HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Does Adam Baldwin seriously just think this is a disagreement about opinions? Like, he can't be that stupid, right?
Did he seriously just go "you deserve it if it happens"?
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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014
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Does Adam Baldwin seriously just think this is a disagreement about opinions? Like, he can't be that stupid, right?
Did he seriously just go "you deserve it if it happens"?
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
Shitheart going hard on the ignorance
I am wrestling with a severe bout of cynicism after reading tweets from gamergate people (directed at me and directed at nothing in particular) that all seem to echo the same response: you can't blame the entire movement for a few bad people.
The GamersGate method of campaigning relies completely in strength of anonymous numbers. The "few bad people" argument cannot logically apply here. Either accept responsibility for bad things that get done in your name, or completely restructure your campaign. A Twitter hashtag campaign, or a 4chan style anon board can never claim the moral high ground, no matter how well intentioned.
You know what would be cool? Getting back my member status. Especially as people like SETH ROGAN are talking out about this shit.
Dude, you got juniored for making a topic outside the general, not for opposing GamerGate.
Maybe you mean GerstmannGate? The only VideoGate worthy of being a _Gate?
There is literally nothing even tangentially related to video games worthy of a _gate.
That's the bonkersest part of this whole thing. #gamergate is so many millions of times removed from any stakes worth a shit, it's completely baffling that they escalate to terrorism like they do.
Like... even IF all of the allegations about Zoe Quinn were true: so fucking what? Hypothetically, some small number of people were "duped" into downloading and playing a game that cost them zero dollars... Sarkeesian has neither the power to nor the interest in actually affecting "censorship" of games. At the most, her videos maybe convince some developers to consider their scripts somewhat differently--which, as we've seen in the Last of Us, works out pretty damn well qua the world having more quality games.
deranged_666
Member
Posted an article about the terror threats on my FB account along with my disapproval of them, was met by a couple of my friends coming out in support of the GG movement and how she was "asking for them" and "they benefit her because she can now play the damsel in distress trope she rallies so hard against".
Kinda disgusted with my friends right now. You know, you read that kinda shit on Twitter or Kotaku comments and you don't think these people are actually real. But they are. And they're some of my friends. And it depresses the shit out of me.
Kinda disgusted with my friends right now. You know, you read that kinda shit on Twitter or Kotaku comments and you don't think these people are actually real. But they are. And they're some of my friends. And it depresses the shit out of me.
Neoriceisgood
Member
I thought it was generally understood that the best way to fight corruption is to follow the "Trail of no money".
There is literally nothing even tangentially related to video games worthy of a _gate.
That's the bonkersest part of this whole thing. #gamergate is so many millions of times removed from any stakes worth a shit, it's completely baffling that they escalate to terrorism like they do.
Like... even IF all of the allegations about Zoe Quinn were true: so fucking what? Hypothetically, some small number of people were "duped" into downloading and playing a game that cost them zero dollars... Sarkeesian has neither the power to nor the interest in actually affecting "censorship" of games. At the most, her videos maybe convince some developers to consider their scripts somewhat differently--which, as we've seen in the Last of Us, works out pretty damn well qua the world having more quality games.
Shhh, no. It's censorship.
The disproportional anger is really something. And very much imagined. What they are really fighting is the feeling of being vilified, silenced and told that they're wrong.
Even though, in a lot of ways, they have proven that they are very wrong. I WISH that wasn't the conclusive findings, but holy cow. U__U
I still see a lot of people that treat #gamergate as synonymous with 'gamers' so every time someone says they are against #gamergate they react like people are against gamers. I hate this. We are all gamers.
I wish the tag had been, I dunno, #GamersAgainstGamerGate or something. I'm such a huge gamer, always have been, always will be, and the single thing making me not like 'gamer culture' right now IS gamergate.
I wish the tag had been, I dunno, #GamersAgainstGamerGate or something. I'm such a huge gamer, always have been, always will be, and the single thing making me not like 'gamer culture' right now IS gamergate.
Total Biscuit's latest take.
I get what he's saying, but I feel like it's far too late to take the "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. The toxicity has grown to an unstable level, especially with people like Milo and Adam Baldwin continuing to feed the beast.
