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dampflokfreund · Jun 18, 2014

Schreier: I wanted to talk a little about the open world in the next Zelda game that you announced. I played Link Between Worlds, and I liked it very much, and it was very interesting in the way it changed things up and was non-linear in that you could rent items and choose which dungeons you wanted to go to in whichever order you wanted to go to them. But for Link Between Worlds, in each of the dungeons, you could really only use that one specific item that you needed to bring into the dungeons, and there weren't the multi-item, really complicated, difficult puzzles that other Zelda games often have.

I'm wondering—if the new Zelda is also non-linear, will you run into the same problem? How do you make a Zelda game that is non-linear and also has those kind of difficult dungeons that require you to use multiple items and are very complex and complicated and interesting?

Aonuma: I hadn't actually thought that because there was only one item per dungeon that puzzle-solving was made simpler because of that, and that in contrast multiple-item puzzle-solving was more complicated, so I guess I'll keep that in mind.

http://kotaku.com/the-big-zelda-interview-e3-2014-1592548169/all

Another interesting quote from that big E3 interview and for me, the most important one. I'm a bit worried about Zelda U now if Aonuma doesn't even know one of the most obvious problems in ALBW.

And_Gignac · Jun 18, 2014

Zelda U confirmed for easy as fukc.

gngf123 · Jun 18, 2014

Come on Aonuma. You were doing so well for the past week, don't fuck it up now.

Here's hoping he is aware now and still has time to come up with a fix before Zelda U hits.

sega4ever · Jun 18, 2014

so there is less hand holding because its already set on easy mode?

thecouncil · Jun 18, 2014

Just make some dungeons harder than others. Or require multiple items to enter. Non linearity doesn't mean every dungeon has to be easy, it just means you can attempt to beat any one of the dungeons first.

Holy Order Sol · Jun 18, 2014

Is it opposite day?

James Scott · Jun 18, 2014

That's how you deal with having the game be non-linear, pretty hard to fix that unless they give you all the items at the beginning, which probably isn't the best idea either. I was really worried about it before LBW came out, but I found the dungeons to be just fine. Multi-item dungeons returning would be cool, or items could have several uses to solve a puzzles too.

Neiteio · Jun 18, 2014

The dungeons in ALBW weren't "simpler" because of the one item. Nearly all of them had other mechanisms in place that were used in tandem with the key item you brought and your ability to merge into walls. Like luring the Wallmaster in Skull Woods into toggling switches, collapsing floors or hitting out-of-reach enemies. The dungeons were still perfectly complex, especially with all of the ways wall-merging played into each room. They just seemed "shorter" on the whole because you already had the main item so they weren't broken up into a "before" and "after." They were just one unbroken string of beautifully crafted puzzles.

chickdigger802 · Jun 18, 2014

scheier saving the next zelda.

linko9 · Jun 18, 2014

That's pretty concerning if he really never realized that. That said, there was some other interview where he made it clear that parts of the world (and hopefully also dungeons) would in fact be inaccessible without certain items. I think the problem was the item rental system; as long as you're still finding items out in the world and in dungeons, I think it will solve a lot of the problems of ALBW. I'd really like to see them focus on making puzzles that can be solved in different ways; maybe it's somewhat straightforward if you have the hookshot, but you can also find a way to progress using only other items if you're clever enough. Try to strike a balance between having lots of areas accessible from the get-go, and rewarding players for getting new items.

LiK · Jun 18, 2014

He didn't know? What?

Neiteio · Jun 18, 2014

I think it's worth noting that ALBW, pretty much more than any other Zelda, made incredibly extensive use of its central gimmick (in this case, wall-merging) in nearly every room of every dungeon. That alone provided for a great deal of complexity that more than offset the use of one item per dungeon.

rjc571 · Jun 18, 2014

Since when did Zelda games have complex puzzles that required the use of multiple items? I thought everyone always complained that the items in Zelda games never get used outside of the dungeons where they're first introduced.

Neiteio · Jun 18, 2014

rjc571 said:
Since when did Zelda games have complex puzzles that required the use of multiple items? I thought everyone always complained that the items in Zelda games never get used outside of the dungeons where they're first introduced.

I'm trying to think of good examples of using multiple items per puzzle myself.

