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[MYeager]

Maybe I'm projecting or being overly sensitive, but when I see that I think that her goal is to change games I like to appeal more to other people. But... I like rescuing princesses. It's simple and easy, plus the structure of Mario and Zelda games has some far-reaching nostalgia. I like seeing gritty slums populated with thugs, hobos and hookers. I like knowing that, if I choose, I can push the button to kill NPCs. And while I didn't play the game, I thought it was hilarious that RDR had a trophy for tying a woman to the railroad tracks, something Sarkeesian specifically pointed out as troubling.

Sarkeesian's videos are inherently destructive criticism. She puts together a collage of things she views as problems. Which can put people who don't view them as problems on the defensive.

That's where I'm coming from, at least. The Jack Thompson comparison is apt in my view: how is it wrong in yours? (aside from the fact that JT tried to enforce his views legally, as has already been pointed out)

I like those games too. I don't see Anita's work as trying to destroy these games, I don't often agree with what she's saying or the context she puts some clips into, however I also think it's a good conversation to have since both the technology and audience have grow a lot since Mario saved Princess Peach for the first time.

Anita is presenting opinions for discussion. She's not saying that GTA shouldn't exist, just that the creators shouldn't rely on certain tropes over and over again. As someone who loves video games and has played a substantial amount, I agree that many games suffer from the same tired cliches. A significant amount of games use saving a female character (or for that matter killing one) in order to give the player motivation. As a gamer I want developers to do more than just use the same tired cliches over and over again in the same way I'm tired of some blockbuster movies using the same cliches endlessly.

Jack wanted it to be illegal for you to buy the games. He said that if you played them they taught you to kill. He didn't try to make videos exploring his opinion, he told you it was fact and lobbied against the industry.

There's a significant difference between the two.

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Yay Egoraptor isn't a gamer gater

 

[Morrigan Stark]

1. I was talking about Anita

2. Citation fucking needed

Calm down, Devolution was agreeing with you. Also google "presequel boycott" to see a bunch of angry Redditers calling for a boycott of TPS because SJWs or something.

 

[Nairume]

Maybe I'm projecting or being overly sensitive, but when I see that I think that her goal is to change games I like to appeal more to other people. But... I like rescuing princesses. It's simple and easy, plus the structure of Mario and Zelda games has some far-reaching nostalgia. I like seeing gritty slums populated with thugs, hobos and hookers. I like knowing that, if I choose, I can push the button to kill NPCs. And while I didn't play the game, I thought it was hilarious that RDR had a trophy for tying a woman to the railroad tracks, something Sarkeesian specifically pointed out as troubling.

I think you are doing both yourself and her a massive disservice by boiling it down to "she wants to change games to make it more appealing to other people, " when it's less about removing these things entirely from gaming and more about recognizing the implications of these tropes and discussing how they don't need to be in every game all the time.

Also, she opens up every video with "hey, it's perfectly okay to enjoy these games for what they are" She's very clear that not every game has to be devoid of anything offensive in order to appeal to every single person. Rather the point is that not every game has to be Dudebro III: Fucking Bitches Be Wailin' About My Gun While We Be Slicing Hardest Turbo Warfare, either.

 

[The Blackrose]

Funny how no one ever tells these people, "Ignore the feminists, and they'll go away. By making a big deal out of this, you're only giving them more ammunition."

And it's doubly funny because it's true; Sarkeesian is now headlining the NY Times. XD Good job at silencing her, idiots.

Sarkeesian is probably the most amusing example of the Streisand effect to come about since the term was coined.

 

[andymcc]

Also, she opens up every video with "hey, it's perfectly okay to enjoy these games for what they are" She's very clear that not every game has to be devoid of anything offensive in order to appeal to every single person.

she doesn't even just open up every video with it. she emphatically restates that SEVERAL times in most of her videos.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

It looks like mercedes-benz has removed their advertising campaign from gawker because of what sam wrote on his twitter account.

What was written on twitter?