Here is some advice of what to do if you receive a death threat via Twitter or email. I give this from the position of someone who received death threats on a monthly basis, of varying degrees and is as of yet, not actually dead. Unfortunately, any kind of online presence comes with it the possibility that someone will do something stupid. It can be for any reason, even the most innocuous. It can be for no reason at all. People act in ways online they never would in real life and way exactly that is is not yet fully understood. Here's what we haven't done however.
Do not publicize the threat. This is advice given by law enforcement agencies for a couple of reasons. There is no actual benefit to publicizing the threat. People online can't protect you if the threat is real, telling them serves no practical purpose. If the threat is real, then it is designed to terrify you, by posting the threat and acknowledging it publicly, you hand victory to the person who sent it. If it is merely a stupid troll, then once again you hand victory to them by giving them attention. The only reliable way to deal with unpleasant people online is to starve them of oxygen and the attention they crave.
I get what he's saying, but I feel like it's far too late to take the "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. The toxicity has grown to an unstable level, especially with people like Milo and Adam Baldwin continuing to feed the beast.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
You should start one. If I used twitter, I'd totally join you.I still see a lot of people that treat #gamergate as synonymous with 'gamers' so every time someone says they are against #gamergate they react like people are against gamers. I hate this. We are all gamers.
I wish the tag had been, I dunno, #GamersAgainstGamerGate or something. I'm such a huge gamer, always have been, always will be, and the single thing making me not like 'gamer culture' right now IS gamergate.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Total Biscuit's latest take.
I get what he's saying, but I feel like it's far too late to take the "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. The toxicity has grown to an unstable level, especially with people like Milo and Adam Baldwin continuing to feed the beast.
Eugh. I know he thinks he's giving friendly advice, but this comes off as "Be strong, like me, and everything will be fine."
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Total Biscuit's latest take.
Here is some advice of what to do if you receive a death threat via Twitter or email. I give this from the position of someone who received death threats on a monthly basis, of varying degrees and is as of yet, not actually dead. Unfortunately, any kind of online presence comes with it the possibility that someone will do something stupid. It can be for any reason, even the most innocuous. It can be for no reason at all. People act in ways online they never would in real life and way exactly that is is not yet fully understood. Here's what we haven't done however.
Do not publicize the threat. This is advice given by law enforcement agencies for a couple of reasons. There is no actual benefit to publicizing the threat. People online can't protect you if the threat is real, telling them serves no practical purpose. If the threat is real, then it is designed to terrify you, by posting the threat and acknowledging it publicly, you hand victory to the person who sent it. If it is merely a stupid troll, then once again you hand victory to them by giving them attention. The only reliable way to deal with unpleasant people online is to starve them of oxygen and the attention they crave.
First, the reason "People act in ways online they never would in real life" is that people have somehow convinced themselves it's not "real life." It is real life, the people you are talking to are real living people. The whole internet is not real life needs to go away. It's completely real. All this does is dehumanize other people, which is the exact opposite of what such a huge means of communication should do.
Second, the whole "suffer in silence cause nobody wants to hear about it" bit is getting old.
Does Adam Baldwin seriously just think this is a disagreement about opinions? Like, he can't be that stupid, right?
Did he seriously just go "you deserve it if it happens"?
Adam's a piece of shit. More as it develops...
I dunno TB. These women manage to make even the most rational people online break down into maniacs. This isn't normal troll behavior. If Anita's plan was to try to end sexism in the gamer sphere...then bringing awareness to the gendered harassment and hate campaigns (And there have been many) would be a relevant part of the sexism thing, right?
No one likes the bully. But no one likes the victim either.Second, the whole "suffer in silence cause nobody wants to hear about it" is getting old.
Neoriceisgood
Member
"I get death threats every month"
"they go away if you don't give them attention"
I see, I see.
"they go away if you don't give them attention"
I see, I see.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Does Adam Baldwin seriously just think this is a disagreement about opinions? Like, he can't be that stupid, right?
Did he seriously just go "you deserve it if it happens"?
Seems like it. And what the hell did Baldwin mean by "LE" in that tweet?
skullmuffins
Banned
Dude, let it go. It was a dumb move to make a thread complaining about the mods locking your other #GG thread and I don't think posts like these help your case.You know what would be cool? Getting back my member status. Especially as people like SETH ROGAN are talking out about this shit.