You don't need multiple items for complexity. Room layout, finding the right order and approach, incorporating gimmicks (I.E. wall-merging), and utilizing the mechanisms in the room (special switches, etc) are all more than enough.

wrowa · Jun 18, 2014

ALBW's dungeons were simpler because they've been designed to be short. They deliberately included a lot of dungeons in the game (12 compared to the usual ~8), but made each one shorter. Probably to make it easier to play the game on the go - it's a handheld game, after all.

Regiruler · Jun 18, 2014

rjc571 said:
Since when did Zelda games have complex puzzles that required the use of multiple items? I thought everyone always complained that the items in Zelda games never get used outside of the dungeons where they're first introduced.

Skyward Sword actually expanded upon the items fairly well IMO from what I remember.

Nickle · Jun 18, 2014

As long as their is no rental system and we get some items inside the dungeons, then it could work out. I just hope that finding the dungeons is much more challenging then in ALBW.

LTWheels · Jun 18, 2014

This is why a felt that Link between Worlds was disappointing. The dungeons were too easy and as they were designed with one item in mind, it did not take advantage of the item renting system. These two parts always felt at conflict with me.

The item renting system should have opened up opportunities for dungeons having different puzzle solutions, or requiring multiple items to solve, as all items are available from the beginning. The game might as well have been structured that you found the item inside the dungeon, as that was pretty much the only item you would use for the rest of the dungeon.

Also the item upgrade system was worthless as the upgrades weren't required to finish the dungeons. The only items worth upgrading were 'combat' items like the boomerang.

Mauricio_Magus · Jun 18, 2014

A really easy way to make a gamer know if a zone should not be approached is by showing danger in some way, put some difficult minions or traps that make the player think "I should probably come over here later on", and if the player wants a challenge, they can go ahead and try.

When it comes to dungeons, it's quite a dilemma, as the item progression by nature is linear, even if ALBW did work around it with the shop system.

Mr-Joker · Jun 18, 2014

chickdigger802 said:
scheier saving the next zelda.

Indeed, I really disliked the dungeon in Link Between World which really dampened my experience of the game.

I even complained about this in the Club Nintendo survey, is Aonuma saying that Nintendo don't read them?

Please don't mess up Zelda Wii U, Aonuma.

ignata · Jun 18, 2014

This is my worry. I really enjoyed A Link Between Worlds, but their method of making everything open with the whole item rental thing isn't something I want to see repeated. I'm fine with getting some distance in a dungeon and then have to leave cause I don't have an item. That's part of exploration. I just want an exploration based Zelda game again.

mrklaw · Jun 18, 2014

I don't see why non linear means they have to abandoned their dungeon system. LTTP is arguably open world (albeit 2d) but areas are blocked off with obstacles. You could do something similar with overpowered enemies (eg dark souls graveyard skeletons at the start of the game)

Even if you do allow people into a dungeon, you can still have item requirements which either prevent you getting to the boss too early, or mean you won't find hidden treasure etc

Htown · Jun 18, 2014

I'm sorry, I was under the impression people liked ALBW. Guess I missed the backlash train, because all of a sudden Aonuma is a moron for not realizing how dumb that game was.

emb · Jun 18, 2014

Props to Jason for doing a really nice job with the interview. It seems like I've seen three or four different topics on it already.

I didn't feel like LBW was overly simple, but I would have liked to get more use out of some items. Luckily most were at least fun to use for fighting.

I'd honestly like to see the balance closer to Zelda 1, or Super Metroid. Meaning, there's clearly a suggested order, but you can break from it if you feel like it. Having an obviously intended order is part of what makes going out of order so fun.

watershed · Jun 18, 2014

I thought people enjoyed ALBW's puzzles but saw potential for more. Now it sounds like we're saying the puzzles were bad or boring because they were too easy. I thought they were great and a lot of fun.

dampflokfreund · Jun 18, 2014

Htown said:
I'm sorry, I was under the impression people liked ALBW. Guess I missed the backlash train, because all of a sudden Aonuma is a moron for not realizing how dumb that game was.

Most people like the game but that doesn't mean you can't say the negatives. From mistakes developers should learn and fix in the new game.

Effect · Jun 18, 2014

wrowa said:
ALBW's dungeons were simpler because they've been designed to be short. They deliberately included a lot of dungeons in the game (12 compared to the usual ~8), but made each one shorter. Probably to make it easier to play the game on the go - it's a handheld game, after all.