 

[Devolution]

1. I was talking about Anita

2. Citation fucking needed

Did you even read my post? I wasn't disagreeing with you, I was backing you up. Chill out.

 

[zeldablue]

Growth could be a bad thing if it involves appealing to a wider or different audience. Just like old-school FPS fans object to regenerating health, old-school Zelda fans object to Skyward Sword's ridiculous level of handholding, or practically everyone objects to Farmville-style F2P business models. If the industry tries to appeal to other people, then it's not trying as hard to appeal to the core audience.

I'm also not sure where you're getting that impression of Sarkeesian's work. I've only watched the Tropes videos, but they haven't struck me as coming "from a basis of respect." To me they've just seemed like a list of "In Mario you rescue a princess. In Zelda you rescue a princess. Deus Ex HR has prostitutes, and you can kill them. Red Dead Redemption has prostitutes, and you can kill them. Grand Theft Auto has prostitutes, and you can kill them."

Maybe I'm projecting or being overly sensitive, but when I see that I think that her goal is to change games I like to appeal more to other people. But... I like rescuing princesses. It's simple and easy, plus the structure of Mario and Zelda games has some far-reaching nostalgia. I like seeing gritty slums populated with thugs, hobos and hookers. I like knowing that, if I choose, I can push the button to kill NPCs. And while I didn't play the game, I thought it was hilarious that RDR had a trophy for tying a woman to the railroad tracks, something Sarkeesian specifically pointed out as troubling.

Sarkeesian's videos are inherently destructive criticism. She puts together a collage of things she views as problems. Which can put people who don't view them as problems on the defensive.

That's where I'm coming from, at least. The Jack Thompson comparison is apt in my view: how is it wrong in yours? (aside from the fact that JT tried to enforce his views legally, as has already been pointed out)

Zelda games are much better, story-wise, when they don't bother making Zelda important. Zelda's about the journey, not the "woman as reward." Pay attention to the themes in Ocarina of Time. What is that game really saying about masculinity?

Also nothing is wrong with any trope. The prevalence and dependency on them is wrong. It staggers creativity, it doesn't create creativity.

 

[Ri'Orius]

"Criticism performed with the intention to harm someone, derogate and destroy someone’s creation, prestige, reputation and self-esteem."

I don't see it.

Oh, apparently I was entirely wrong about the definitions of constructive and destructive criticism. I thought "constructive" was "here's what you did well, here are suggestions on how to do things better," while "destructive" was "here's what you did poorly."

Well that's embarrassing.

 

[stupei]

Concerning the rise of "Social Justice Warrior" as a concept: I've always thought it had to do with the idea of "white knights" that was prevalent for a while in certain circles, though you don't see it used as often anymore.

The sort of people who would use a term like white knight generally seemed to think that anyone they were engaging with online was also a man -- male being the default, apparently -- and that any man who would be concerned with women's issues must be doing it in the hopes of getting laid. (This is just more of that general idea that men and women can never be friends because women are only objects of desire, who either acquiesce or "friend zone" the men who are the ones with agency.) A woman couldn't possibly be arguing on behalf of herself, it must be a goody two-shoes white knight whose only goal is to obtain her.

Once they began to realize that some of the people who disagreed with them were women themselves, they obviously couldn't be called white knights who want to obtain other women as a prize -- lesbians after all only exist for the male gaze -- but the idea of sneering at a warrior who makes their career out of a naive pursuit of some childish idea of justice (mixed with a suggestion of self-righteousness) still appealed to them, and so the idea of women as Social Justice Warriors took hold as a particularly snide way of harking back to the old "professional victims" refrain. The term has since grown to encompass men as well, and basically anyone who disagrees with you on issues you deem to be "politicized."

Just a theory, though.

 

[Kabuki Quantum Lover]

Oh, apparently I was entirely wrong about the definitions of constructive and destructive criticism. I thought "constructive" was "here's what you did well, here are suggestions on how to do things better," while "destructive" was "here's what you did poorly."

