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[crazyrabbits]

It's optional, the modder can put his work for free and pray someone donates a penny for it like the last 20 years or put a price on it and get something in return.

To be fair, Nexus has done a very poor job of encouraging people to donate (or even making the donation buttons prominent). If anything, this whole debacle will make people support modders more (from a donation standpoint) than they did before.

 

[Jonneh3003]

I don't see a problem with people getting paid for their work and I hope this encourages more ambitious mods, just as long as people know what to make paid and what to make free.

 

[cdyhybrid]

It's optional, the modder can put his work for free and pray someone donates a penny for it like the last 20 years or put a price on it and get something in return.

I know 25% sucks but it's Bethesda, maybe other developers or publishers are more colaborative with the modding scene and make that % bigger.

It's optional right now.

You have to sell the game in the first place. You need to pass cert on consoles as well. Mods aren't as popular as people think. There isn't going to be crazy money here. Valve makes lots on 'hats' but it's a tiny drop compared to the volume of money in the sale of actual games.

Skyrim and Oblivion sold just fine despite releasing broken. It's not going to matter. Passing cert on consoles isn't a very high bar to pass.

It doesn't have to be crazy money that can be made - profits are profits. The niche status of PC modding is the reason I think this so terrible - there's really nothing the community can do if Valve decides to fuck them over, there aren't enough people to actually do anything significant about it.

 

[EviLore]

The worst element here is probably the "pay what you want" option, which is set up to feel like a Humble Bundle sort of extra donation to the developer, but they're only seeing 25% of the extra money you throw in and you can't adjust the ratios. Having to pay for a mod will make you far less likely to donate to the developer, but if they're setting a minimum price at, say, $1, it doesn't make any sense at all to bump it up to what you feel the real value is since barely any of it would go where you want it to go.

 

[vcc]

I don't see a problem with people getting paid for their work and I hope this encourages more ambitious mods, just as long as people know what to make paid and what to make free.

I think the rise of the indie game has already made a dent on the mod scene. After all why spend 700 hours making something when your reward is acclaim; when you can sink 700 hours and all that time into making a indie game with something like unity or go on and make it a product like ice frog.

 

[CookTrain]

The worst element here is probably the "pay what you want" option, which is set up to feel like a Humble Bundle sort of extra donation to the developer, but they're only seeing 25% of the extra money you throw in and you can't adjust the ratios. Having to pay for a mod will make you far less likely to donate to the developer, but if they're setting a minimum price at, say, $1, it doesn't make any sense at all to bump it up to what you feel the real value is since barely any of it would go where you want it to go.

Easily solved. Pay four times what you think it's worth!

 

[Dwalls]

So what happens when I go back a decade later to try Skyrim and I want to mod it. Can I still download massive modpacks that'll install everything I need to make the game look and play way better or will I have to piecemeal together a set of mods I need to pay a premium for individually at which point I will need to test all of them for compatibility issues with no hope of fixing them myself. Will the workshop still be up and functioning in a decade? One of the cool things I like about morrowind which I recently played through again was that I could download a massive pack of graphical and gameplay enhancements that made it a far better looking and playing game than I remember it being. Is that out of the window for Skyrim / future workshop titles now?

 

[jmga]

So let's imagine modders got 100% for a second here. Then they would be getting paid for content they didn't create and for services they have nothing to do with! Quite the dilemma we have here.

I haven't said 100%, but it would be pretty more fair than 25%.

But, what content are modders selling that they have not created?

In fact, mods give indirect sales to games, which is the only paid game creators should get.

 

[Sendou]

The worst element here is probably the "pay what you want" option, which is set up to feel like a Humble Bundle sort of extra donation to the developer, but they're only seeing 25% of the extra money you throw in and you can't adjust the ratios. Having to pay for a mod will make you far less likely to donate to the developer, but if they're setting a minimum price at, say, $1, it doesn't make any sense at all to bump it up to what you feel the real value is since barely any of it would go where you want it to go.

Completely agreed. I wish they would be more open about the amount of money going to the actual developer of that mod. Like outright saying "Pay 1€ of which 0.25€ goes to the original mod author".

I haven't said 100%, but it would be pretty more fair than 25%.

But, what content are modders selling that they have not created?

Well the way they call them mods should clue you in. They sell work that isn't stand-alone.

 

[crazyrabbits]

There's a post on Reddit (the author attempted to delete it, but the content is still there) that talks about what it was like to get involved with the program in the first place:

http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/

I would like to address the current situation regarding Arissa, and Art of the Catch, an animated fishing mod scripted by myself and animated by Aqqh.

It now lives in modding history as the first paid mod to be removed due to a copyright dispute. Recent articles on Kotaku and Destructiod have positioned me as a content thief. Of course, the truth is more complex than that.

