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RPG Codex Editorial: Where Journalism Goes to Write Itself (Gamescom-related)

Durante

Member
As the recent humongous IGN/GTAV thread shows, people still love a good games journalism debate. As such, I'd like to point to this editorial on RPG Codex concerning Gamescom.

I've always had a gut feeling that these conference previews all looked eerily similar regardless of the journalist who wrote them and the magazines who published them. After visiting Gamescom, there is not a shadow of doubt in my mind as to why.

The article mostly confirms a state of things I've long suspected, though some of the concrete examples (i.e. the complete lack of questions after game demonstrations) paint an even bleaker picture. It's a good read.
 

Abriael

Banned
Actually I suspect that either the writer has been into a string of coincidences mixed with lack of experience, or he's faking in order to make himself and his publication look better (IE: We ask questions and the others don't yada yada).

I've been to a ton of events like Gamescom, including this latest gamescom, and the occurrence in which none of the journos present at a presentation asks any question at all is VERY rare.

I've pretty much always seen at least a few, as much as time allowed (not MANY questions are allowed mind you, but time is time) after presentations and often even during (a lot of devs will tell you to interrupt them if you have a burning question).

Just as an example, I have an actual recording of a Forza 5 presentation with Dan Greenwalt from gamescom here and a video with InFamous' Nate Fox here.

I've seen a lot more of course, but those were the rare examples in which taping/filming was allowed.

Greenwalt and Fox are between the most question-friendly devs out there, mind you, but I can definitely say that he's closer to the rule than to the exception.

(PS If the mods have trouble with me posting my own link, feel free to remove it, I provided it just as an example to the topic)
 

Perkel

Banned
As the recent humongous IGN/GTAV thread shows, people still love a good games journalism debate. As such, I'd like to point to this editorial on RPG Codex concerning Gamescom.



The article mostly confirms a state of things I've long suspected, though some of the concrete examples (i.e. the complete lack of questions after game demonstrations) paint an even bleaker picture. It's a good read.

And this is why i prefer AngryJoe than almost any site.
 

Durante

Member
I've been to a ton of events like Gamescom, including this latest gamescom, and the occurrence in which none of the journos present at a presentation asks any question at all is VERY rare.

I've pretty much always seen at least a few, as much as time allowed, after presentation and often even during (a lot of devs will tell you to interrupt them if you have a burning question).

Just as an example, I have an actual recording of a Forza 5 presentation with Dan Greenwalt from gamescom here.
Well, the example in this case is Wasteland 2. I can well imagine more "mainstream" game journalists having questions about Forza 5 (console war ammunition that it is) than Wasteland 2. But maybe I'm just biased.

(Also note that in this case I believe the author is a volunteer, so there isn't really any incentive to prop up his own publication -- at least financially)

And since you specifically mention "as much as time allowed" -- that is something which is actually covered elsewhere in the article.
 

Abriael

Banned
Well, the example in this case is Wasteland 2. I can well imagine more "mainstream" game journalists having questions about Forza 5 (console war ammunition that it is) than Wasteland 2. But maybe I'm just biased.

(Also note that in this case I believe the author is a volunteer, so there isn't really any incentive to prop up his own publication -- at least financially)

Actually, I've been in the Wasteland 2 presentation as well. Guess what? Lots of Questions there too.

Unfortunately in that case I filmed only my own questions, so I can't provide actual evidence. you'll have to take my word for it, as I can prove only that *I* asked questions, but not only I wasn't the only one, but Brian Fargo and the rest of the devs present were between the most question-friendly devs at Gamescom, and were willing to answer not just about the game, but also about Kickstarter in general.

And not being paid doesn't really make someone immune from the desire of making his publication look better. Popularity and traffic still give you evident advantages. I'm not sure the writer of the original post is either reeeeeally (and statistically strangely) unlucky, trying to hype his site up, or simply a little biased, but I've been around trade shows for a LONG time, and my experience is very different.