Well that's embarrassing.

This whole exercise was constructive, thus no harm done.

 

[JackDT]

I think criticism along the lines of, "I would be able to enjoy this game more if the female characters were as well written as the male characters." is constructive not destructive, you're telling someone how you think they could make something better. You might not agree with them, but that doesn't make it destructive.

 

[Cybit]

Zelda games are much better, story-wise, when they don't bother making Zelda important. Zelda's about the journey, not the "woman as reward." Pay attention to the themes in Ocarina of Time. What is that game really saying about masculinity?

Indeed.

Also, note, part of the friction is that there's a call to for game companies to change who they market to in a period of historic market conservative views. Companies are very, very conservative (economically) currently; see Apple just doing a few upgrades to their iPads as an example. Because of the nature of shareholder capitalism - risks are seen as a very bad thing, and companies taking risks get punished hard by their shareholders. (Which I think is ridiculous, but I digress). Many of the companies that do take risks usually have majority shareholders entrenched enough that no one can tell them no.

So asking game companies to reach for a new market right now is going to get a lot of corporate pushback; not because of sexism or racism, but because the company will get punished hard by current economic forces for taking any unnecessary risks. In order to be able to reach for a new market, they honestly need to mess up their current market enough that investors believe that reaching for the new market is their only chance of increasing their revenue.

 

[Messofanego]

Yay Egoraptor isn't a gamer gater

Have Egoraptor and Jontron had any interactions relating to this? Awkward...

 

[GoodCoffeeJoey]

Was this article posted?

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/glob...ideas-and-words-of-gamergate/article21146512/

That globe article is great. It's like a pro-GG post cheat sheet.

 

[Goon Boon]

What was written on twitter?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

Oh, apparently I was entirely wrong about the definitions of constructive and destructive criticism. I thought "constructive" was "here's what you did well, here are suggestions on how to do things better," while "destructive" was "here's what you did poorly."

Well that's embarrassing.

No problem, now you know!

Destructive criticism is inherently empty "you're not good/talented enough." "this is wrong" and in worse cases it verges on bullying/personal attacks.

Anita puts a lot of care, time and attention into her criticism so it's inherently constructive.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Guy is a Gawker employee, right?

Isn't being a gigantic nerd a prerequisite to do that?

 

[Kinyou]

Oh, apparently I was entirely wrong about the definitions of constructive and destructive criticism. I thought "constructive" was "here's what you did well, here are suggestions on how to do things better," while "destructive" was "here's what you did poorly."

Well that's embarrassing.

I think what you were looking for was negative criticism. And I agree in that regard. Anita doesn't spend too much time on positive examples, or on how to fix certain problems. That her last video in the series is going to be about positive female characters also only happened after backers kept asking for it.

 

[Rats Off To Ya]

Has this been posted? Sorry, but this is kind of incredible. The delusion on display, here...magnificent.

THIS IS WHAT GAMERGATERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

 

[JackDT]

EuroGamer comes out strong anti-gamergate. This is also Digital Foundry: the awesome folks who do the closest thing to a objective analysis of the game quality in the industry.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2014-10-17-we-cannot-let-this-become-gaming-culture

http://www.eurogamer.net/?topic=digital_foundry

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Has this been posted? Sorry, but this is kind of incredible. The delusion on display, here...magnificent.

THIS IS WHAT GAMERGATERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

Lack of all ideological bias outside of "no blacks" and "tits or gtfo".


The one #GG kinda guy I know, total creep, got really pissed off at me once when I named a black solider in XCOM after him.

Like... really pissed. Told me to change it.

So I named my black female after him.

 

[andymcc]

Has this been posted? Sorry, but this is kind of incredible. The delusion on display, here...magnificent.

THIS IS WHAT GAMERGATERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

I mean, many games are inherently political so you wouldn't even be able to point out political themes present in the games themselves.

i don't even begin to get their fucked up logic.

