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Should companies like Rockstar be more responsible?

I was in my local game shop when a father walked in with his son who couldn't have been more than 10 years old. The kid plucks GTAV off of the shelf and hands it to his father. I asked the father if he knew what the content of the game was and he said "No. Why, is it bad?"

I proceeded to explain it to him. He paused for a moment, then the kid leaned in and whispered something to him, the look in his face being unmistakably that of "Don't listen to him, dad."

Father continues to pause, has two bills in his wallet at the ready to pay, has a brief moment of confliction, rubs the two bills together then whips them out and pays for the game.

That guy should be held responsible, and everyone like him.

When the father asked me to tell him what the game was about, I told him it was about ethics in game journalism.
 

Hexa

Member
"It is just a videogame" is a fucking lazy handwave. Noone approaches the "Transformers" movies with they are just movies. GTA is one the biggest, most well known IPs in the videogame industry. It is an award winning, extremely hyped franchise, with huge impact on our culture. It is part of our culture.

Yes they do? What else do you see Transformers as? They're movies with who knows what going on and they are awesome.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
So... it's the former and the latter.

What..? Are you - ?

Sure. It is, man. I really can't advocate this morally indefensible, brainwashing, violent trash and Rockstar should be brought to court for their success and be made responsible.

giphy.gif
 

Oersted

Member
Yes they do? What else do you see Transformers as? They're movies with who knows what going on and they are awesome.

Do you honestly handwave issues of a product with "it is a videogame/book/movie" away? How does it make sense to you?
 

Teeth

Member
This is a perfect example of failing to recognize the difference between a story that contains violence, disturbing imagery but still has a moral compass and a story that rides off violence and disturbing imagery for shock and pleasure. I haven't read The Count of Monte Cristo but there is a gulf between what The Terminator films do and what GTAV is doing.

The original Terminator film sternly presents the Terminator character as the antagonist - a symbol of terror and violence when we let technology get out of hand. It's an extremely straightforward example. The sequel pits The Terminator as a hero, but one who doesn't understand the nuances or delicacies of human life so he needs a human influence to teach him. From the beginning of meeting John Connor, he immediately stops killing people - he doesn't understand why - that'll take him the duration of the film to understand, but he doesn't do it. So do you understand that just because the Terminator films are framed as violent action movies, they have a clear moral backbone that can be readily consumed without feeling like I have to take a cold shower afterwards?

Even in more harrowing, hard hitting movies like, let's just say Fight Club - a film where our protagonist is riding a very morally grey line - the film itself never falls into a moral quandary - on the contrary, it's making mature and thought provoking statements about male, animalistic desire for violence and how that can go very, very wrong. Its moral compass is in good stead.

It's not a question of censorship. It's not a question of "Think of the children!" It's a question of "Is this really the best we can do?" Is this what 'storytelling' is in video games? Is this ultimately vapid, wasteful, reckless and immature? Could we replace this schlock with something more meaningful and moral? And by no means is this exclusive to GTAV - this is an ongoing issue with the medium as a whole. There are far too many in the industry ready to hand wave the entire problem. "Video Games are made for adults! Didn't you see the R-rating on the cover?" Then make a game for adults - with the meaning, maturity and nuance an adult should expect.

Here's the thing about GTA though, in any other medium, it could be held up as a work of subversive art. No, seriously. Even just a cursive look at its content displays a unified message.

GTA is the American Male Id thrown back in the face of everyone who plays it. Everyone is human garbage; the men are idiots or sociopaths though usually both, the women are whores, nags, problems and usually all combined. The pursuit is money, bloodbaths be damned. Every problem is solved by screaming, killing, or driving really fast.

Everyone is a caricature of human; a ripoff of a popular movie or singular character trait distilled to its ghoulish base. Scenes play out to the perfect soundtrack under breathless shouting back and forth. Buddies are made through excellent digs at each other and women are dismissed with a slap on the ass and a good lay. That guy over there? He's from that one tv show. That chick? She's from that one racial stereotype. You've got everyone summed up because you know how the world works from watching TV.

The media thinks everyone is dumb as shit in the games. The universe has people swilling the products they peddle from advertisements openly mocking their consumers. That's the burgers you eat, the websites you visit, the people you know...they are all garbage and you love it.

Other male id-isms: Shoot down everyone, get in trouble, how do you solve it?...just run away. Don't deal with it. After enough time, everything goes back to normal. The state of the world is unchanging. Blow up a building, kill a thousand people, it doesn't matter. You are both the center of everything and completely meaningless in the world you inhabit. You affect no one and everyone. A giant screaming vent of violence and the world is uncaring to the point of un-noticing.

At a meta level, GTA completes its male id manifesto by forcing its will onto its projected user base of chest thumping males: Hate "gays"? Name a game after a flamboyant gay character and make you take missions from him. The same audience that would cringe away from naked men because c'mon NO HOMO puts a giant swinging dick in a cutscene just make you uncomfortable. What could be more male than finding what you don't like and forcing you to experience it and jeer at you for laying down your hard earned cash.

Oh, you want to be the king? Try a yoga mission. Or mop the floors.

Also, the split between Nico being a raging serial killer in gameplay and Aw-Shucks schlub in cutscenes is the Father Goes To Church On Sundays model of Americana presentation. Everyone loves Nico!

GTA doesn't need the moral backbone of traditional storytelling, it's the Onion article about all perceived American Men.