I'm not saying all of you are harassing women or consciously supporting harassment and death threats, but you're feeding in to a movement and culture that does. You're giving it your sign off and allowing them to use your name and existence to bolster the evil that they choose to do. The #NotYourShield campaign was amusing, because I don't think you guys realize it, but you are their shield.
When people say you can't blame the entire movement for the few bad people, it's like saying you can't blame the sword for what the tip of it did.
During the Egyptian "spring", protests turned ugly in a number of ways. The argument could be made (and probably was) that the protesters were giving a shield to people who were doing things that were completely immoral.
But, none of this is unique to gaming or '#gamersgate'... very recently in the UK one person killed themselves in a 'social media mess', a national footballer has been racially abused by a bunch of idiots etc. (and then there was the banknote campaign etc etc.)
My own feeling is that #GG would disappear if there was a fudged compromise to the 'journalistic integrity' thing (ask a few of the 'more sane' members of GG for some simple/practical ideas that they'd support).
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Adam's a piece of shit. More as it develops...
I knew from his earlier tweets, but that last one where he basically goes "welp, nice knowing you" just took the cake.
Holy shit.
skullmuffins
Banned
Law Enforcement. I figure it's the same old noise of "Cops would tell you to not publicize threats", so people who do talk about them are making them up/aren't really afraid/whatever the latest smear is.Seems like it. And what the hell did Baldwin mean by "LE" in that tweet?
shacklesmcgee
Member
"I get death threats every month"
"they go away if you don't give them attention"
I see, I see.
I was gonna go with :
"This is how I deal with fear and being terrorized, everyone should do the same!"
Also, wasn't TotalBiscuit that youtuber that literally censored the Bioshock Infinite dev a month or so ago?
Total Biscuit's latest take.
I get what he's saying, but I feel like it's far too late to take the "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. The toxicity has grown to an unstable level, especially with people like Milo and Adam Baldwin continuing to feed the beast.
It isn't even that it's too late. It's easy to say, "just ignore them!" when you're coming from the perspective of someone who deals with this "on a monthly basis".
Oh woe is you, TB. Gimme a break.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Law Enforcement. I figure it's the same old noise of "Cops would tell you to not publicize threats", so people who do talk about them are making them up/aren't really afraid/whatever the latest smear is.
Now that I know what that means Baldwin's an even bigger asshole. And that's the guy who coined the name for this dumb movement that has so many rallied to said cause? Good lord....
Neoriceisgood
Member
Gamergate is about what gamergate isn't about.
First, the reason "People act in ways online they never would in real life" is that people have somehow convinced themselves it's not "real life." It is real life, the people you are talking to are real living people. The whole internet is not real life needs to go away. It's completely real. All this does is dehumanize other people, which is the exact opposite such a huge means of communication should do.
Second, the whole "suffer in silence cause nobody wants to hear about it" bit is getting old.
yea it's real life but one party is completely 100% anonymous, for all intents and purposes. if you get death threats, take it to the police and be done with it. publicizing it all over the internet is only gonna make the next anonymous asshole do the exact same thing, so they can watch the drama unfold. much like swatting of streamers, they're getting off on actually watching the shit go down. if they had nothing to see, they'd have nothing to enjoy.
i don't think TB is saying suffer in silence and don't go to the police. i think he's saying go to the police and don't give the abuser free publicity on your own twitter, because that's basically all they get out of it in the first place.
it's don't feed the trolls, on the craziest level i've ever seen.
Total Biscuit's latest take.
I get what he's saying, but I feel like it's far too late to take the "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. The toxicity has grown to an unstable level, especially with people like Milo and Adam Baldwin continuing to feed the beast.
Total Biscuit is on some real bullshit in all this. That post is mad patronizing. "Just lay back and think of England", are you for serious? "Ignore them" is the lamest thing. Accepting the status quo is what cowards do. Aspiring to better and trying to inspiring people to better is the beautiful thing.