 

[FyreWulff]

Has this been posted? Sorry, but this is kind of incredible. The delusion on display, here...magnificent.

THIS IS WHAT GAMERGATERS ACTUALLY BELIEVE

I still can't believe there are people out there that think you can have an objective review of a game.

 

[zeldablue]

Indeed.

Also, note, part of the friction is that there's a call to for game companies to change who they market to in a period of historic market conservative views. Companies are very, very conservative (economically) currently; see Apple just doing a few upgrades to their iPads as an example. Because of the nature of shareholder capitalism - risks are seen as a very bad thing, and companies taking risks get punished hard by their shareholders. (Which I think is ridiculous, but I digress). Many of the companies that do take risks usually have majority shareholders entrenched enough that no one can tell them no.

So asking game companies to reach for a new market right now is going to get a lot of corporate pushback; not because of sexism or racism, but because the company will get punished hard by current economic forces for taking any unnecessary risks. In order to be able to reach for a new market, they honestly need to mess up their current market enough that investors believe that reaching for the new market is their only chance of increasing their revenue.

It's not really a risk to model the women a bit differently or cut back on sexist slurs. It is definitely a risk to have a female protagonist though. But the more subtle stuff is basically invisible, no one would notice if it was missing or not. Most of these players say they don't see sexism, so how would they even know if a game took sexism out or not?

:S It's a strange thought.

 

[VibratingDonkey]

The boycott I've seen so far is GGers organizing to boycott Borderlands 2.

But it's SJWs that are going to take games away and censor artists.

That wasn't a joke? I've completely lost the ability to tell any longer.
Oh never mind, managed to read that as Bayonetta 2.
Still though.

 

[Neoriceisgood]

That wasn't a joke? I've completely lost the ability to tell any longer.
Oh never mind, managed to read that as Bayonetta 2.

Poe's law is fairly strong where GG is concerned.

 

[Ri'Orius]

Also, she opens up every video with "hey, it's perfectly okay to enjoy these games for what they are" She's very clear that not every game has to be devoid of anything offensive in order to appeal to every single person. Rather the point is that not every game has to be Dudebro III: Fucking Bitches Be Wailin' About My Gun While We Be Slicing Hardest Turbo Warfare, either.

she doesn't even just open up every video with it. she emphatically restates that SEVERAL times in most of her videos.

Right, so I just skimmed the transcripts (background decoration, damsel pt1 and damsel pt2)... and I don't see what you're referring to. The closest I could find was

Over the course of this series I will be offering critical analysis of many popular games and characters, but please keep in mind that it’s both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy a piece of media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects.

There are similar disclaimers in each video. And to me that doesn't say "it's okay to enjoy rescuing Peach," that says "it's okay to enjoy playing Mario in general." It doesn't say "it's fine for there to be some Dudebro games, but there are too many;" it says "Dudebro may be fun, but it would be better if it didn't use prostitutes as background decoration."

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

I think what you were looking for was negative criticism. And I agree in that regard. Anita doesn't spend too much time on positive examples, or on how to fix certain problems. That her last video in the series is going to be about positive female characters also only happened after backers kept asking for it.

I think of her videos as a consulting tool to help firms and developers get a better understanding on how to incorporate genders in games the right way without being offensive and cliche.

I don't think she is a developer who can tell them the nitty gritty on how to code them and she certainly isn't telling them how to make there games either. She's just the women that every dev room needs when they are trying to create a female character. Sort of a book on how to word phrases the right way so you aren't misinterpreted.

 

[plagiarize]

I still can't believe there are people out there that think you can have an objective review of a game.

That's not a specific problem to GamerGate sadly.

 

[laser]

There are similar disclaimers in each video. And to me that doesn't say "it's okay to enjoy rescuing Peach," that says "it's okay to enjoy playing Mario in general." It doesn't say "it's fine for there to be some Dudebro games, but there are too many;" it says "Dudebro may be fun, but it would be better if it didn't use prostitutes as background decoration."