As a side note, I recall there being a minor hubbub when one of the Housers said that they wouldn't do a female protagonist for a GTA since the games were about a very specific male presentation. Normally, developers just say this to hand wave hetero-normative creative decisions, but in this case, he's not. He's right, the GTA games are one of the few games that are actually about something. The entire encompassing whole of a GTA game is a thematic representation of an idea, most people just don't want to accept it.

It's a shame that the GTA games are terrible games though.
 

sappyday

Member
The writing isn't anywhere near level of good (I don't even remember what most of it consisted of) but the characters were interesting enough that you at least remember their names and personality which is all I really need for a game like GTA V
 

MormaPope

Banned
Here's the thing about GTA though, in any other medium, it could be held up as a work of subversive art. No, seriously. Even just a cursive look at its content displays a unified message.

GTA is the American Male Id thrown back in the face of everyone who plays it. Everyone is human garbage; the men are idiots or sociopaths though usually both, the women are whores, nags, problems and usually all combined. The pursuit is money, bloodbaths be damned. Every problem is solved by screaming, killing, or driving really fast.

Everyone is a caricature of human; a ripoff of a popular movie or singular character trait distilled to its ghoulish base. Scenes play out to the perfect soundtrack under breathless shouting back and forth. Buddies are made through excellent digs at each other and women are dismissed with a slap on the ass and a good lay. That guy over there? He's from that one tv show. That chick? She's from that one racial stereotype. You've got everyone summed up because you know how the world works from watching TV.

The media thinks everyone is dumb as shit in the games. The universe has people swilling the products they peddle from advertisements openly mocking their consumers. That's the burgers you eat, the websites you visit, the people you know...they are all garbage and you love it.

Other male id-isms: Shoot down everyone, get in trouble, how do you solve it?...just run away. Don't deal with it. After enough time, everything goes back to normal. The state of the world is unchanging. Blow up a building, kill a thousand people, it doesn't matter. You are both the center of everything and completely meaningless in the world you inhabit. You affect no one and everyone. A giant screaming vent of violence and the world is uncaring to the point of un-noticing.

At a meta level, GTA completes its male id manifesto by forcing its will onto its projected user base of chest thumping males: Hate "gays"? Name a game after a flamboyant gay character and make you take missions from him. The same audience that would cringe away from naked men because c'mon NO HOMO puts a giant swinging dick in a cutscene just make you uncomfortable. What could be more male than finding what you don't like and forcing you to experience it and jeer at you for laying down your hard earned cash.

Oh, you want to be the king? Try a yoga mission. Or mop the floors.

Also, the split between Nico being a raging serial killer in gameplay and Aw-Shucks schlub in cutscenes is the Father Goes To Church On Sundays model of Americana presentation. Everyone loves Nico!

GTA doesn't need the moral backbone of traditional storytelling, it's the Onion article about all perceived American Men.

As a side note, I recall there being a minor hubbub when one of the Housers said that they wouldn't do a female protagonist for a GTA since the games were about a very specific male presentation. Normally, developers just say this to hand wave hetero-normative creative decisions, but in this case, he's not. He's right, the GTA games are one of the few games that are actually about something. The entire encompassing whole of a GTA game is a thematic representation of an idea, most people just don't want to accept it.

It's a shame that the GTA games are terrible games though.

Holy shit, definitely one of the best posts I've seen on Gaf, you offered an awesome and elaborate perspective on the series, and you don't even like the gameplay. Fantastic post, I mean that wholeheartedly.
 
I've not encountered this in games, but there is a film called "A Serbian Film" which is the most vile disgusting thing I have ever seen, and it made question if it had gone too far. My friend went to a lecture with the director and basically the entire movie was just about seeing how far he could take it into the gross inhumane offensive and grotesque.

I don't know what it means that things like that are allowed to exist. I feel the same way when an artist wants to be novel by painting a canvas with pee, shit and menstrual blood. Is it just a person trying to grasp for attention or is it art? In any case it is gross.

GTA feels like entertainment to me. I guess it should be responsible, but if judged on the level of how we view violence in the world, I think we have to conclude that violence is one of our biggest fantasies. We love to watch mayham, destruction and all the things we cannot do. I think this is different from the above mentioned that went out to provoke. I still feel GTA only wants you to have a good time and it still only takes a piss out of everything. Like Wolf of Wall Street. It's hilarious because of how outragous it is.
 

bunbun777

Member
Maybe gta doesn't really need a story overhaul but I couldn't help pretending I was almost playing fallout or what if trevor's character was in a totally different script. Rdr had a pretty weak story too. But the game was great looking and fun to play. If rockstar doesn't want to grow up that's fine I guess. Or should I say cater to a more mature taste..
 
I recently got GTAV for PS4 and upon playing it again, the game is incredible. The context, though? What the fuck were they doing?

It's amazingly orchestrated, even if it is an example of "videogames emulating films", because it marries both mediums masterfully. Still, you'd think a company with that much brand power would find themselves obligated to exercise that influence more responsibly.

Why am I playing as the guy that holds a woman hostage against a battalion of state troopers after blowing up a bank?

I get they still consider their games to be about "harmless caricatures" in a fantasy satirical world, but if you're gonna go through the trouble of having this Hollywood-esque production in your intro and the story's set up, then it begs the question of "why not bring the context you provide up to the same level?".

I'm merely whining about characters and story here. The world is beautifully constructed and the game is a monster. It's incredible, mechanically. But they really dropped the ball with characters and storytelling.

I don't have an answer as to how to make a story within a sandbox game compelling. But there have to be better ways to get the player invested in all of the game's brilliantly crafted mechanics than what they provided.

