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#GAMERGATE: The Threadening [Read the OP] -- #StopGamerGate2014

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Lime

Member
Thank God for Jim Sterling.

Well, 3 years ago I had severe issues with his understanding of gender with very hostile misogynistic attitudes on public display.But I'm super happy to see that he has changed a lot more, though. At least that's the impression I've gotten.

I love the amount of coverage this is getting from completely non-gaming related outlets. Maureen Ryan's piece is fantastic

You should see the reaction of people unfamiliar with video games when I tell them about all of this. It's unreal.
 

Brakke

Banned
This isn't really a strong enough belief for me to argue about it, but I feel like you placed way more emphasis on my word choice as incredibly deliberate than I did.

Shrug. You accused him of being insincere in holding an attitude that the camera's gawking was a Big Deal, that he probably feels like "he merely didn't like it". But the text of the review reads like "he merely didn't like it" is the case. He recently reviewed Forza Horizon 2, Alien Isolation, Borderlands The Presequel... and Bayonetta 2 got the highest score of the lot.

He clearly liked the game a whole lot, despite it making him roll his eyes / grimace now often enough that it stuck out.
 
Well, 3 years ago I had severe issues with his understanding of gender with very hostile misogynistic attitudes on public display.But I'm super happy to see that he has changed a lot more, though. At least that's the impression I've gotten.



You should see the reaction of people unfamiliar with video games when I tell them about all of this. It's unreal.

Yeah, he said some awful things in the past. But if Sterling can change, that does give me some hope others can, too.
 
Well, 3 years ago I had severe issues with his understanding of gender with very hostile misogynistic attitudes on public display.But I'm super happy to see that he has changed a lot more, though. At least that's the impression I've gotten.
I had an idiotic grasp of it and was, well, an idiot. And for all GGers' recent attempts to throw these things in my face to try and stop me being critical of them, I remain proud of who I am now.

I've been sharing an old interview I did since this stuff's been dredged up again, and I feel it is still pretty good at representing my bottom line on the changes I've made and continue to make in my interactions with the world. http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/...th-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/

It's my hope some of the really nasty people showing their asses lately can come to similar understandings.
 
Whatever; I've been asked to visual data in way more awkward ways. I know exactly what you guys are saying and it REALLLLY doesn't need explained any more. Hard to drop with people calling me a "fool" left and right and ignoring that I am not asking anyone to explain it to me, and I indicated I do this for a living so you guys can stop (you can call me bad at my job but I know what a PIE is.. it's like a pizza right?).

If someone wants to see 1:4 as 1/5 visually I'm not going to argue that it isn't the precise purpose of a pie chart. It still gets across attach ratio in the same way any other visual representation would. For every 1 of this one thing you have 4 of this other.

I'm simply saying it's not anywhere near as bad as you guys are making it out to be; it's an interesting way to show attach ratio if you let go of the exacting purpose of a chart type. I'd rather just look at numbers myself, but those that want a visualization can in fact choose how they see relationships and correlations and it isn't anywhere near as "black and white, this is the right way this is the wrong way" as you all want it to be.

But now you can all mock me not just Polygon, so I've done you all a favor!

It's just odd that you're defending terrible infographics. Anyone who had done basic statistics (and I'm not questioning that you have) wouldn't have drawn the conclusions about Mario Kart 8's sales. The projections Polygon made were hysterical when they made them, and obviously the sales figures just underlined that.

It was a terrible article with terrible conclusions and that pie chart summed up it's ineptitude better than it summed up attach ratios.

But that's all.

This is weirdly off topic even for a thread on GamerGate.
 
Shrug. You accused him of being insincere in holding an attitude that the camera's gawking was a Big Deal, that he probably feels like "he merely didn't like it". But the text of the review reads like "he merely didn't like it" is the case. He recently reviewed Forza Horizon 2, Alien Isolation, Borderlands The Presequel... and Bayonetta 2 got the highest score of the lot.

He clearly liked the game a whole lot, despite it making him roll his eyes / grimace now often enough that it stuck out.