And it's not just small and "hungry" writers that ask the questions mind you. This gamescom i was at a Ryse presentation, and there was just me and Polygon's Brian Crecente, so we had lots of space for questions. We literally double teamed the devs with a storm of questions, and Crecente definitely didn't ask less than I did.The convo actually ended up making the presentation go overtime and into lunch break by about 25 minutes with Microsoft's PRs ripping their hair off lol.

PS: About the time, the cases in which you're literally pushed out before you have the time to ask questions is VERY, VERY rare in my experience. At Gamescom the only case in which that happened to me was with EverQuest Next, as their PR was reeeeally in a hurry and Georgeson is long winded, but in the end Georgeson was still very available to chat outside after the presentation .
 

JDSN

Banned
The Wasteland 2 example just show a complete lack of ignorance on the project probably fueled by the fact that it wont get enough clicks based on the fact it isnt Call of Duty or something that you could turn into a clickbait headline.

I remember during the Hotline Miami thread saying that im sure journalists appreciate a list of banned questions, apparently this is true since all their shit is copypaste of buzzwords used by press releases.
 

Durante

Member
Andf it's not just small and "hungry" writers that ask the questions mind you. This gamescom i was at a Ryse presentation, and there was just me and Polygon's Brian Crecente, so we had lots of space for questions. We literally double teamed the devs with a storm of questions, and Crecente definitely didn't ask less than I did.
I have no problem at all believing that. Ryse is prime console war fodder. Any piece of previously unreleased information you have about it can be turned into a lucrative headline.
 

Abriael

Banned
I have no problem at all believing that. Ryse is prime console war fodder. Any piece of previously unreleased information you have about it can be turned into a lucrative headline.

Maybe, but that's definitely not the only case. That's a case in which there were only two writers and the presentation was followed by lunch break, so things weren't as time constricted, but again, in my experience questions do happen, and happen a lot, with big or small games and with journalists of all sizes.

Some don't ask questions, sure, but they're not the rule, and IMHO the article paints a very skewed picture.
 

jschreier

Member
"I went to an event and nobody asked questions except for me, therefore games journalism is broken."

can't we do any better than this? How does the writer know those were journalists? Or that they spoke English? Or that they don't write for fan sites? Or that they weren't saving their questions for private one-on-one interviews? Or that they were even planning on writing previews at all?

There are plenty of real problems in the world of gaming media, and this article touches upon none of them. It's like "My First Video Game Conference" combined with "Here's Why You Should Trust RPGCodex And Only RPGCodex."
 

Abriael

Banned
"I went to an event and nobody asked questions except for me, therefore games journalism is broken."

can't we do any better than this? How does the writer know those were journalists? Or that they spoke English? Or that they don't write for fan sites? Or that they weren't saving their questions for private one-on-one interviews? Or that they were even planning on writing previews at all?

There are plenty of real problems in the world of gaming media, and this article touches upon none of them. It's like "My First Video Game Conference" combined with "Here's Why You Should Trust RPGCodex And Only RPGCodex."

Exactly. That's the same impression I got from it. It may sound a little ruthless, but that's what I'd call a pretty faithful periphrasis of the message hidden in this article.

Only small thing I disagree with is that in my experience fansite writers ask even more questions.
 

Durante

Member
There are plenty of real problems in the world of gaming media, and this article touches upon none of them. It's like "My First Video Game Conference" combined with "Here's Why You Should Trust RPGCodex And Only RPGCodex."
I believe "My first video game conference" is actually a fantastic perspective to have for an article such as this. Both you and Abriael have doubtless been to a great many such conferences, which may make it harder for you to see the obvious issues with the entire format pointed out by this editorial.

Also, I don't think it helps that both of you focus on the small anecdote I picked in the OP, which is by no means representative of the article as a whole.
 

Grayman

Member
Maybe journalism is not the right descriptor for preview and review articles.The preview is marketing. The presenter of content is selling, they are not offering an opportunity for anything deeper.

Real criticism, explanations, or discovery would be done outside of the preview and review model.
 

jschreier

Member
Exactly. That's the same impression I got from it. It may sound a little ruthless, but that's what I'd call a pretty faithful periphrasis of the message hidden in this article.