I kept thinking Heat or End of Watch as I played the intro, but then it hit me: this is just a crazy kid's fantasy.

Anyone else feel this way?

GTAV is, of course, a game. It was designed to be entertaining.
It is not realistic.
It does not have any higher meaning.
At most, it is a satire.

It is, like you said, "a crazy kid's fantasy."
There is plenty of serious media that purports to and sometimes does in fact show the world as it really is: The news.
The real question is, if you reached the aforementioned conclusion in your post, that the game is a fantasy, how do you still wish the creators of such media were still responsible, and perhaps more importantly, in what way could they be so?

Companies like Rockstar sell entertainment, and nothing else. If there is any responsibility to be had, it lies in the hands of their customers.
 

Diablos

Member
I find it pretty compelling how many people seem to be coming around to the argument that yes, video game companies can in fact act poorly in how they design their titles.
 
Here's the thing about GTA though, in any other medium, it could be held up as a work of subversive art. No, seriously. Even just a cursive look at its content displays a unified message.

GTA is the American Male Id thrown back in the face of everyone who plays it. Everyone is human garbage; the men are idiots or sociopaths though usually both, the women are whores, nags, problems and usually all combined. The pursuit is money, bloodbaths be damned. Every problem is solved by screaming, killing, or driving really fast.

Everyone is a caricature of human; a ripoff of a popular movie or singular character trait distilled to its ghoulish base. Scenes play out to the perfect soundtrack under breathless shouting back and forth. Buddies are made through excellent digs at each other and women are dismissed with a slap on the ass and a good lay. That guy over there? He's from that one tv show. That chick? She's from that one racial stereotype. You've got everyone summed up because you know how the world works from watching TV.

The media thinks everyone is dumb as shit in the games. The universe has people swilling the products they peddle from advertisements openly mocking their consumers. That's the burgers you eat, the websites you visit, the people you know...they are all garbage and you love it.

Other male id-isms: Shoot down everyone, get in trouble, how do you solve it?...just run away. Don't deal with it. After enough time, everything goes back to normal. The state of the world is unchanging. Blow up a building, kill a thousand people, it doesn't matter. You are both the center of everything and completely meaningless in the world you inhabit. You affect no one and everyone. A giant screaming vent of violence and the world is uncaring to the point of un-noticing.

At a meta level, GTA completes its male id manifesto by forcing its will onto its projected user base of chest thumping males: Hate "gays"? Name a game after a flamboyant gay character and make you take missions from him. The same audience that would cringe away from naked men because c'mon NO HOMO puts a giant swinging dick in a cutscene just make you uncomfortable. What could be more male than finding what you don't like and forcing you to experience it and jeer at you for laying down your hard earned cash.

Oh, you want to be the king? Try a yoga mission. Or mop the floors.

Also, the split between Nico being a raging serial killer in gameplay and Aw-Shucks schlub in cutscenes is the Father Goes To Church On Sundays model of Americana presentation. Everyone loves Nico!

GTA doesn't need the moral backbone of traditional storytelling, it's the Onion article about all perceived American Men.

As a side note, I recall there being a minor hubbub when one of the Housers said that they wouldn't do a female protagonist for a GTA since the games were about a very specific male presentation. Normally, developers just say this to hand wave hetero-normative creative decisions, but in this case, he's not. He's right, the GTA games are one of the few games that are actually about something. The entire encompassing whole of a GTA game is a thematic representation of an idea, most people just don't want to accept it.

It's a shame that the GTA games are terrible games though.

Really cool observation. Having never been to LA I also imagine the city of Los Santos being the perfect fit for the shallow, merky humid exterior facade which encapsulates the game?
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Great analysis, Teeth. But by that criteria then it is evident Rockstar has no interest in bringing the medium into a new light in terms of storytelling prowess since they're too busy being mega-successful with their subversive artistic subtext agenda to give a shit.

So holding them responsible to use the success of GTA as a vehicle to bring some of gaming's high-brow storytelling achievements to light is... futile...
 

Hoje0308

Banned
Right, but they chose to make a game about sociopath characters.

It's not like the game was required to be made about these characters the way it is.

I think if anything the GTA series is the ultimate "mature" game in that it is adolescent tripe with horrid writing, plot and premise that glorifies sex, violence and racism and hides behind a super thin veneer of "satire" that isn't actually satirical at all.

GTA4 tried, very briefly, to be something more aspirational, but that sort of broke down after I killed the 20,000th person to save my cousin.

Fun games mechanically, but these games being "art" in the cinematic sense is pretty laughable.

This is largely how I feel. Even the more fleshed out characters are still archetypes that are there to drive a sensationalist, and in my opinion, boring as shit story. The world building is great, but the performance issues, brain dead AI and input lag are things that need to be improved to keep that world fun to interact with. I enjoyed my time with GTA5, but I liked it less than its predecessors. For me, GTA peaked with Vice City. I'm looking forward to the next Red Dead more than I am GTA6.
Full disclosure: I've only just finished the story. Maybe some quality time spent exploring the map will change my opinion for the better.
 
What..? Are you - ?

Sure. It is, man. I really can't advocate this morally indefensible, brainwashing, violent trash and Rockstar should be brought to court for their success and be made responsible.

giphy.gif

Thanks for the condescending gif, but your post initially states it's "the former" - the former being this:

I'm not entirely sure if the OP is talking about being responsible in the sense of simply having writing and characters that match the quality of everything else or responsible in the sense of setting a better moral standard to its audience.

Considering the main appeal of the games I can't agree with the latter interpretation.

