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Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 15-21 | I did the math; it came out to 500,000

It's not analog movement but don't 3D games like Tekken/DOA/Soulcalibur have more complex movement? EXVS has movement in full 3D more or less and its probably the most important part of the game.

What would be the benefit of analog movement in 2D games? I haven't played smash so I honestly have no idea what the answer to this question is.

Well for example, in Smash instead of having L/M/H mapped to separate buttons the strength of your normals and certain special moves is determined by how far you pull the analog stick (this is only about 40% accurate so Smash players don't jump down my throat for it). Analog controls also influences certain things like knockback which does not have an exact equivalent with digital controls.

As for the benefits they may confer to 2D games, I dunno, maybe have some kind of input assist? This is complete conjecture but it might be easier to go "oh that wasn't a complete HCB but close enough" with analog controls than digital ones.
 

isamu

OMFG HOLY MOTHER OF MARY IN HEAVEN I CANT BELIEVE IT WTF WHERE ARE MY SEDATIVES AAAAHHH
Check out this channel too. Not NEC but there's a lot of high level Vampire Savior on there.

http://www.twitch.tv/rotanibor/profile

I didn't see VS during NEC. If you're just looking for high level Vampire Savior, here's the Top 8 from Evo 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WPAJJCuOWo

Also here's the Top 8 from UFGTX this year: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlJ7zgDywLTmFerhKy39g_3b9eMyYRS8Q

VS Top 8s from past Evos and VS online tourneys can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/user/ROTANIBOR/videos


MUCH appreciated guys. Will defintely check all of those out asap!
 

Kimosabae

Banned
What would be the benefit of analog movement in 2D games?

No one knows, exactly. It's a point of experimentation for the genre. It doesn't have to refer to just movement, either.

In Melee, analog controls mostly come into play with the Wavedashing technique and Shielding. The former is essentially a way to control how far you do a SF-style dash forward or backwards. The latter effects various aspects of defensive pressure (Holding shield more lightly provides more protection in terms of area but less in terms of strength and stability (which can in turn effect positioning)).

Imagine a 2D fighter where you could not only dash forward, but control how far you dash forwards or backwards instead of quantized distances. You essentially control your character like a platformer character, with the exception that the characters are always facing each other. Energy is conserved when jumping, and you can dash jump during any infinitesimal value in your dash between 1 - 10. Corner pressure is evolved to moving in and out of your opponents' space fluidly, instead of committing completely anytime you want to close/increase distance, using quantized dashes. Walking is treated just the same and isn't a static value in terms of speed.

How about the strength of an attack being determined by the strength of a button press, or the strength of your defense being determined by similar mechanics.

These are just the obvious ideas given my background, but I think there's a large space and potential for fighting games there that is going untapped due to it's arcade roots. Smash is as accessible as it is, because it ditched those roots with its controls. But even if you want to keep the motions, there's just much more analog could be doing.
 
It'd be so dope if Capcom had the artistic sense to make the background objects such as tables and chairs, or traffic cones, etc., wobble or even topple over from the shockwave associated with a character initiating instinct. This has to happen.




Yeah, I figured you had to be. Only a programmer would break a fighting game's depth down to inputs/actions per frames per second. But that's what true depth/complexity is, in competition and games, right? What are the potential set of possible outcomes in a given time interval?

Analog movement is more complex that digital movement (Smash WiiU vs. Street Fighter IV) while not necessarily being an aspect contributing to a more complex design, overall.

(We really need a fighting game not called Smash that utilizes analog controls, btw).

But yeah, I think that post actually moves the discussion forward a bit. Great stuff.




Also, this sooooo much. Dumbing down your design isn't the answer. You want to show people the value in investing time and patience (and in some cases, money) to grow within the medium of playing your game. Social factors like money, power, and status, are all motivating factors, which is why highlighting the competitive scene is so important. Committing yourself to something is an emotional sell; ostentatious single player modes and tutorials won't do this.

As has been said before, I expect SFV to find a way to push this forward.

I think we're more or less on the same wavelength here, but I still believe that improving tools -- improving QoL for people playing a given game -- can lead to players investing themselves more. If tutorials don't at least help move people, we just haven't made them good enough or accessible enough yet.

Me fighting with the controls in Xrd is exactly the reason why I consider giving up the game multiple times. Even if a person places some value on competition and the fun that can be derived from it, that might not be enough to overcome the time investment demanded by 2d fighting games.

Not to mention that fighting games aren't the only competitive games and that first person shooters and games like DOTA/LOL are rather successful.

EXVS is far simpler and less demanding in terms of execution compared to fighting games. To answer your question where does the depth come from if not overly complex and rigid controls? It's a 4 player game so that instantly leads to more possible complex situations than a constant 1v1.