Again, merely an observation based on things like him suggesting no one actually liked Vanquish, they just merely felt bad God Hand didn't sell, or referring to how Razor's Edge on Wii U was worse than the vanilla version of Ninja Gaiden 3 for reasons such as "the Wii U does not follow generally accepted button naming schemes" (I believe that was on GAF, back when he posted here before leaving due to losing a $5 bet).

If it's not the case, then okay. But I have my suspicions about it based mostly on that I don't really trust Gies to be straightforward about why he really dislikes things.
 

Lime

Member
Reminder: The structural and systemic issues in the video games industry and culture are fostering the attitudes we see on display here. The lack of perspectives, of worldviews, of experiences, and of values all contribute to this environment we live in where people get told over and over again that they're awesome for buying video games and that anything being criticized for something they themselves aren't familiar with or incapable of relating to should be protected at all costs. These are people who think that saying anything critical of women in video games amount to censorship. These are people who spend tons of energy and literally hours on trying to debunk a woman's Youtube video series. And these people are never challenged because of the environment they live in never expose them to the actual diversity of the real world.

And this environment is something everyone with even the tiniest bit of power are complicit in fostering. When Polygon hires white guy Ben Kuchera almost immediately after him losing his job, while marginalized writers have to live off the good-will of people through Patreon. When Giantbomb hires two more guys despite having a chance to diversify their staff. When all the diversity discussions we have primarily and exclusively talk about women when other topics such as race, class, age, ability are downprioritized. When Polygon hires another White dude as their senior editor. When console reveals only brings men to show off the products and games. When people allow racist/sexist/homophobic slurs remain unchallenged in online multiplayer games. When people doubts a woman when she tells her own story of being discriminated against. When trade shows and huge press conferences fail to include a diversity of speakers and presenters for their games. When marketing people think advises developers to remove women from front covers of video games and their marketing. When people in the workplace don't call out the boys-club mentality and how it affects the work atmosphere.

There are so many factors and instances where everyone existing and participating in this culture are complicit in fostering this environment where Gamergaters come from. And there is not enough that is being done to change this environment. We, as in people within this culture, seriously need to be better and much more actively foster an environment that challenges oppressive and bigoted attitudes and thinking, while helping and ensuring the well-being of people affected by the structural and systemic oppression and discrimination.
 

JC Sera

Member
I had an idiotic grasp of it and was, well, an idiot. And for all GGers' recent attempts to throw these things in my face to try and stop me being critical of them, I remain proud of who I am now.

I've been sharing an old interview I did since this stuff's been dredged up again, and I feel it is still pretty good at representing my bottom line on the changes I've made and continue to make in my interactions with the world. http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/...th-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/

It's my hope some of the really nasty people showing their asses lately can come to similar understandings.
Btw Jim I just want you to know when people change like you did, it gives me a lot of hope for the industry
hopefully a lot can be learned from this shit storm
 

Lime

Member
I had an idiotic grasp of it and was, well, an idiot. And for all GGers' recent attempts to throw these things in my face to try and stop me being critical of them, I remain proud of who I am now.

I've been sharing an old interview I did since this stuff's been dredged up again, and I feel it is still pretty good at representing my bottom line on the changes I've made and continue to make in my interactions with the world. http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/...th-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/

It's my hope some of the really nasty people showing their asses lately can come to similar understandings.

Thanks for sharing that Jim. And yeah, many are super happy to see you come around so fast and it's a long time ago, so you should really pat yourself on the back for correcting the mistake. I also apologize if you thought it egregious for me to trot out something that's 3 years old. :)
 
Shrug. You accused him of being insincere in holding an attitude that the camera's gawking was a Big Deal, that he probably feels like "he merely didn't like it". But the text of the review reads like "he merely didn't like it" is the case. He recently reviewed Forza Horizon 2, Alien Isolation, Borderlands The Presequel... and Bayonetta 2 got the highest score of the lot.

He clearly liked the game a whole lot, despite it making him roll his eyes / grimace now often enough that it stuck out.