Only small thing I disagree with is that in my experience fansite writers ask even more questions.

I don't mean to pick on fansites - there are plenty of hard-working people doing great stuff at volunteer sites. But someone who is at an event like Gamescom for fun can't be held to the same standard as someone who's there as a professional, and it'd be unfair to draw conclusions about professional games journalism based on what people from fansites are doing.

I believe "My first video game conference" is actually a fantastic perspective to have for an article such as this. Both you and Abriael have doubtless been to a great many such conferences, which may make it harder for you to see the obvious issues with the entire format pointed out by this editorial.

Also, I don't think it helps that both of you focus on the small anecdote I picked in the OP, which is by no means representative of the article as a whole.

I read the whole article - it reads like someone who is just discovering for the first time how strange and PR-crafted a games convention can be, and using that as an opportunity to write about how you should only trust him and his site and no other game journalists. I feel like I've seen this same thing written a thousand times before, on a thousand different blogs, all vying for your eyeballs.

Except... lots of people are very aware that the demos we see at conventions are all part of marketing plans, and lots of websites have specific policies about how to handle these events. We revisited ours earlier this year: http://kotaku.com/5985143/apologies-if-we-wasted-your-time-with-that-preview

Like in any other field, some writers are better than others, and it's up to each reader to find people and websites that they trust to report things fairly and honestly. When a site like RPGCodex writes a screed like this and positions themselves as The Only Outlet Worth Trusting by saying that game journalism sucks and every magazine article looks the same, it just comes across to me as disingenuous. If they brought up some specific examples - "here's site X and here's what they wrote and here's why they did it" - instead of using anecdotal evidence to lump everyone together, I imagine this would be far more interesting and far less like the same angry "don't trust them - trust us!" article I've read a hundred times before.
 

V_Arnold

Member
" and using that as an opportunity to write about how you should only trust him and his site and no other game journalists."

I never got that vibe from him. Seeing as you work at Kotaku, I understand if you feel that way, but I think that it is just your subconscious switchin the defensive on.

On contrast, our team (a hungarian gamer site) were in this gamescom and a few other gamescoms before, and the trend was similar that very few journalists asks questions (we were prepared with them, of course), and to add insult to injury, cant seem to play games like XCOM/Dark Souls/whatever on a decent level. I was not there with them, so I cant say this as an authorian fact, and I realize that it is subjective - and also not general reviewers fault -, but it shows that the modern gaming journalism is really specialized on the AAA "experiences", and not on stuff like Might and Magic IX, Wasteland, Dark Souls II or even X-Com.
 

nonadventurer

Neo Member
Good article, and I for one appreciate the "this is my first conference" perspective.

Also I don't think the author makes you want to only trust Rpgcodex and no one else; I didn't get that vibe from the article either. To me it feels more of an "outsider's" perspective on games journalism, which is a good thing to have alongside the chorus of the more "professional" and "mainstream" voices. Kinda like "indie" games journalism or something.
 

Durante

Member
jschreier, you are getting something entirely different out of the article from what I got. If I had to summarize the message, it would be "don't trust reporting from press conferences", not "only read RPGCodex". I don't know how familiar you are with the Codex, but I honestly believe you overestimate how much of a shit they give.

Good article, and I for one appreciate the "first is my first conference" perspective.

Also I don't think the author makes you want to only trust Rpgcodex and no one else; I didn't get that vibe from the article either. To me it feels more of an "outsider's" perspective on games journalism, which is a good thing to have alongside the chorus of the more "professional" and "mainstream" voices. Kinda like "indie" games journalism or something.
Exactly.
 

jschreier

Member
jschreier, you are getting something entirely different out of the article from what I got. If I had to summarize the message, it would be "don't trust reporting from press conferences", not "only read RPGCodex". I don't know how familiar you are with the Codex, but I honestly believe you overestimate how much of a shit they give.