When people talk about #gamergate being right wing, this is the sort of attitude they're talking about. This kind of regressive "there's no misogyny problem here" slash "there's no validity to these threats" type attitudes are inherently conservative. "The status quo is good" is a rightwing attitude but fuck taking this status quo on the chin. This standing is fucked. "Death threats are just the cost of doing business" is disgustingly pessimistic. Go figure people want better, TB. Go figure.
ShockingAlberto
Member
I do think it's impressive that TB managed to take death threats against other people and make them about himself.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
The gamergate hashtag is almost entirely, almost without exception, about the media coverage of gamergate over the last couple hours. This seems to be more and more true every day. /kotakuinaction, almost every story is about coverage of gamergate not game journalism.
The most telling thing right now about GamerGate is their response to #StopGamerGate2014. There are only one or two people from GG trying to start a discussion.
The rest are trying to destroy #StopGamerGate. They are actually threatened by it to the level where they feel they need to attack the hashtag as if it were any number of their victims.
There are already parody tweets trending, such as #StopWhitePeople2014 and #StopMexicans2014.
It isn't even that it's too late. It's easy to say, "just ignore them!" when you're coming from the perspective of someone who deals with this "on a monthly basis".
Oh woe is you, TB. Gimme a break.
If I had even monthly people telling me to die that would be enough to hurt me. Let's not trivialize other people's suffering. :\
MundaneMatt is getting a bit fed up. I'm sure it's frustrating for them. But if you're not going to confront the shadows lurking in your campaign, then you don't get to have a happy, fun campaign.
jim-jam bongs
Member
My own feeling is that #GG would disappear if there was a fudged compromise to the 'journalistic integrity' thing (ask a few of the 'more sane' members of GG for some simple/practical ideas that they'd support).
You're probably right about that actually, especially since they keep asking sites which already have ethics policies to create ethics policies. Though something tells me they'd just shift the goalposts and keep making life awful for women they don't agree with.
ShockingAlberto
Member
That "gamergate" is a thing is beyond my comprehension. What is happening here?
Who could take all of this so seriously to send death threats over it? I honestly cannot picture the type of person. I'm baffled.
It's not that you've never met that kind of person, it's almost certainly that the kind of person that would do that knows how to hide themselves well on places like, say, GAF.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Welp.
Some dude on 8chan is talking about killing Zoe Quinn. Like, not as an individual, though. As a group. So he's basically saying they should get a bunch of people together and lynch her.
Goodnight, my little SJWs. See you tomorrow unless that's when my new job wants me to work.
Some dude on 8chan is talking about killing Zoe Quinn. Like, not as an individual, though. As a group. So he's basically saying they should get a bunch of people together and lynch her.
Goodnight, my little SJWs. See you tomorrow unless that's when my new job wants me to work.
If I had even monthly people telling me to die that would be enough to hurt me. Let's not trivialize other people's suffering. :
I'm not trivializing it, I'm just giving it the credence it deserves and only.
It's bad. Fine.
It doesn't happen on a daily basis.
He's not being threatened with rape.
He's not getting terror/bomb threats.
He hasn't had to leave his home.
He hasn't been doxxed.
He doesn't have a mob of cretins after him, complete with D-list celebrity backing.
It's just another spin of GGs favorite record - "False Equivalency".
BrassDragon
Member
Total Biscuit's latest take.
I get what he's saying, but I feel like it's far too late to take the "ignore them and they'll go away" approach. The toxicity has grown to an unstable level, especially with people like Milo and Adam Baldwin continuing to feed the beast.
As someone who deals with these kind of crimes professionally, I believe that TB is spot-on in his advice not to publicize specific threats on social media. I know tempers are hot right now but please consider this argument:
When the police actually investigate these things, they zoom in on the 'sphere of knowledge' of the suspect: does he know details that can only be gleaned from actively stalking/researching the victim. If you widely publish, say, 'today I left my home because of death threats', you negate two details (the time/date and your response to the threat) that could be used to find and/or interrogate a suspect. It's just a few minor details, sure, but on such details cases are built in the real world.
There are probably people under threat reading this: confer with the officer who took your statement before you reflexively reveal details on social media. The police advice is not meant to silence your opinion or blame you for being endangered or because law-enforcement doesn't understand social media/your job (I hear these accusations regularly where I work) Consider that it's meant to facilitate catching the bastard. Sometimes a well-timed revelation at the end of an investigation, under the guidance of law-enforcement, can actually lead directly to the suspect so don't jump the gun.