Arthur gave Forza Horizon 2 a 7? The cad!

pose.jpg
 
The only thing that's weird about the Gies review is that I don't think he's sincere about his belief that Bayonetta 2's sexuality bothers him enough to ruin the game since I think he merely didn't like it, anyway, based on my observations of his opinions on other things (the Vanquish/God Hand conspiracy being exhibit A in this) and latched on to this thing in particular.

But that's merely an observation and not a conclusion and Gies is more than entitled to his opinion on anything.
I really wish they'd gotten somebody else to review the game because it was inevitable with it being Gies the internet was going to dogpile on him regardless of what he actually wrote, GAF included.

I don't like the guy, I think his previous behavior has painted a pretty bad image of himself for myself and a ton of other people, but reviews are inherently subjective and he was absolutely allowed to write what he wrote. It's just as bad as that GTAV review where people gave that one woman shit because she felt bits of it were sexist, and in that situations he gave it a near perfect score regardless.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Completely tangential, but I decided to check out the very first Jimquisition on a whim and wow, he was using the exact same background music back then hahaha
 
Completely tangential, but I decided to check out the very first Jimquisition on a whim and wow, he was using the exact same background music back then hahaha
Not sure that's correct.

I used to use Jesters of the Moon from FFIX until the 100th main Escapist episode, then I switched to an original piece by Danny Baranowsky (a piece titled Jim's Dick 2). Different background tracks.

The main theme has always been the same though.
 
So gamergate...

B0A3e0HIcAA6mXY.png:small


You want to pressure publishers to not give review copies to outlets that reviewed their game poorly?


Complaints about Arthur Gies choosing to focus on "sexualising" Bayonetta 2 in his Polygon review? Goodness, this is the definitive cheesecake game. It is the developers who sexualised it, so it's difficult to accuse the reviewer of seeing what isn't there. We may agree or disagree with his personal choice of criteria for reviewing, but this particular line of complaint sounds ridiculous. What next? A GTAV reviewer accused of violently raping the game? Because that makes about as much sense.

Or is it merely atrocious grammar? Do they just not understand how gerunds work? Honestly that wouldn't surprise me either.
 
I had an idiotic grasp of it and was, well, an idiot. And for all GGers' recent attempts to throw these things in my face to try and stop me being critical of them, I remain proud of who I am now.

I've been sharing an old interview I did since this stuff's been dredged up again, and I feel it is still pretty good at representing my bottom line on the changes I've made and continue to make in my interactions with the world. http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/...th-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/

It's my hope some of the really nasty people showing their asses lately can come to similar understandings.

Damn, well, if someone's going to beat me to the punch in posting something, I have no problem with it being the man himself it's about. But seriously, I'd recommend everyone read it, it's a pretty good interview.

I mean, a lot of us have gone through a stupid prick phase, a combination of arrogance, misogyny, and militant atheism, and contrarianism. For some people it just lasts longer. Seemingly forever. Glad I got through mine in sophomore year of high school, when the only people that saw me being awful online were people on Gaia Online. People may always see that stupid IQ post TB made on Something Awful like six years ago, but I can be fairly sure no one will dredge up the stuff I posted on Gaia.

At least I hope not. o_o
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Not sure that's correct.

I used to use Jesters of the Moon from FFIX until the 100th main Escapist episode, then I switched to an original piece by Danny Baranowsky (a piece titled Jim's Dick 2). Different background tracks.

The main theme has always been the same though.

Oh huh...okay now that I listen to them back to back I can tell they're different, but I honestly couldn't have pinpointed the transition, I thought it was Jesters of the Moon all the way through

Whelp, nifty
 

JackDT

Member
Yeah I personally don't agree with Arthur on this one. I disagree with his scores probably more than the average reviewer. He has really shit on some games I think are great, where I feel like he missed out on why. But I've read enough of his stuff that I have a bead on where's he's coming from and like hearing his thoughts. And the shit he gets for deviating from metacritic is just ridiculous. Having different opinions is fine.
 

antigoon

Member
I had an idiotic grasp of it and was, well, an idiot. And for all GGers' recent attempts to throw these things in my face to try and stop me being critical of them, I remain proud of who I am now.