Well, OK, then I think it's dishonest for this guy to write an article saying no press conference reporting should be trusted because he had a few bad experiences at Gamescom, and I hope that readers don't blindly believe what he has to say. Many writers work quite hard to ensure that they're reporting fairly and honestly and accurately - even at trade shows! - and my advice would be to trust the people who are totally candid about what they see and how they feel about it, not the people who "take a stand" about "video game journalism," like the politician telling you all politicians are corrupt but of course he's not one of Them.
 

Acosta

Member
I don't mean to pick on fansites - there are plenty of hard-working people doing great stuff at volunteer sites. But someone who is at an event like Gamescom for fun can't be held to the same standard as someone who's there as a professional, and it'd be unfair to draw conclusions about professional games journalism based on what people from fansites are doing.



I read the whole article - it reads like someone who is just discovering for the first time how strange and PR-crafted a games convention can be, and using that as an opportunity to write about how you should only trust him and his site and no other game journalists. I feel like I've seen this same thing written a thousand times before, on a thousand different blogs, all vying for your eyeballs.

Except... lots of people are very aware that the demos we see at conventions are all part of marketing plans, and lots of websites have specific policies about how to handle these events. We revisited ours earlier this year: http://kotaku.com/5985143/apologies-if-we-wasted-your-time-with-that-preview

Like in any other field, some writers are better than others, and it's up to each reader to find people and websites that they trust to report things fairly and honestly. When a site like RPGCodex writes a screed like this and positions themselves as The Only Outlet Worth Trusting by saying that game journalism sucks and every magazine article looks the same, it just comes across to me as disingenuous. If they brought up some specific examples - "here's site X and here's what they wrote and here's why they did it" - instead of using anecdotal evidence to lump everyone together, I imagine this would be far more interesting and far less like the same angry "don't trust them - trust us!" article I've read a hundred times before.

Jason, I think you are not reading the feature in a fair light, it doesn't read anything like " The Only Outlet Worth Trusting". Yes, it reads as "is my first conference" but that actually is nice because it's refreshing to see how alien is everything there for someone who is not used to how everything works.

I don't read it as an attack on videogames journalism, just a reminder that at the end gamescom or any others games conference is mostly composed of a bunch of tired developers and tired PRs speaking with tired journalist about bullet points because the guys from the studio have to do the same shit 10 times more in the same day, and the journalists have another 10 meetings to be and 10 stories to write after it. It may not be the case for Kotaku, I don't know, but everybody knows it is the case for most outlets.
 

Abriael

Banned
I believe "My first video game conference" is actually a fantastic perspective to have for an article such as this. Both you and Abriael have doubtless been to a great many such conferences, which may make it harder for you to see the obvious issues with the entire format pointed out by this editorial.

Umh, sorry, no. Experience doesn't suddenly make you blind. If any, it helps you see things more clearly.

On the other hand, the first impact with a trade show is most likely to overwhelm most inexperienced writers with the sensation of being big shots, now that they can go around waving a media badge and they're let into the "Sancta sanctorum".

In 16 years around this industry i've seen plenty writers at their first experience being influenced by that, and suddenly starting to think they're doing a better job than everyone else (unless they're having to cover the whole show by themselves, in which case they'll most often feel like crap, think they're falling behind everyone else and have a terrible experience as they drag themselves from appointment to appointment with no time to think/sleep/eat, but that's a different story lol), which definitely seems the case here.

The whole article may or may not do it intentionally, but it gives me the vibe i've seen countless times "video game journalism suck, but we're different", and that is very much akin to the just as usual "the game industry sucks, but we're different" message you read on 80% of kickstarter projects for instance.

In both cases, the intent is to sell one's product, one way or another.

In this case, I can count on my experience, and my experience tells me that wether he does it intentionally or not, the dude's wrong, or at least he generalizes WAY too much.

Jason made a good point, for instance. The writer in question had no way to know the circumstances of those around him. They may very well had an interview scheduled afterwards, and if I have an interview with a dev doing a presentation (which happens quite often), I'm not gonna elbow questions in during the presentation itself. I'll just mentally note what I want to ask, and ask it during the interview, where I can normally also tape or film.