Just throwing that out there. Clearly I don't value the same things that others in here value, so I can't possibly agree with your opinions. So I am not being intentionally belligerent, proper communication is simply impossible when there is no shared frame of reference.

Well, honestly if you're posting on these forums talking about fighting games, I don't think we're coming at terribly different angles here. And I did bring up the fact that several other competitive genres see more success, despite being similarly demanding on a technical level.

And I think? I get where you're coming from regarding EXVS. The game is still going to have a disproportionate punishment for making the wrong decision at the wrong time at higher levels of competition, but you're saying that the burden on whether a player makes the correct decision or not comes more from s/he being able to read the situation between his/her allies and enemies on the field rather than missing a physical input. Is that correct?


No one knows, exactly. It's a point of experimentation for the genre. It doesn't have to refer to just movement, either.

In Melee, analog controls mostly come into play with the Wavedashing technique and Shielding. The former is essentially a way to control how far you do a SF-style dash forward or backwards. The latter effects various aspects of defensive pressure (Holding shield more lightly provides more protection in terms of area but less in terms of strength and stability (which can in turn effect positioning)).

Imagine a 2D fighter where you could not only dash forward, but control how far you dash forwards or backwards instead of quantized distances. You essentially control your character like a platformer character, with the exception that the characters are always facing each other. Energy is conserved when jumping, and you can dash jump during any infinitesimal value in your dash between 1 - 10. Corner pressure is evolved to moving in and out of your opponents' space fluidly, instead of committing completely anytime you want to close/increase distance, quickly, using quantized dashes. Walking is treated just the same and isn't a static value in terms of speed.

How about the strength of an attack being determined by the strength of a button press, or the strength of your defense being determined by similar mechanics.

This are just the obvious obvious ideas given my background, but I think there's a large space and potential for fighting games there that is going untapped due to it's arcade roots. Smash is as accessible as it is, because it ditched those roots with its controls. But even if you want to keep the motions, there's just much more analog could be doing.

Honestly, if Valve ever made a fighting game, I'd expect them to pull heavily from this playbook. It might give some real meaning to those haptic feedback gamepads they're making to go with Steamboxes.
 
And I think? I get where you're coming from regarding EXVS. The game is still going to have a disproportionate punishment for making the wrong decision at the wrong time at higher levels of competition, but you're saying that the burden on whether a player makes the correct decision or not comes more from s/he being able to read the situation between his/her allies and enemies on the field rather than missing a physical input. Is that correct?

More or less. The 2v2 dynamic is really important as a team of weaker players can beat a team of stronger players if they work together since 2v2 can easily become 2v1. I am not saying that it's impossible to screw up inputs or that there are no technically complex characters but being able to play well together is key and more important.

To me it feels like EXVS is well designed because the controls are really simple so the the major learning curve is about how and where to move, when to attack and when not to. It feels like the design forces you to learn more by playing the game with minimal training mode tax.

Edit: It's hard for me to be sure though. The north american community is still rather small and I got started when a lot of other people did so I got to learn by playing. I am not sure how much of a grind is demanded now by anyone trying to get in.

Well, honestly if you're posting on these forums talking about fighting games, I don't think we're coming at terribly different angles here. And I did bring up the fact that several other competitive genres see more success, despite being similarly demanding on a technical level.
By this I meant some people might value being "competitive" and tournament play more than I do. I think its interesting to see the game at "highest skill level" being played. However I'd rather play games than watch someone play and I think they should be fun first and foremost.
 

zlatko

Banned
FGW|DahBlownUp

FGW|DahSaltyTears

I hope Xrd has a big following in the scene. This game is legit good imo. May be contender for my favorite fighter since SF4.
 
Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 22-28 | Xrd time's the charm

For all those people who are probably picking up Xrd after dipping into and out of GG over the years.
 

Azure J

Member
FGW | Dahstroyed

c'mon, xrd needs a title

If Shouta didn't come in and put his foot down, this would be pretty cool.

FGW | He. Has. Fucking. Xrd.

This one is subtle enough to work. It also acts as a good summation of us poor preorder placing suckers who are still waiting on their LE to be delivered. :lol

FGW: On the Xrd days of Christmas

This one however works without bringing any RIP Dah into play.

I think I'll go with FGW | On the Xrd day of Christmas
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
FGW: On the Xrd days of Christmas
FGW | Merry Xrdmas
I like these. Gonna have to vote for the former, though.

Fighting Games Weekly | Dec 22-28 | Xrd time's the charm

For all those people who are probably picking up Xrd after dipping into and out of GG over the years.
This is also relevant because it's Xrd's 3rd attempt to snatch a thread title after being denied the last two weeks.
 
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