iNvid02; 01-03-2013 at 08:59 AM.
outunderthestars
He's not our sharpest knife.
(01-03-2013, 08:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by B.O.O.M

Researching is fine and all but please don't implement this. Don't care about bc or launching last (doubt it would be more than a few months anyways even if it happens) but this would be a real deal breaker for me

Agreed. I don't buy used games, but i would refuse to buy a system that did this out of sheer principle.
Thoraxes
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(01-03-2013, 08:54 AM)
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Originally Posted by Eric C

So an RFID on the disc itself would prevent used game sales. No internet connection required.

Thats not how I imagined RFIDs would be used, Skylanders just stores your levels and stuff in your character's figurine.

RFID stuff is evolving for different uses pretty rapidly.

For instance, in some retail stores they're experimenting with tagging all products to allow for easier access to take inventory and to cut down on things like shoplifting (though if someone's determined enough, they'll obviously figure out a way).

Originally Posted by ThoughtsOfSpeaking

The only thing that worries me is if this is introduced mid generation and is defended by Sony as "we don't mandate it, it's the choice of the publisher" a lot more people would accept and defend such a practise then.

Eh, looking at something like eShop prices for Nintendo's digital stores (where this is the case), I don't think that approach holds any ground with a majority of consumers. They'll be against it.
Last edited by Thoraxes; 01-03-2013 at 08:56 AM.
99%
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(01-03-2013, 08:54 AM)
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As much as I oppose this and am for rights to resell things you buy it makes sense if you're making a 50 million euro product.

It would be much better though then instead of coming up with ways to BAN it they would come up with ways to get a piece of that resell pie. Like send your game back in and get 50% of a future purchase or something (within some time period). That way they would stop the flow of games to the 2nd hand market and tie the customer down for the future. Win/win.
Last edited by 99%; 01-03-2013 at 08:56 AM.
bodyboarder
Member
(01-03-2013, 08:54 AM)
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This would cause havoc when people have returned games and are resold as new. It honestly just sounds like a big "fuck you" to consumers, and I for one would vote with my wallet.
Vilam
Maxis Redwood
(01-03-2013, 08:55 AM)
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I'd like to see this become standard across all consoles. My one problem with it pertains to preserving games for future generations once they go out of print. Ideally there'd be some sort of kill switch that'd be activated after a period of time to allow games to be sold/played as used. If some games were doomed to become lost to time (digital downloads aren't enough - there are titles so niche that they'll never make it there) it'd be a deal breaker to me.

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