...but then you edited your post to include this:

Which is all the more reason to expect better efforts from them to make the "M" on their game boxes actually stand for "Maturity". As it stands they're ambitious in their designs and not much else. The medium remains as technically impressive and as immature as ever. A child's toy. But they keep chasing that Hollywood carrot!

Which certainly sounds like...

...or responsible in the sense of setting a better moral standard to its audience.

...to me.
 
When Rockstar takes chances they do great things. Take Red Dead Redemption for example. It's a western firstly, a setting no other game had been memorably successful with. Secondly you actually play as a good man, someone trying to right his wrongs and find redemption. Even if coerced, all John wanted was to go home to his wife, son, farm and live an honest life.

GTAV on the other hand takes no chances. It's a prettier rehash of the same old formula. Yeah there are three playable protagonists this time, but they are still all dudes and still terrible people doing terrible things for terrible reasons. There is nothing about GTAV that is redeeming. It's a sick, twisted, sexist fantasy that panders to the lowest common denominator.
 

Teeth

Member
Great analysis, Teeth. But by that criteria then it is evident Rockstar has no interest in bringing the medium into a new light in terms of storytelling prowess since they're too busy being mega-successful with their subversive artistic subtext agenda to give a shit.

So holding them responsible to use the success of GTA as a vehicle to bring some of gaming's high-brow storytelling achievements to light is... futile...

I honestly think the Housers are "laughing all the way to the bank" and "want it both ways" to be honest.

For the former, I think they want to push the boundaries as far as they can, as obviously as they can, and see what they can get away with as long as the core GTA elements are there. I mean, they even put in the obnoxious-gaming-fat-loser-rascist in GTA5 and the audience reacted with laughs. "That's not me! Let's kill some n****!"

On the other hand, I think that the Housers also think they are pushing their own brand of high-brow art. Clearly, as this thread has demonstrated, there are a lot of people who don't get it. The Housers are going to push and push until they get some sort of reaction, the torture scene is evident of this. If asked, they would probably say it is their responsibility to push the boundaries on gaming; to open the door for the conversation or some shit.

I'm of two minds on this; on one hand, games have pushed violence much much further than any other medium, so have GTA around to do it harder doesn't really grant the medium anything. But when GTA pushes the social commentary angle, including swinging dicks and media and audience mockery, that's good.

The problem with GTA is that while it does a good job of completing its thematic whole (actually being about something, which is super rare for games), it's hacky as can be. One could argue (and I guess I kind of have) that being incredibly loud and obvious hammers home the male id perspective (I WILL be heard), subtlety has a value all its own.

I guess I would be arguing with myself in stating that GTA could be smarter about its satire. Would it be flying in the face of its own forced extremeness? Would it be playing against type of its against type? Would its less be more than its more for the theme it's presenting? I can't even say.

So I agree with you that it could be better, but I do not in that it should be more responsible. It's doing exactly what it should be, and 'better' is debatable, but not with how violent or misogynistic it is; for its theme, it I believe it is the appropriate amount.
 
No I don't think they need to be more responsible, it's their vision for their game, and that's fine.

That said, I wish they could do some other kind of characters/stories, as I start to get really bored with their games. I will probably pick it up anyway sometime next year, but who knows. (GTA SA was the best though)
 

Andrin

Member
A lot of people seem to mention that it's ok for Rockstar to portray the characters and situations in GTA in any way that they want simply because it's satire. Now, momentarily ignoring the whole "It's free speech they can say what they want" part of this, I'd argue that parts of what R* do with GTA is not even close to satire.

Satire is one of the most difficult and intelligent forms of humour and criticism we have, and simply enacting a scene where, to give a concrete example, a random woman is being raped and beaten, with the perpetrators warning you to back off, then continuing if you leave is not satire.

It's recreation.

They recreate a scene where horrible people do horrible stuff, all while the victim is begging for her life without agency of her own. There's no commentary on why these people are horrible. Nothing on the consequences of such an act on its victim. No context other than "Hey, everyone's an asshole in this city anyway, so why shouldn't there be random rapes taking place next to the streets?" And if you leave the scene, none of the characters are mentioned or seen again.

Not to mention the offensive portrayal of minorities, whether they be gay, female (in the context of gaming I'd actually categorise females as a minority as things stand right now), racial or transgender. You can't just have the minority characters taking on every bad stereotype that exist then hide behind the shield of 'satire' or 'social commentary'. Context is everything.

So, yes. I do think Rockstar need to be a lot more responsible for the work they put out. They want to comment on how rotten they think (some of) our society is? Go ahead! They are even right about a lot of it. But the way they portray some of the issues right now I'd say they're more part of the problem, not a beacon of criticism against it.

And until the rating system for games get a lot more teeth and a way to actually limit the distribution of games according to the rating, the "parents are ultimately responsible" defence is a joke. Disregarding the fact that a lot of parents don't have the time or means to actively read up on everything their kids are playing, it's stupidly easy to get a hold of games these days, regardless of rating. And kids lie. All the time. Like a lot of people do. As long as it's seen as "cool" to be playing CoD or GTA, kids are going to find a way to play them, no matter their parents' wishes.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
Thanks for the condescending gif, but your post initially states it's "the former" - the former being this:



...but then you edited your post to include this:



Which certainly sounds like...



...to me.

This was your only other response to the thread...

GTAV being tongue in cheek is what makes its wonton destruction and violence so much fun. GTAIV had a huge problem with tone because it was so goddamn deadly serious all the time in cutscenes, but had the body count of an 80s action flick and the same goofy jokes GTA usually has. It was kind of a mess, in retrospect.