If you take issue with my advice here, maybe because you feel all GG evil should be dragged out into the sunlight, please weigh the impact of an actual arrest against the impact of a few tweets.
I'm not trivializing it, I'm just giving it the credence it deserves and only.
It's bad. Fine.
It doesn't happen on a daily basis.
He's not being threatened with rape.
He's not getting terror/bomb threats.
He hasn't had to leave his home.
He hasn't been doxxed.
He doesn't have a mob of cretins after him, complete with D-list celebrity backing.
It's just another spin of GGs favorite record - "False Equivalency".
How do you know those threats haven't happend to him? Becasue he isn't screaming/bringing attention to it?
Fantastapotamus
Wrong about commas, wrong about everything
Whurs the prooofe this has anything to do with gamuregaite?Welp.
Some dude on 8chan is talking about killing Zoe Quinn. Like, not as an individual, though. As a group. So he's basically saying they should get a bunch of people together and lynch her.
Goodnight, my little SJWs. See you tomorrow unless that's when my new job wants me to work.
I'm not trivializing it, I'm just giving it the credence it deserves and only.
It's bad. Fine.
It doesn't happen on a daily basis.
He's not being threatened with rape.
He's not getting terror/bomb threats.
He hasn't had to leave his home.
He hasn't been doxxed.
He doesn't have a mob of cretins after him, complete with D-list celebrity backing.
It's just another spin of GGs favorite record - "False Equivalency".
I suppose. When I was younger a bunch of guys in a car screamed at the top of their lungs "Die N*ggers!" as they drove off to my mom and I. I'm sure it made them feel really good about themselves but it was really hurtful to me. And I'll never forget that experience or that feeling.
=\ Just one experience like that kind of drains your faith in others. I wouldn't wish that on anyone.
Galactic Fork
A little fluff between the ears never did any harm...
Yeeeeeeeah... That was my point. the anonymity convinces people it's not real life. Like the really fucking messed up stuff people say they'd do if they were invisible. People not knowing you're a terrible person, doesn't mean you're not one.yea it's real life but one party is completely 100% anonymous, for all intents and purposes.
This is assuming people just want reaction. These people want silence. For example, they didn't just send these threats to Sarkeesian, they sent them to the school too. To the venue she was attending. That shit needs to be known. I personally think when someone gets a metric fuck-ton of threats, they should totally publicize it. The people making the threats think they're righteous. They think they're doing something good. People condemning them will not fit that righteousness.if you get death threats, take it to the police and be done with it. publicizing it all over the internet is only gonna make the next anonymous asshole do the exact same thing, so they can watch the drama unfold. much like swatting of streamers, they're getting off on actually watching the shit go down. if they had nothing to see, they'd have nothing to enjoy.
i don't think TB is saying suffer in silence and don't go to the police. i think he's saying go to the police and don't give the abuser free publicity on your own twitter, because that's basically all they get out of it in the first place.
Stop calling them trolls. "Troll" has become so vague and broad that it has lost all meaning. Just "people saying bad shit on the internet." People say bad shit for all different reasons. Not just to get a reaction. Not just to "get fed". And really... As I mentioned, the threats are more about silence, so being quiet is feeding them.it's don't feed the trolls, on the craziest level i've ever seen.
Messofanego
Banned
I'm not trivializing it, I'm just giving it the credence it deserves and only.
It's bad. Fine.
It doesn't happen on a daily basis.
He's not being threatened with rape.
He's not getting terror/bomb threats.
He hasn't had to leave his home.
He hasn't been doxxed.
He doesn't have a mob of cretins after him, complete with D-list celebrity backing.
It's just another spin of GGs favorite record - "False Equivalency".
Yup. In real life, it's easier to ignore bullies and not give them ammo. But on the internet, with what's TB gone through compared to other women, that advice won't stick. When it extends to much bigger things like bomb threats or terrorist threats or having to leave your house which are much more public matters that deserve awareness, you can't ignore anymore.
How do you know those threats haven't happend to him? Becasue he isn't screaming/bringing attention to it?
If he could relate any better to what Wu or Quinn or really any woman who's ever had the audacity to open her mouth on the internet is going through right now, he would've said so.