I don't get it, is that supposed to be a bad thing?

 

[Neoriceisgood]

I think what you were looking for was negative criticism. And I agree in that regard. Anita doesn't spend too much time on positive examples, or on how to fix certain problems. That her last video in the series is going to be about positive female characters also only happened after backers kept asking for it.

What problem would you consider difficult to fix without positive examples? Genuinly curious.

 

[MYeager]

There are similar disclaimers in each video. And to me that doesn't say "it's okay to enjoy rescuing Peach," that says "it's okay to enjoy playing Mario in general." It doesn't say "it's fine for there to be some Dudebro games, but there are too many;" it says "Dudebro may be fun, but it would be better if it didn't use prostitutes as background decoration."

I'm not sure how you're getting all that out of saying it's okay to enjoy a product and remain critical of it at the same time. Is there a specific reference or tone that's adding an additional context I'm not seeing?

 

[TheBryanJZX90]

Right, so I just skimmed the transcripts (background decoration, damsel pt1 and damsel pt2)... and I don't see what you're referring to. The closest I could find was



There are similar disclaimers in each video. And to me that doesn't say "it's okay to enjoy rescuing Peach," that says "it's okay to enjoy playing Mario in general." It doesn't say "it's fine for there to be some Dudebro games, but there are too many;" it says "Dudebro may be fun, but it would be better if it didn't use prostitutes as background decoration."

You're still confusing a criticism of the game ("its problematic aspects") with a criticism of the player ("ok/not ok to enjoy")

 

[HegeMon]

Maybe I'm projecting or being overly sensitive, but when I see that I think that her goal is to change games I like to appeal more to other people. But... I like rescuing princesses. It's simple and easy, plus the structure of Mario and Zelda games has some far-reaching nostalgia. I like seeing gritty slums populated with thugs, hobos and hookers. I like knowing that, if I choose, I can push the button to kill NPCs. And while I didn't play the game, I thought it was hilarious that RDR had a trophy for tying a woman to the railroad tracks, something Sarkeesian specifically pointed out as troubling.

Sarkeesian's videos are inherently destructive criticism. She puts together a collage of things she views as problems. Which can put people who don't view them as problems on the defensive.

Yes, going "on the defensive" is exactly what everyone did. But whatever happened to actually offering a defense? YOU offered a defense: you like killing NPCs and are amused by tying women to tracks, etc., and you don't want these things taken away. But this is literally the first time I've read a real defense. Everyone else just said, "Oh, she's cherry-picking, she's disingenuous, you actually lose XP if you do that," and so on. I think if more people had actually come out and said, "I like this stuff, and I will continue to support games that have it, and I don't want the fact that people are offended to stop publishers from putting these elements in games," we could have had a real discussion and not what we ended up with.

 

[Kinyou]

What problem would you consider difficult to fix without positive examples? Genuinly curious.

Well, for example what to actually do with the prostitutes in Deus Ex or Red dead Redemption. If your solution is "don't include them at all" then that's negative criticism because you're just telling someone that he shouldn't do something.

 

[RM8]

I saw on Reddit that Kamiya twitted "I'll block idiots using that tag [GG] immediately". Bayo 2 boycott incoming

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

Yes, going "on the defensive" is exactly what everyone did. But whatever happened to actually offering a defense? YOU offered a defense: you like killing NPCs and are amused by tying women to tracks, etc., and you don't want these things taken away. But this is literally the first time I've read a real defense. Everyone else just said, "Oh, she's cherry-picking, she's disingenuous, you actually lose XP if you do that," and so on. I think if more people had actually come out and said, "I like this stuff, and I will continue to support games that have it, and I don't want the fact that people are offended to stop publishers from putting these elements in games," we could have had a real discussion and not what we ended up with.

Dunno about the other stuff, but the bolded? I'd count that as a legit defense. AFAIK the "you lose XP" remark came up when she said Hitman encouraged you do something when in fact it penalized you with an XP loss.