GTAV's tone is more in line with a dark comedy, which serves it far better.

... to which I responded quite respectfully and you didn't reply.

So, I'm sorry if I'm sick of people not reading the thread and assuming I have a problem with GTA as a whole, or have some sort of Jack Thompson agenda to further shit on and derail the thread.
 

Teeth

Member
Not to mention the offensive portrayal of minorities, whether they be gay, female (in the context of gaming I'd actually categorise females as a minority as things stand right now), racial or transgender. You can't just have the minority characters taking on every bad stereotype that exist then hide behind the shield of 'satire' or 'social commentary'. Context is everything.

The entire game is the context. It is the skewed perception of Americana. It's the idea that no one could be anything but the stereotype their framework of visual or auditory cues creates.

ie- this is how a sociopath sees the world.
 

njean777

Member
Great analysis, Teeth. But by that criteria then it is evident Rockstar has no interest in bringing the medium into a new light in terms of storytelling prowess since they're too busy being mega-successful with their subversive artistic subtext agenda to give a shit.

So holding them responsible to use the success of GTA as a vehicle to bring some of gaming's high-brow storytelling achievements to light is... futile...

The problem is you are ignoring what they are doing, they are moving games forward, it unfortunately happens to be in a world that has very little interest into looking at it in a analytical way. Most people take it for face value instead of actually looking at what it is saying. Good art doesn't explicitly say what it wants to accomplish, it is suppose to make you think and bring you to a higher form of consciousness.
 
Great analysis, Teeth. But by that criteria then it is evident Rockstar has no interest in bringing the medium into a new light in terms of storytelling prowess since they're too busy being mega-successful with their subversive artistic subtext agenda to give a shit.

So holding them responsible to use the success of GTA as a vehicle to bring some of gaming's high-brow storytelling achievements to light is... futile...
When it comes to GTA, your not gonna see it. You might see it in other Rockstar made games like people have pointed out in Red Dead and in my opinion Bully but not in GTA. The way I see it, GTA and it's view of american culture and media is the result of more than 10 years of the company being constantly accused by every news outlet for causing school shootings and their games labeled "cop killing murder simulators." When you have that much weight then I'm not surprised they have a cynical view of everything in the series. You can also compare it to how Sega does storytelling in their Yakuza games. I've never played them so I could be wrong (please tell me if I am) but from what I've seen their not out to tell a heavy morale driven story about being a Yakuza.
 
This was your only other response to the thread...



... to which I responded quite respectfully and you didn't reply.

So, I'm sorry if I'm sick of people not reading the thread and assuming I have a problem with GTA as a whole, or have some sort of Jack Thompson agenda to further shit on and derail the thread.

I didn't see your other response.

I don't think you have a problem with GTA as a whole, and I'm not derailing anything. I'm disagreeing with your assessment that GTAV's tone is inappropriate for the game (and I missed your response to that post) and I also think that in general your arguments seem to be splitting in two directions - agreeing with someone asking if you just wished the writing was more solid in general, but then also lamenting that Rockstar/many other developers' games don't have the same ultra-serious attitude towards violence as some famous films and TV shows. You're also hinging your argument on the concept of responsibility, which implies that you think these games are irresponsible socially considering I've never heard of bad writing called "irresponsible" unless it was actively hurtful (Which, by the way, there's an argument that a lot of GTA's writing is hurtful even if it's trying to be socially aware satire).

Disagreeing with you and trying to parse your arguments is not "derailing" nor do I think you're Jack Thompson. It just seems like your wish for maturity in these games comes at the expense of the more darkly comic tone and over-the-top action, when really these aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of fantastic films that tell well-written stories that are also incredibly violent, stylish, and indulgent. Django Unchained, for example, would be a far less interesting movie without its gallows humor and extreme violence, but it's still very much a full rich story.

I would love for Grand Theft Auto to be better written, as V was kind of all over the place, but I don't think that has to come at the expense of the absurd violence or "Hollywood chasing," as you put it. They tried maudlin and navel-gazing in GTAIV and I personally just don't think it worked. "High brow" is meaningless.
 

Andrin

Member
The entire game is the context. It is the skewed perception of Americana. It's the idea that no one could be anything but the stereotype their framework of visual or auditory cues creates.

ie- this is how a sociopath sees the world.

I can get behind what you are saying here. And your large write up earlier (which I missed while writing mine) definitely brings up a lot of good points as well.

I'd argue though that they don't get this point through clearly enough to a large part of their audience. They see the offensive stereotypes and think they're funny because they're true, since a lot of the media outside of GTA say the same things to them. In a world where a lot of people can take everything Fox News say at face value you have to be extremely blunt or incredibly persuasive to get the point you're talking about across clearly. Which was what I meant when I referred to Rockstar having a responsibility. The message is important, but they are not doing a good enough job of portraying it.
 
That word. I don't think it means what you think it means.

They can do whatever they want, hence the company name.

That being said, their games, GTA in particular would benefit by more focused/coherent writing.
 
That's not what I'm saying.

Nico, for example, was a "nice" guy in cutscenes. He wanted to come clean and leave a violent life behind, or so their linear story had me believe. I could stomach his (or my) means of coming clean even if they seemed illogical or hypocritical, because they characterized him a certain way when the game wasn't in my control. Anything else I did when the game was back under my control was on me. But I didn't feel embarrassed as the story cutscenes and player characterization played along with the morally-questionable deeds I performed in between cutscenes.

Is that ludo-narrative dissonance?

Perhaps I should have worded the OP better, but I was in a rush.