Ultimately, this article drops a big blanket, and it's IMHO a very unfair, very biased blanket. I'll let you judge the reason behind it.

And I thought something that put me and Jason on the same side of a fence would never come. Guess there's always a first time, lol :D

I don't read it as an attack on videogames journalism, just a reminder that at the end gamescom or any others games conference is mostly composed of a bunch of tired developers and tired PRs speaking with tired journalist about bullet points

Which is indeed a big generalziation. As an aside, most of the times PR people don't speak. It's not their job to give presentations at trade shows like Gamscom. What most of them they'll do is sit on the sidelines and give a dev the evil eye when he speaks too much, and tap on the watch when time's up.

As for devs, a whole lot of them are very passionate about their job, and even if on Friday they may be a lot more tired than on Wednesday, that passion normally still shows.
 

Lancehead

Member
Jason Schreirer, Grunker has replied to you on RPG Codex. He would have replied here directly, but he doesn't have a paid email account to register here. So allow me post his reply.

Grunker said:
jschreier said:
When a site like RPGCodex writes a screed like this and positions themselves as The Only Outlet Worth Trusting

jschreier said:
it reads like someone [...] using that as an opportunity to write about how you should only trust him and his site and no other game journalists. I feel like I've seen this same thing written a thousand times before, on a thousand different blogs, all vying for your eyeballs.

I must apologize to every reader for this grave mistake. The last thing I want is to encourage people to trust the RPG Codex, and I would never call myself a 'game journalist.' God forbid. As I've said in the comments section on the Codex, we're just a bunch of volunteers, with no obligation to, or claims of, integrity. Trust us? Don't you ever. Trust us only as far as we seem to make sense.

The point I'm trying to make in the article is that people are supposed to be able to trust people like you, Jason Schreier, much more than guys like me. I'm just some random lame-ass doing this for kicks. While you, Jason, you are a serious professional with a tough job, and one that is important to our shared culture.

And that's the whole problem, isn't it? When people think they have as little reason to trust guys like you as they have to trust guys like me. When your integrity as a paid professional is just as questionable as the integrity of an anonymous amateur like me. And not because you are corrupt or take bribes or some conspiracy like that - I don't make such unfounded accusations because for all I know Jason, you are an honest guys who aspires to professionalism.

But because Jason, you report from conferences where everything you view is crafted with the intention of making it hard, if not impossible, for you to get a clear picture. Or, as I write in the piece:

Grunker said:
Both models of game demonstration allow little room for critical interviews or researching games in depth. For all intents and purposes, Gamescom is a seller's market, a place where the money finances an outlet for PR and community managers to communicate with reporters, who then communicate with potential customers. It is simply impossible for a journalist to get anything except the “official version” of game stories here. Almost nothing can be extracted except exactly what the PR departments want. It is a place where journalists get glances, which they will later name 'previews.'

So, I apologize if someone got the impression that I was making the Codex out to be a beacon of light, capable of divining truth about video games in settings where others are not. My point of "nobody can" would ring pretty hollow, were that my claim.

I also have little reason to "vy for your eyeballs" seeing as I am unpaid and write to a very specific audience.

jschreier said:
Many writers work quite hard to ensure that they're reporting fairly and honestly and accurately - even at trade shows!

My dear Schreier. I do not doubt that you are a hard working man who would love to report fairly and honestly and accurately. Even at trade shows. In fact, I think the majority of people who work in games journalism are quite passionate and knowledgable about games - why else would they seek this job? What is called into question here is not your good intentions. It is the fact that those intentions pave the way to critical thinking hell.

The very point of my editorial is that it is impossible to produce anything of much depth or quality based on a trip to a conference. I don't care if you won a pulitzer, you do not have the time nor the surroundings for good journalism at Gamescom. Gamescom is designed to make your job harder, it is designed to only show you what is essentially marketing, and its design shows how little respect these venues have for you. In sports, the journalists have booths with nice seats and free food, because they are the communicative link between the athletes and the audience, and the industry relies on them. In film, the work of critics is viewed with utmost scrutiny by their peers, and their integrity is often so unquestionable that major studios and directors fear the popular reviewers and their detailed analysis of their films, because it can make or break the box office in some cases. In real journalism, journalists are hailed with generous prizes for integrity and they have entire institutions devoted to secure journalistic standards.