I've been sharing an old interview I did since this stuff's been dredged up again, and I feel it is still pretty good at representing my bottom line on the changes I've made and continue to make in my interactions with the world. http://www.gamingaswomen.com/posts/...th-jim-sterling-about-sexism-in-game-culture/

It's my hope some of the really nasty people showing their asses lately can come to similar understandings.

This is actually really encouraging. I found this part of the interview you shared particularly salient:

Jim Sterling said:
I’ve taken to calling my prior attitude, as well as the attitude of other members of the gaming community, the “obviously not” syndrome. In my mind, I “obviously” wasn’t a sexist because I didn’t believe in mistreating women, in hurting women, that sort of more extreme activity the cursory glancer associates with sexism. That’s the insidious thing about misogyny and privilege — you never really think of the subtle things, the more sinister harmful things you may be perpetuating. Making jokes about feminist, being “satirical," calling someone a “feminazi slut,” it was all fine and dandy, because I “obviously” didn’t mean it, and “obviously” didn’t think I was a bad person. The trouble is, when you start telling yourself it’s “obvious,” you give yourself no further cause to actually reflect on yourself or your behavior

I find it salient because this is how I used to think and behave when I was younger. Screaming "raaaaaaaaaaaape" over Xbox Live voice chat after getting kills in Halo 2 wasn't problematic at all - I obviously wasn't a sexist and you'd have to be a fool to think I was! I grew up in New York and hated George Bush, after all. Someone like me couldn't possibly be sexist. It's just a video game, maybe it's YOU who has the problem if you're offended! This is the Internet, and if you don't like it, you can leave. *grunt*
 

L Thammy

Member
When this is all over and done with, I wouldn't mind if this thread is culled. Remove all the discussion and just leave the jokes. Gamergate is a joke; no one should be taking it seriously. The ol' Mel Brooks approach.
 
Also I know this is a month late but did the Roast's bit on #gamergate get linked here?
(context: its a parody of an Australia game review tv show called Good Game)

Australians seem to have a real talent when it comes to mocking things.

When this is all over and done with, I wouldn't mind if this thread is culled. Remove all the discussion and just leave the jokes. Gamergate is a joke; no one should be taking it seriously. The ol' Mel Brooks approach.


There's the tough part, how do you differentiate between the satire and the actual madness that is Gamergate?
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Yeah I personally don't agree with Arthur on this one. I disagree with his scores probably more than the average reviewer. He has really shit on some games I think are great, where I feel like he missed out on why. But I've read enough of his stuff that I have a bead on where's he's coming from and like hearing his thoughts. And the shit he gets for deviating from metacritic is just ridiculous. Having different opinions is fine.

Yeah, I mean I read Arthur's review and could tell that he was unaligned from me enough that I didn't need to take his opinion into account when making my purchase decision. Taking things beyond that kind of baffles me. I get the argument that the industry does care about Metacritic more than it should and therefore there are actual business repercussions (and as a result consumer repercussions) to scores, but...I don't know if I get that vibe off of most of the people complaining about those kind of reviews. The conversation always seems to be focused on why the review is flawed or wrong in its very existence.
 
Damn, well, if someone's going to beat me to the punch in posting something, I have no problem with it being the man himself it's about. But seriously, I'd recommend everyone read it, it's a pretty good interview.

I mean, a lot of us have gone through a stupid prick phase, a combination of arrogance, misogyny, and militant atheism, and contrarianism. For some people it just lasts longer. Seemingly forever. Glad I got through mine in sophomore year of high school, when the only people that saw me being awful online were people on Gaia Online. People may always see that stupid IQ post TB made on Something Awful like six years ago, but I can be fairly sure no one will dredge up the stuff I posted on Gaia.

At least I hope not. o_o
There was a time in my late teens/early 20s where I definitely confused feminism and misandry as the same thing. In my mind, all feminism was radical feminism and it was trying to take away from what men had. Basically my view of the gender war was that it was similar to 1930s race relations from the view of the people who feared the oppressed.