It should be Rockstar's responsibility as an industry leader to elevate the medium, though. As I proposed. Either stick with the Nico character archetype, or ditch linear story telling for something more complex.

It's just a suggestion, at the end of the day. They'll keep on making billions.

Why? I don't want to be forced to play a certain way for the "good" ending in a game like GTA.

And until the rating system for games get a lot more teeth and a way to actually limit the distribution of games according to the rating, the "parents are ultimately responsible" defence is a joke. Disregarding the fact that a lot of parents don't have the time or means to actively read up on everything their kids are playing, it's stupidly easy to get a hold of games these days, regardless of rating. And kids lie. All the time. Like a lot of people do. As long as it's seen as "cool" to be playing CoD or GTA, kids are going to find a way to play them, no matter their parents' wishes.

1fd67e705d09012ee3bd00163e41dd5b
 

Morrigan Stark

Arrogant Smirk
"it's not art because I don't like it"

I really hope people don't take this kind of bullshit seriously.
That is not remotely what I said.

[snip]
"Video Games are made for adults! Didn't you see the R-rating on the cover?" Then make a game for adults - with the meaning, maturity and nuance an adult should expect.
Fantastic post overall, but especially this last bit. So few games really deserve the "mature" tag.
 

Teeth

Member
I can get behind what you are saying here. And your large write up earlier (which I missed while writing mine) definitely brings up a lot of good points as well.

I'd argue though that they don't get this point through clearly enough to a large part of their audience. They see the offensive stereotypes and think they're funny because they're true, since a lot of the media outside of GTA say the same things to them. In a world where a lot of people can take everything Fox News say at face value you have to be extremely blunt or incredibly persuasive to get the point you're talking about across clearly. Which was what I meant when I referred to Rockstar having a responsibility. The message is important, but they are not doing a good enough job of portraying it.

This is really tough to respond to.

Think about it like a post on GAF that is satirically mocking GamerGate people by stating something truly awful as poe-faced as possible: is it that poster's responsibility to make sure some GG doofus doesn't think they are actually supporting them? How Poe's Law does something have to be before people are appropriately shocked and appalled that they finally believe that it couldn't presented in flat truth?

Satire is more biting the closer it appears to an honestly held position.

And yet, GTA is hacky as can be. It's more obvious than any brand of satire that I've seen. Some of the concern for it seems to come from people who are seriously concerned about "the stupids". Ie- "I am really concerned about how everyone else is going to be affected by this because clearly no one else is as smart as me and can see that this is fantasy/satire/problematic/not-to-be-taken-seriously."

Like...I'm assuming you don't think that playing GTA is making you more numb to women's issues or real life violence in Ferguson or whatever horrible thing. You are just afraid of what it's doing to everyone else.
 
That is not remotely what I said.


Fantastic post overall, but especially this last bit. So few games really deserve the "mature" tag.
Let's be real, the "Mature" rating is mostly coming from blood, nudity, swearing, and heavy violence content. Gone Home is trying to tell a mature story but the game doesn't qualify to bear the "Mature" rating. Storytelling rarely if ever determines a game's rating.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
I honestly think the Housers are "laughing all the way to the bank" and "want it both ways" to be honest.

For the former, I think they want to push the boundaries as far as they can, as obviously as they can, and see what they can get away with as long as the core GTA elements are there. I mean, they even put in the obnoxious-gaming-fat-loser-rascist in GTA5 and the audience reacted with laughs. "That's not me! Let's kill some n****!"

On the other hand, I think that the Housers also think they are pushing their own brand of high-brow art. Clearly, as this thread has demonstrated, there are a lot of people who don't get it. The Housers are going to push and push until they get some sort of reaction, the torture scene is evident of this. If asked, they would probably say it is their responsibility to push the boundaries on gaming; to open the door for the conversation or some shit.

I'm of two minds on this; on one hand, games have pushed violence much much further than any other medium, so have GTA around to do it harder doesn't really grant the medium anything. But when GTA pushes the social commentary angle, including swinging dicks and media and audience mockery, that's good.

The problem with GTA is that while it does a good job of completing its thematic whole (actually being about something, which is super rare for games), it's hacky as can be. One could argue (and I guess I kind of have) that being incredibly loud and obvious hammers home the male id perspective (I WILL be heard), subtlety has a value all its own.

I guess I would be arguing with myself in stating that GTA could be smarter about its satire. Would it be flying in the face of its own forced extremeness? Would it be playing against type of its against type? Would its less be more than its more for the theme it's presenting? I can't even say.

So I agree with you that it could be better, but I do not in that it should be more responsible. It's doing exactly what it should be, and 'better' is debatable, but not with how violent or misogynistic it is; for its theme, it I believe it is the appropriate amount.

First off, let me thank you for the thoughtful and comprehensive reply. It's exactly the kind of discussion I've been fishing for with this thread. So, kudos to you for taking your time to contribute.

I think Rockstar's GTA, and it's own approach on all-encompassing, thematic commentary as opposed to plain, straightforward storytelling, is the result of the critical appraisal bestowed upon them over the years, and the freedom and confidence to "go crazier with it" it gives them each time around. Few gaming critics have lauded any of the games for the reasons you've outlined, and it sure as hell isn't the reason why the games sell so well.

I don't think asking the games to be less hacky is to rob GTA of its essence. They can continue their wholesome, crude, socio-cynical, male-oriented criticism all they like outside of the main script. To be more "responsible" with what they have created over the years is to make better use of that throne the gaming press and audiences have given them, to make better use of the games they've perfected over the years, to tell stories that go beyond what they currently do so adeptly (the meta-theme they weave with the cultural satirical backdrop via the game's sandbox elements).