In addition to that are the challenge caves that require certain items but also that you had to have a nice bit of skill at using them in order to clear the area. The design of a handheld game shouldn't be used to infer how the console game is going to be turn out. The designs are different on purpose to suit the platform. In addition to that that's comparing a 2D game with a 3D game which play differently from the start. I've always felt the 2D Zelda games were just easier compared to the 3D games simply due to how they control. ALBW didn't feel any easier compare to past 2D Zelda games, ALTTP included. I think people need to think about that.

Natureboy99 · Jun 18, 2014

If it was like the first Zelda, you could enter some dungeons but they would be really hard without certain items. It was also just hard to survive. I would prefer a Zelda like that. Non item specific puzzles with hard combat. Plenty of games have done it, even Zelda. Make puzzle room that require positioning statues just right, or pushing blocks in the right order, or finding the release switch before the spiked walls come in. There are infinite puzzles and traps to be made that require nothing more than links hands and feet. Items would just give you options or shortcuts, or statistical upgrades like stronger armor and weapons.

Busaiku · Jun 18, 2014

Htown said:
I'm sorry, I was under the impression people liked ALBW. Guess I missed the backlash train, because all of a sudden Aonuma is a moron for not realizing how dumb that game was.

Pretty sure I wasn't the only one complaining in the OT.

Green Mamba · Jun 18, 2014

ALBW's dungeons weren't less complex, they were just too short. The amount of items used in a single dungeon doesn't arbitrarily define how complex it is.

Mr. Saturn · Jun 18, 2014

Saying the dungeons in ALBW are simpler is one thing, but I don't necessarily think it's due to only using one primary item in the dungeons. I mean after all a tool can have multiple uses, so hopefully if they go in that direction (needing only 1 main item for the dungeons) the tools will be designed with that in mind.

Twilight Princess had some fairly intricate dungeons and they primarily used only the dungeon item, hell I remember that being a criticism against the game, that the items were underutilized. Remember the spinner from arbiter's grounds? After that dungeon the number of times you had to use the spinner again could be counted on hand.

Not to mention it's possible to create good puzzles even in Zelda games without the use of any items at all, take for example the master sword puzzle from TP, the only tool you needed for that puzzle was logic or at a least a patience for trial and error.

At the very least Aounuma is aware of the situation and will hopefully take this all into consideration, and if Zelda wii u ends up having simpler dungeons compared to the past well hopefully the game will make up for it in some other way but if not, there's always the next Zelda title on Nintnedo's next console lol. (Since I doubt we'll be getting a 2nd Zelda on Wii U.

Psycho_Mantis · Jun 18, 2014

How can you not have thought of that.......

dave is ok · Jun 18, 2014

I haven't finished the game yet, but it's annoying how every time I need to use a bomb there is a bomb flower there anyway

dampflokfreund · Jun 18, 2014

Mr. Saturn said:
At the very least Aounuma is aware of the situation and will hopefully take this all into consideration, and if Zelda wii u ends up having simpler dungeons compared to the past well hopefully the game will make up for it in some other way but if not, there's always the next Zelda title on Nintnedo's next console lol. (Since I doubt we'll be getting a 2nd Zelda on Wii U.

Even less complex than Skyward Sword's? Oh no I would hate that. I breezed through them without thinking once. I want Zelda U to really bomb my mind. At least make some dungeons as difficult as previous water temples.

Mr. Saturn · Jun 18, 2014

dampflokfreund said:
Even less complex than Skyward Sword's? Oh no I would hate that. I breezed through them without thinking once. I want Zelda U to really bomb my mind. At least make some dungeons as difficult as previous water temples.

I hope the dungeons are complex as well, and maybe Aounuma's comment is worrying, but luckily the game is still in development, if it were only 3 months away from release it would be too late. Thankfully we're not in that situation.

Mr-Joker · Jun 18, 2014

watershed said:
I thought people enjoyed ALBW's puzzles but saw potential for more. Now it sounds like we're saying the puzzles were bad or boring because they were too easy. I thought they were great and a lot of fun.

In my case the dungeon were boring since all you needed was the dungeon item to get in the dungeon and merging in the wall, which was repeated in every dungeon.

I preferred the old Zelda traditional dungeon than the one in Link Between World.

Waylon Drums · Jun 18, 2014

How hard do people work to find fault with something? Good lord.