In video games, you get to stand up on a cheap carpet in an industry hall the size of a major train station or sit in a crowded room and take notes about games shown in what amounts to elongated TV commercials. You and your craft are not taken seriously. You are laughed at by the people whose job you are supposed to, in Rab Florence's words, "make very challenging." If you do not take a stand, forgive me, but then I will not respect you. The industry takes the piss out of you and tramples you, yet you argue that everything is fine. You take shit no other industry of critics would accept.

In the end, you provide the damning piece of evidence yourself:

jschreier said:
Except... lots of people are very aware that the demos we see at conventions are all part of marketing plans, and lots of websites have specific policies about how to handle these events. We revisited ours earlier this year:http://kotaku.com/5985143/apologies-...h-that-preview
"Listen to me, a wise experienced journalist, o naive youngster from the Codex. We're not stupid. We know that previews are useless, and we know conferences are nothing but marketing ploys."

Well, mr. Schreier, that does beg the question... why do you keep reporting on them?

Here's the link to the reply: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...oes-to-write-itself.86114/page-7#post-2848061

Grunker is open to debate this topic, and the Codex welcomes you to register there to refute Grunker's arguments.
 

Zewp

Member
Jschreier, if you really think the Codex posted publicity, then you're sadly mistaken. It is a website infamous for being filled with trolls and many label it a cesspit. As far as I'm aware, Obsidian employees have a clause in their contract which states they're not allowed to even interact with RPGCodex. RPGCodex doesn't write articles such as this because they want you to read their site and their site alone. In fact, they don't even care if you read their site, because stuff you. RPGCodex writes for their target audience, which is the people of the RPGCodex forums.

But here's the thing. I'd read an RPGCodex article over an article from any other gaming publication any day of the week. Why? Because underneath the thick layers of trolling and cesspits, RPGCodex is actually filled with people who genuinely care about videogames. The volunteers who write for the site do so because they care about videogames. They don't care about 'making it big' as a journalist, because they're not going to do that from RPGCodex. That said, amateurs they may be, but I would read what they have to write over the sensationalist drivel spewed forth by sites such as Polygon or Kotaku any time, simply because their main motivation is not page hits.Now you've probably got a clever rebuttal to this, but it would be a waste of time for both of us to get into a debate over Kotaku. Suffice to say, I'm very familiar with Kotaku and what they try to pass off as journalism, so let's leave it at that.

All in all, I think you're missing a key point of Grunker's article here. I have no doubt you spend a lot of time reading fellow gaming news sites, but maybe you've simply become so accustomed to the way things are that you no longer see it the way a viewer sees it, but after a major event such as Gamescom there's really very little need to visit more than one site for news, because you're going to get roughly the exact same news from the majority of mainstream news outlets. As a reader, I often have to go digging around for obscure and niche sites to get unique/new views, news or insights on games and I think that's really rather sad.

In closing, I'd also like to say that I am saddened when the kneejerk reaction from games journalists such as yourself is to immediately go on the offensive and act affronted when met with criticism on your industry. Instead of getting uppity and defending your insistence that there's nothing wrong in the industry, you guys would spend your energy much better to evaluate the criticism properly and then use it as an opportunity to grow. Stop taking criticism such as the Codex article as personal attacks on your person and start seeing it for what it is- people who genuinely care about the videogame industry telling you what they think and feel is wrong in it. Who knows. You might just learn something.
 

Vindicis

Banned
Kotaku writers are NOT journalists. I don't understand why people keep making that mistake. Kotaku is a blog and as such they employ bloggers. If people would just accept this fact there would be far less rage about some silly revenue generating blog with it's bait click articles. As far as I'm concerned, there's no such thing as a "video game journalist". Walter Cronkite you folks are not.
 
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