But maybe that's all they know how to do. Construct satirical worlds, chock full of self aware mockery and cynicism. Maybe that's all they think GTA will ever be good for, like a monster that's grown beyond their control. They can't turn it into any other direction for fear of "dialing it back" in the eyes of their own audiences, oblivious to what their intent was with the games' former direction.
 
That is not remotely what I said.


Fantastic post overall, but especially this last bit. So few games really deserve the "mature" tag.

It's exactly what you said. You are free to disagree with and criticize elements of a work you find offensive or problematic, but claiming that a work isn't art because of those disagreements is insane.

I'm not even going to get into the the idea that many find quite a lot of merit in the character writing, story, and game mechanics in GTA to classify it highly up there alongside other notable works of art - because people have opinions - but I will note the special level of insanity it requires to assume that something that was made by a big company on a big budget isn't art because of those things.
 

kvothe

Member
I know from a business perspective it doesn't matter at all. And Rockstar doesn't HAVE to do anything.

But I'm with you in that I think if you have a piece of media that is undoubtedly going to reach millions of people, you need to have some responsibility about what you're saying to all those people. That's not to say there can't be sex, drugs, or violence. Just that there should be more to it than just having those things for the sake of grittiness.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Such artistic vision from GTA, indeed.


I'd argue that they're business execs trying to appeal to the focus-tested groups and lowest common denominator to make the most $$$ possible, rather than artists, but maybe I'm too cynical... :p

Have you played GTA? Say what you want about them, but they clearly retain a strong identity and vision in their games, to a fault, even.
They're not Ubisoft, and it shows.

Whether you like that style or not, is a different matter, but calling their games "focus tested" in the same fashion a FUSE is, is very misguided.
 
It's not a question of censorship. It's not a question of "Think of the children!" It's a question of "Is this really the best we can do?" Is this what 'storytelling' is in video games? Is this ultimately vapid, wasteful, reckless and immature? Could we replace this schlock with something more meaningful and moral? And by no means is this exclusive to GTAV - this is an ongoing issue with the medium as a whole. There are far too many in the industry ready to hand wave the entire problem. "Video Games are made for adults! Didn't you see the R-rating on the cover?" Then make a game for adults - with the meaning, maturity and nuance an adult should expect.


Not only is everything you've just written here a huge problem because it implies there is a universal moral standard, or that art has to conform to these standards - but holding artistic speech to that kind of standard is by definition censorship. So you're contradicting yourself.

Everything you're implying is subjective. Many could and will disagree with your definitions of "maturity, meaning, and nuance" - I could argue GTA has all of these things.
 

UrbanRats

Member
I mean, that boat stealing mission and the cargo plane were borderline slapstick/spoof. Not exactly standard for a crime epic.

i feel like i've said this a million times now, but GTA is a black, satirical comedy at heart, not a crime epic like the Godfather or even HEAT.
The tone is meant to be slapstick.
 

BiGBoSSMk23

A company being excited for their new game is a huge slap in the face to all the fans that liked their old games.
I didn't see your other response.

I don't think you have a problem with GTA as a whole, and I'm not derailing anything. I'm disagreeing with your assessment that GTAV's tone is inappropriate for the game (and I missed your response to that post) and I also think that in general your arguments seem to be splitting in two directions - agreeing with someone asking if you just wished the writing was more solid in general, but then also lamenting that Rockstar/many other developers' games don't have the same ultra-serious attitude towards violence as some famous films and TV shows. You're also hinging your argument on the concept of responsibility, which implies that you think these games are irresponsible socially considering I've never heard of bad writing called "irresponsible" unless it was actively hurtful (Which, by the way, there's an argument that a lot of GTA's writing is hurtful even if it's trying to be socially aware satire).

Disagreeing with you and trying to parse your arguments is not "derailing" nor do I think you're Jack Thompson. It just seems like your wish for maturity in these games comes at the expense of the more darkly comic tone and over-the-top action, when really these aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of fantastic films that tell well-written stories that are also incredibly violent, stylish, and indulgent. Django Unchained, for example, would be a far less interesting movie without its gallows humor and extreme violence, but it's still very much a full rich story.

I would love for Grand Theft Auto to be better written, as V was kind of all over the place, but I don't think that has to come at the expense of the absurd violence or "Hollywood chasing," as you put it. They tried maudlin and navel-gazing in GTAIV and I personally just don't think it worked. "High brow" is meaningless.

They're not chasing Hollywood by including absurd violence in their games. The part where my argument splits into two points is where I get all prophetic in saying that storytelling in videogames will eventually be delegated solely to the way the player acts within the world, with many possible endings, all relevant and within the game's themes. Hollywood chasing is simply referring to the linearity they try solder with an interactive simulation. My other point is that if they won't take that route (for obvious reasons) then they should polish up their storytelling and character writing. As it stands, it's trashy and beats you over the head many a time with their pushy satire.

I wouldn't compare Rockstar to Quentin Tarantino. Firstly, his medium is vastly different, and his characters are well written from the literal side to the subliminal. They're actually smart dark comedies. Secondly, GTA is dumb on many levels, but as a whole it can call itself "high brow" simply because it's a videogame.

The "irresponsible" argument comes from being the most successful open world game maker, with the game design chops to back it up (unlike the roster of Call of Duty devs), and they squander it with a linear story that's far too fucking dumb to stomach the gameplay that stands in the way of seeing it through to its conclusion, and characters whose violence is handled with such poor taste (unlike Tarantino) that playing the actual game eventually becomes unpleasant.