But he can't. It's written right there. "It happens monthly." Boo-fucking-hoo.
As someone who deals with these kind of crimes professionally, I believe that TB is spot-on in his advice not to publicize specific threats on social media. I know tempers are hot right now but please consider this argument:
When the police actually investigate these things--
This is where I started laughing tragically. The reason I think it's important for Sarkeesian et al to be public about this stuff is that the law enforcement response is so obvious so totally inadequate. "Let's trust law enforcement to handle this well" is hardly helpful when you've gone to them several times and found their response at best inadequate and at worst insulting.
Looking at this particular Utah thing Sarkeesian just faced, law enforcement response to a credible threat was literally to do nothing. Once you've seen the cops do nothing, what the hell is keeping quiet and trusting them to respond appropriately supposed to accomplish? And this is hardly the first time she's seen such a response from law enforcement. She's not fighting individual threats here, she's fighting a world in which such threats are seen as permissible by law enforcement and a significant segment of society generally. The powers have failed her and they've failed us so why should anybody rely on them?
If he could relate any better to what Wu or Quinn or really any woman who's ever had the audacity to open her mouth on the internet is going through right now, he would've said so.
But he can't. It's written right there. "It happens monthly." Boo-fucking-hoo.
that's a pretty pathetic stance to take, imo. you sound almost exactly like a gamergater here. "ok abuse is bad, but others out there have it worse"
what about someone like boogie who was being threatened on a daily basis, was doxxed, did get bombthreats and death threats, etc? would you have more sympathy for him?
seems like TB is simply trying to offer up some advice from his POV with regards to the abuse he's received. who are you to invalidate that just because you don't like the advice he gave?
Galactic Fork said:This is assuming people just want reaction. These people want silence. For example, they didn't just send these threats to Sarkeesian, they sent them to the school too. To the venue she was attending. That shit needs to be known. I personally think when someone gets a metric fuck-ton of threats, they should totally publicize it. The people making the threats think they're righteous. They think they're doing something good. People condemning them will not fit that righteousness.
i guess we just have a disagreement on what the abusers endgame is then. with the exception of the public threat that was made to USU, most of the threats have been made privately and directly to people. i personally doubt that they'd be expecting someone to quiver in fear from those messages but are probably hoping that the victim is disturbed enough by the message to repost it.
i think if it was more about silencing people than a sick voyeuristic thing we'd see a lot more of the USU type public threats.
i guess we just have a disagreement on what the abusers endgame is then. with the exception of the public threat that was made to USU, most of the threats have been made privately and directly to people. i personally doubt that they'd be expecting someone to quiver in fear from those messages but are probably hoping that the victim is disturbed enough by the message to repost it.
i think if it was more about silencing people than a sick voyeuristic thing we'd see a lot more of the USU type public threats.
Uhhh...
I mean, in college it's no joke. It can never be taken lightly, because college students leave HUUUGE warning signs before they attack. They give plenty of warnings and hints before they act. You simply cannot ignore something like that. Especially if the person is suicidal. In this case "You've ruined my life" seems to show that this person's hatred is higher than his will to live.
The good news is that if the sender is really from the campus...they can find him and get him help.
It's so strange. Total Biscuit feels he needs to defend gaming from outside attack. I feel I need to defend gaming from gamergate. That my gaming sites like neogaf and rps are under attack.
We're not real gamers. Nope.
that's a pretty pathetic stance to take, imo. you sound almost exactly like a gamergater here. "ok abuse is bad, but others out there have it worse"
what about someone like boogie who was being threatened on a daily basis, was doxxed, did get bombthreats and death threats, etc? would you have more sympathy for him?
seems like TB is simply trying to offer up some advice from his POV with regards to the abuse he's received. who are you to invalidate that just because you don't like the advice he gave?
You need to re-read my post, friend. My problem is TB offering advice under the cover of a bullshit false equivalency. He can't relate to what these women are going through and that's my issue. How dare he try to give advice. If he could relate, I'd acknowledge. His own callousness and lack of empathy paints the picture of someone who's had a much lighter experience.
Boogie is a sucker from YT who got banned the previous day. That's all I know about him. That's all I care to.
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