I don't remember if it was any one thing that slapped me to a more empathetic way of thinking; I am sure my mom once tearfully telling me that, even though America afforded more opportunities for women than her home country, there's always going to be the stigma that women are lesser here in certain arenas certainly changed my viewpoint a lot. A lot of it may have just been seeing people who thought like I did at the time, but weren't afraid to say it or go to further extremes, sort of repulsed me on a fundamental level.

I think that's why I have some degree of sympathy for these people. They might be an epiphany away from doing the right thing, but everyone is different, so there's no bullhorn we can use to really reach them.
 

Nephrahim

Member
Yeah, I mean I read Arthur's review and could tell that he was unaligned from me enough that I didn't need to take his opinion into account when making my purchase decision. Taking things beyond that kind of baffles me. I get the argument that the industry does care about Metacritic more than it should and therefore there are actual business repercussions (and as a result consumer repercussions) to scores, but...I don't know if I get that vibe off of most of the people complaining about those kind of reviews. The conversation always seems to be focused on why the review is flawed or wrong in its very existence.

This, pretty much.

I don't particularly agree with Arthur's Review... but I don't see how that leads to calling for a boycott of his work.

In the same way, I don't like Polygon's editorial coverage of most things... but that doesn't mean I want them to go out of business or something.
 
I don't remember if it was any one thing that slapped me to a more empathetic way of thinking; I am sure my mom once tearfully telling me that, even though America afforded more opportunities for women than her home country, there's always going to be the stigma that women are lesser here in certain arenas certainly changed my viewpoint a lot. A lot of it may have just been seeing people who thought like I did at the time, but weren't afraid to say it or go to further extremes, sort of repulsed me on a fundamental level.

I think that's why I have some degree of sympathy for these people. They might be an epiphany away from doing the right thing, but everyone is different, so there's no bullhorn we can use to really reach them.

Yeah, my situation was a bit more complex since it sort of compounded with some depression over failing a class (had never done it before, but got given a teacher that failed all but two students in his three classes), that phase sort of mixed with the depression. I don't know what exactly happened to get me out of it, but thank god it did.
 
The "Polygon reviews are ruining gaming" drum has been beating since The Last of Us last year, then Gone Home later in the year. These people really don't like their editorial content.

Nor do I, really, but it has nothing to do with social stances and has more to do with clowns like Kuchera.
 
The "Polygon reviews are ruining gaming" drum has been beating since The Last of Us last year, then Gone Home later in the year. These people really don't like their editorial content.

Nor do I, really, but it has nothing to do with social stances and has more to do with clowns like Kuchera.

Yeah, I disagree with their opinions of games, but I won't dismiss them as evil because of that. Sometimes it's interesting to read differing opinions.
 

riotous

Banned
I honestly just think Polygon tries really hard to have "cool" paragraph/sentence cutouts in their articles even more than your average publication.

It's like they write 5 "catch phrases" for "bold and bigger font cut-outs" and then wrap a review around them. Or just go out of their way to say something really.. something.. be it snarky.. or "trippy".. or just what they perceive as being a very intellectual way to describe something.

Their partner site The Verge does the same thing in it's hardware reviews for phones; describing cell phone screens in quirky ways for the sake of highlighting their "cool sentence they wrote."

Lots of web sites/magazines/whatever have done this for ages.. but Polygon does it in a way that just makes me giggle.

It was a terrible article with terrible conclusions and that pie chart summed up it's ineptitude better than it summed up attach ratios.

But that's all.

I understand; as I said I know nothing of the article itself. Perhaps I was being a bit obtuse in not understanding how that is most likely a really stupid graph in the context of their article and I'm thinking too deeply about it (due to how many times I've had to visualize data for dashboards in ways that is awkward, but mathematically correct.)

The math is as simple as summing the 2 sides of a ratio and representing that as a fraction.. the justification for why you would do something so awkward statistically is something else.. and I did a really poor job of explaining that.. lost my chance and it's really not all that important.

I just find it interesting I guess and was being a bit obtuse due to how my brain has been warped by building "dashboards" for people.
 