It's not a matter of "my morals vs your morals". It's "why are you handling your golden egg so carelessly"?
 

Teeth

Member
First off, let me thank you for the thoughtful and comprehensive reply. It's exactly the kind of discussion I've been fishing for with this thread. So, kudos to you for taking your time to contribute.

I think Rockstar's GTA, and it's own approach on all-encompassing, thematic commentary as opposed to plain, straightforward storytelling, is the result of the critical appraisal bestowed upon them over the years, and the freedom and confidence to "go crazier with it" it gives them each time around. Few gaming critics have lauded any of the games for the reasons you've outlined, and it sure as hell isn't the reason why the games sell so well.

I don't think asking the games to be less hacky is to rob GTA of its essence. They can continue their wholesome, crude, socio-cynical, male-oriented criticism all they like outside of the main script. To be more "responsible" with what they have created over the years is to make better use of that throne the gaming press and audiences have given them, to make better use of the games they've perfected over the years, to tell stories that go beyond what they currently do so adeptly (the meta-theme they weave with the cultural satirical backdrop via the game's sandbox elements).

But maybe that's all they know how to do. Construct satirical worlds, chock full of self aware mockery and cynicism. Maybe that's all they think GTA will ever be good for, like a monster that's grown beyond their control. They can't turn it into any other direction for fear of "dialing it back" in the eyes of their own audiences, oblivious to what their intent was with the games' former direction.


Being a person who doesn't like GTA games, I can't really disagree. I think they should move on from the hacky satire and Male Id themes because, frankly, it's been done. I don't mean by other games or movies or whatever (nothing else is really like GTA), I mean it's been done by GTA and they need to find a new path. I also don't think that GTA5 needed to continue down the route, as GTA4 was bloated and filled to the gills with its themes and was refined enough to be the final statement on that material.

But games are a business (and so is art, it always has been) so the GTAs will continue in perpetuity. So if they decided to do more progressive stories, with better characters and toned down violence, they would find themselves in quite the ludo-narrative and zeitgeist pickle.

How do you marry the wanton violence and destruction able to be wreaked by the user to any sort of narrative? That's the main key. You can go the Saint's Row avenue, and make everything a fucking joke, or you can go the Mafia 2 avenue and restrict what the user can do to prevent that sort of mayhem. Or you can go full on new-games-zeitgeist and make it a complete open world simulator without a directed story, but I really think the audience would find that unpalatable.

I honestly think you could take out the hookers-heal-you, women-are-bitches, torture-scene-dwelling and the audience wouldn't care (on the whole...there would obviously be checklist forum dwellers complaining about 'features' the new game doesn't include that the old ones did), but that wouldn't stop the mayhem. And the mayhem is what GTA is about.

So maybe Rockstar should use that tech and money and make better written games in different worlds (which could be argued that they have, with RDR and Bully and LA Noire) and just let GTA be what it is.

The modern city isn't capable of delivering total raging freedom and still having a grounded story; there is too much dogma unless you constantly point out the hypocrisy.

But if no other GTA was made or they went in an entirely different direction, you wouldn't get a complaint out of me.

SIDE NOTE: I didn't mention it in my previous posts, but I should also state that a bunch of the Male Id thematic material that I described in the GTA games likely is unintentional. I do not believe that an artist needs to prescribe everything that gets analyzed or noted in thematic analysis for it to be "true". Context can be construed or resonance can be applied inadvertently and still improve the assessment of piece. Just because the Housers didn't intend for certain aspects to reinforce the themes, doesn't mean that the piece is lesser because of it.
 

UrbanRats

Member
Let's be real, the "Mature" rating is mostly coming from blood, nudity, swearing, and heavy violence content. Gone Home is trying to tell a mature story but the game doesn't qualify to bear the "Mature" rating. Storytelling rarely if ever determines a game's rating.
Because that's the only thing you're going to be able to determine (and need to determine) with a rating.

i would love to see a board that has to decide which game is "mature" and which is "juvenile", would be definitely a sight to behold.
Ultimately, that's a very subjective field to walk through.

Blood and tits are much easier to classify and rate for age appropriate audiences.
 
They're not chasing Hollywood by including absurd violence in their games. The part where my argument splits into two points is where I get all prophetic in saying that storytelling in videogames will eventually be delegated solely to the way the player acts within the world, with many possible endings, all relevant and within the game's themes. Hollywood chasing is simply referring to the linearity they try solder with an interactive simulation. My other point is that if they won't take that route (for obvious reasons) then they should polish up their storytelling and character writing. As it stands, it's trashy and beats you over the head many a time with their pushy satire.

I wouldn't compare Rockstar to Quentin Tarantino. Firstly, his medium is vastly different, and his characters are well written from the literal side to the subliminal. They're actually smart dark comedies. Secondly, GTA is dumb on many levels, but as a whole it can call itself "high brow" simply because it's a videogame.

The "irresponsible" argument comes from being the most successful open world game maker, with the game design chops to back it up (unlike the roster of Call of Duty devs), and they squander it with a linear story that's far too fucking dumb to stomach the gameplay that stands in the way of seeing it through to its conclusion, and characters whose violence is handled with such poor taste (unlike Tarantino) that playing the actual game eventually becomes unpleasant.

It's not a matter of "my morals vs your morals". It's "why are you handling your golden egg so carelessly"?

Why can't we just have a "trashy", "pushy", over-the-top dark comedy that lets you do horrible things without affecting the story?
 
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