Not that that kind of mistake is worth any of this blowback or anything.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Lack of all ideological bias outside of "no blacks" and "tits or gtfo".


The one #GG kinda guy I know, total creep, got really pissed off at me once when I named a black solider in XCOM after him.

Like... really pissed. Told me to change it.

So I named my black female after him.

I think your friend may be a bit just a bit racist and being part of #GG is the least of his problems.

 

[Zuhzuhzombie!!]

I think your friend may be a bit just a bit racist and being part of #GG is the least of his problems.

He's an unstable loon but all the shit I see from PUA/MRA and #GG guys fits him to a T as well.

 

[plagiarize]

Well, for example what to actually do with the prostitutes in Deus Ex or Red dead Redemption. If your solution is "don't include them at all" then that's negative criticism because you're just telling someone that he shouldn't do something.

Should we never advise people against certain choices that we disagree with? GG advocates tweet things like 'Gamers are tired of being lectured to by politically correct SJWs'. Okay. You're tired of hearing people talk about something.

People know that you have no rights protecting them from boredom yes? And I don't see any way of protecting people from being lectured to that doesn't clearly infringe on free speech.

 

[Nairume]

And to me that doesn't say "it's okay to enjoy rescuing Peach," that says "it's okay to enjoy playing Mario in general." It doesn't say "it's fine for there to be some Dudebro games, but there are too many;" it says "Dudebro may be fun, but it would be better if it didn't use prostitutes as background decoration."

No, she's saying you can enjoy dudebro and even be fine with it doing those things, as long as you understand that it is a trope that can have negative implications and that it doesn't need to be in every game.

Again, she's not saying that these tropes can never be in these games ever. Just that developers and gamers should be open to the discussion of when those tropes don't need to be in a game.

 

[axisofweevils]

William Gibson joins the "fallen heroes".

 

[FF Seraphim]

He's an unstable loon but all the shit I see from PUA/MRA and #GG guys fits him to a T as well.

I keep seeing people use PUA/MRA, I should of asked this sooner, but what do they stand for and how are they bad?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

William Gibson joins the "fallen heroes".

Every book by Gibson that I read bored me to tears. I'm not very fond of him as an author.

But damn, now I really like him as a person.

 

[dead souls]

William Gibson joins the "fallen heroes".

Lol, I'm burning my copy of Neuromancer right now.

Good for Mr. Gibson.

 

[tchocky]

Well, for example what to actually do with the prostitutes in Deus Ex or Red dead Redemption. If your solution is "don't include them at all" then that's negative criticism because you're just telling someone that he shouldn't do something.

Does that mean games journalists shouldn't tell devs to stop including qtes, unskippable cutscenes, escort missions or other crappy things games have done over the years because its negative criticism. Part of their their jobs is to say this sucks stop doing it..

 

[plagiarize]

I keep seeing people use PUA/MRA, I should of asked this sooner, but what do they stand for and how are they bad?

MRA means 'male rights activist'. I don't think you need any more explanation there. I'm not sure about PUA.

 

[zeldablue]

Yes, going "on the defensive" is exactly what everyone did. But whatever happened to actually offering a defense? YOU offered a defense: you like killing NPCs and are amused by tying women to tracks, etc., and you don't want these things taken away. But this is literally the first time I've read a real defense. Everyone else just said, "Oh, she's cherry-picking, she's disingenuous, you actually lose XP if you do that," and so on. I think if more people had actually come out and said, "I like this stuff, and I will continue to support games that have it, and I don't want the fact that people are offended to stop publishers from putting these elements in games," we could have had a real discussion and not what we ended up with.

That's what everyone should be saying. I like this stuff. That's all that needs to be said. You have no reason to feel shame or guilt for liking virtual depictions of sexism. Unrealism has nothing to do with reality. Just as there is no shame in watching a horror movie. But at the same time, you should be open to understanding why women are upset/critical of those depictions, and why it might chase us away or reaffirm troublesome stereotypes that hurt real women.