Jim, since we're tangentially on the topic with this whole Bayonetta thing, may I ask what your opinion on review scores is, in general? I guess, that's probably a stupid question, since you give games scores all the time, but personally I always felt the nature of a score or ranking diminished a review itself in a way, shifting focus away from the content of the piece and the thoughts of the writer to some simple abritrary value. That's why I prefer the score-less impressions by Rock Paper Shotgun over PC Gamer.

You see it all the time, people complaining that this got a 8 or that got a 10 or 5 stars or whatever, and never discussing the actual substance of a review.
 

Lime

Member
if anyone wants a laugh: comic tweeted by people associated with Gamergate:

BypPmYdIUAMlvbc.jpg:large


at least it accurately represents the gamer as an immature white guy aggressively interrupting women by telling them to shut the fuck up.
 
if anyone wants a laugh: comic tweeted by people associated with Gamergate:

BypPmYdIUAMlvbc.jpg:large


at least it accurately represents the gamer as an immature white guy aggressively interrupting women by telling them to shut the fuck up.

Ah, Shredded Mouse. I've seen this comic in the past.

If you want to burn some brain cells, go look at some older ones. They make this look positively enlightened.
 

L Thammy

Member
if anyone wants a laugh: comic tweeted by people associated with Gamergate:

BypPmYdIUAMlvbc.jpg:large


at least it accurately represents the gamer as an immature white guy aggressively interrupting women by telling them to shut the fuck up.

...Is Gamergate formed by guys who time traveled from the nineties?
There's that character design, and I'm pretty sure that's a SNES controller. Which is inexplicably wireless.
 
It's my hope some of the really nasty people showing their asses lately can come to similar understandings.

That's my hope too. Like yourself I had really poor ideas I'm not particularly proud of years ago. That has definitely changed in the last 2-3 years in particular. I'd like to think most of the GGers are in the 16-24 age bracket and that they too will mature and gain some empathy and understanding as they become older.
 

Corpekata

Banned
I thought New Shredded Moose is made by a lunatic who tried to stalk the original people down to pay them to make new Shredded Moose though. All forms of shredded moose are probably shit though.

I hope this is not true because I'm not sure I want to live in a world where someone was a big enough fan to do that.
 
Jim, since we're tangentially on the topic with this whole Bayonetta thing, may I ask what your opinion on review scores is, in general? I guess, that's probably a stupid question, since you give games scores all the time, but personally I always felt the nature of a score or ranking diminished a review itself in a way, shifting focus away from the content of the piece and the thoughts of the writer to some simple abritrary value. That's why I prefer the score-less impressions by Rock Paper Shotgun over PC Gamer.

You see it all the time, people complaining that this got a 8 or that got a 10 or 5 stars or whatever, and never discussing the actual substance of a review.

He did a video on it already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIe_QTGuT4I
 

Lime

Member
In like 30 years all the GGers will have fully matured into the racist old neoconservative cranks they were always meant to be
 

Brakke

Banned
if anyone wants a laugh: comic tweeted by people associated with Gamergate:

<inane comic redacted>

at least it accurately represents the gamer as an immature white guy aggressively interrupting women by telling them to shut the fuck up.

I have never heard of this until now so I went looking and the first search hit was to a page on "The Bad Webcomics Wiki".

Perfect.
 
The outrage on GAF was probably hardly even about the criteria he used to score the Bayonetta. Whenever a game with a hardcore following gets a less than stellar score from one outlet, people flip the fuck out and try to rationalize why the review is invalid and the reviewer is stupid or has an agenda. It happened to Jeff Gerstmann at least twice with Twilight Princess and Driveclub, and now it is happening to Gies (I assume not for the first time either).
 

Oidisco

Member
Fun fact:
The Shredded Moose guy joined Twitter a few weeks ago for the sole purpose of complaining to Zoe that she made an edit of one of his comics, after he made those 2 awful comics about her. It was really sad.
 

John Funk

Neo Member
Oh hey, I remembered my NeoGAF password. Fun times.

Is it me, or does it seem like the fever has broken? I think last night was the breaking point for a lot of people.
 
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