TheSpaceBetween · Jun 18, 2014

rjc571 said:
Since when did Zelda games have complex puzzles that required the use of multiple items? I thought everyone always complained that the items in Zelda games never get used outside of the dungeons where they're first introduced.

Skyward Sword was actually full of them. Maybe not single puzzles, but rather larger chunks of gameplay that had you switching things up. The best examples would be nightfall on Eldin Volcano when your equipment is stolen, navigating the terrain while the minecart carries the timeshift stone on your way to resurrecting the Thunder Dragon, and the entirety of the Sky Keep.

dampflokfreund · Jun 18, 2014

Mr. Saturn said:
I hope the dungeons are complex as well, and maybe Aounuma's comment is worrying, but luckily the game is still in development, if it were only 3 months away from release it would be too late. Thankfully we're not in that situation.

Yeah, to be honest, that's why I started this topic, hopefully Aonuma reads it.

K' Dash · Jun 18, 2014

He's aware now.

Servbot24 · Jun 18, 2014

It's been quite a long time since Zelda dungeons have required more than one item, hasn't it?

Falawful · Jun 18, 2014

I wonder if they could set up a mechanic where you could have a bookmark for every dungeon that would allow you to leave at any point and then pick up right where you left off.

Like, if you were to start a dungeon and then get stuck halfway through because you're missing something, you could set a warp point at that spot, leave and go find the missing item, then return to the dungeon and use the mechanic to warp back to exactly where you were. It'd be like a self-contained Farore's Wind for each dungeon, make it a song that you play in front of a tablet at the entrance or something like that.

I can't think of any other ways to strike a balance between the two methods of item progression. Something like that could avoid both a vapid rental system and the frustration of restarting dungeons due to lack of equipment.

CrisKre · Jun 18, 2014

I just absolutely LOVED ALBW. I didn´t find the dungeons lacking at all.

sonto340 · Jun 18, 2014

The dungeons in ALBW completely had an order.
You're not bound to it, you can tackle them in any order, but there is 100% a varience in difficulty. I remember specifically trying to take on death mountain first once you get to then second set of dungeons, and it being way harder than I was ready for. Turns out its the last suggested dungeon. Well oops.

UberTag · Jun 18, 2014

Plenty of non-linear games out there that don't mandate the game's dungeons all being set at easy mode.
Hell, you can even find this is in Nintendo's own games in development like Xenoblade.
You can walk up to that giant L45 monster that towers above you right from the start of the game but he's going to swat you away like the fly you are.

TangoAlphaLima · Jun 18, 2014

Schreier is on point, but I think that focusing on the one item versus multiple item discussion point simplifies the problem too much. ALBW also had the issue of no difficulty increase for the dungeons because they could be tackled in any order. This meant that by the time you got to the end and had a bunch of powerups and items, the dungeons were simply too easy, irrespective of the lack of complex puzzle solving.

LegendofLex · Jun 18, 2014

Focusing on the items and puzzles is the wrong move.

What they should have focused on was the flat difficulty, which meant that having more items made the dungeons become easier as you went (rather than having more items helping you conquer the harder dungeons).

What's more, the "complexity" of dungeons in the older games was always about the complexity of the map - that is, how hard you had to try to figure out how to get to the end - not the number of items it required you to use.

Suggesting that non-linearity in any way makes the item usage less "interesting" is problematic because the problem is that the more focus is placed on using the items to solve puzzles, the less "interesting" the items (and the dungeons) become. The items were much more interesting when there were tons of emergent uses for them beyond the "puzzles."

dampflokfreund · Jun 18, 2014

How do you guys like that idea I found in the comment's section of the article?

I think one way to achieve multi item puzzles is to have a puzzle at the start of any given dungeon that requires all items you'll need further in as a sort of stop to keep you from getting too deep only to find out you're missing an item you need.

So every dungeon has a unique dungeon item but there are also many items that can be found in the overworld and these overworld items can be used in the dungeons which will like he said checked at the entrance, and these dungeon items you find in the dungeons can be used on many different ways on the overworld to make sure every items is used often enough and make dungeon order still non linear.

nckillthegrimace · Jun 18, 2014

Good question, Jason.

Aonuma's answer is appalling, however, and now I'm even more concerned for the new Zelda.

jblank83 · Jun 18, 2014

So make combat more challenging, item gate some areas in Metroid fashion, and/or make exiting a currently unsolvable dungeon easy via some sort of item.

Problem solved.

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