I will now reveal some information about some internal discussions that have occurred at Valve in the month leading up to this announcement, more than you've heard anywhere else.

I'll start with the human factor. Imagine you wake up one morning, and sitting in your inbox is an email directly from Valve, with a Bethesda staff member cc'd. And they want YOU, yes, you, to participate in a new and exciting program. Well, shit. What am I supposed to say? These kinds of opportunities happen once in a lifetime. It was a very persuasive and attractive situation.

We were given about a month and a half to prepare our content. As anyone here knows, large DLC-sized mods don't happen in a month and a half. During this time, we were required to not speak to anyone about this program. And when a company like Valve or Bethesda tells you not to do something, you tend to listen.

I knew this would cause backlash, trust me. But I also knew that, with the right support and infrastructure in place, there was an opportunity to take modding to "the next level", where there are more things like Falskaar in the world because the incentive was there to do it. The boundary between "what I'm willing to do as a hobby" and "what I'm willing to do if someone paid me to do it" shifts, and more quality content gets produced. That to me sounded great for everyone. Hobbyists will continue to be hobbyists, while those that excel can create some truly magnificent work. In the case of Arissa, there are material costs associated with producing that mod (studio time, sound editing, and so on). To be able to support Arissa professionally also sounded great.

Things internally stayed rather positive and exciting until some of us discovered that "25% Revenue Share" meant 25% to the modder, not to Valve / Bethesda. This sparked a long internal discussion. My key argument to Bethesda (putting my own head on the chopping block at the time) was that this model incentivizes small, cheap to produce items (time-wise) than it does the large, full-scale mods that this system has the opportunity of championing. It does not reward the best and the biggest. But at the heart of it, the argument came down to this: How much would you pay for front-page Steam coverage? How much would you pay to use someone else's successful IP (with nearly no restrictions) for a commercial purpose? I know indie developers that would sell their houses for such an opportunity. And 25%, when someone else is doing the marketing, PR, brand building, sales, and so on, and all I have to do is "make stuff", is actually pretty attractive. Is it fair? No. But it was an experiment I was willing to at least try.

....

Art of the Catch required the download of a separate animation package, which was available for free, and contained an FNIS behavior file. Art of the Catch will function without this download, but any layman can of course see that a major component of it's enjoyment required FNIS.

After a discussion with Fore, I made the decision to pull Art of the Catch down myself. (It was not removed by a staff member) Fore and I have talked since and we are OK.

I have also requested that the pages for Art of the Catch and Arissa be completely taken down. Valve's stance is that they "cannot" completely remove an item from the Workshop if it is for sale, only allow it to be marked as unpurchaseable. I feel like I have been left to twist in the wind by Valve and Bethesda.

In light of all of the above, and with the complete lack of moderation control over the hundreds of spam and attack messages I have received on Steam and off, I am making the decision to leave the curated Workshop behind. I will be refunding all PayPal donations that have occurred today and yesterday.

I am also considering removing my content from the Nexus. Why? The problem is that Robin et al, for perfectly good political reasons, have positioned themselves as essentially the champions of free mods and that they would never implement a for-pay system. However, The Nexus is a listed Service Provider on the curated Workshop, and they are profiting from Workshop sales. They are saying one thing, while simultaneously taking their cut. I'm not sure I'm comfortable supporting that any longer. I may just host my mods on my own site for anyone who is interested.

....

Real-time update - I was just contacted by Valve's lawyer. He stated that they will not remove the content unless "legally compelled to do so", and that they will make the file visible only to currently paid users. I am beside myself with anger right now as they try to tell me what I can do with my own content. The copyright situation with Art of the Catch is shades of grey, but in Arissa 2.0's case, it's black and white; that's 100% mine and Griefmyst's work, and I should be able to dictate its distribution if I so choose. Unbelievable.

What a clusterfuck.

 

[Almighty]

I guess on this whole cut thing twenty-five percent sounds like shit to me, but I am not a modder so I don't really care. Honestly it seems strange(unless you are a modder) that people are even trying to make this a big deal. If they don't care that that work is valued at twenty-five cents on the dollar then why should I?

Though I do agree that that profit split is probably going to encourage more small mods then the big overhauls.

 

[theultimo]

I think the rise of the indie game has already made a dent on the mod scene. After all why spend 700 hours making something when your reward is acclaim; when you can sink 700 hours and all that time into making a indie game with something like unity or go on and make it a product like ice frog.

The mobile revolution as well. Pop a f2p game with ads or iap, get enough people to get it, and rake in revenue. Shoot, I helped with an opengl driver on one and got contract funds for a much larger share.

 

[LurkerPrime]

So what happens when I go back a decade later to try Skyrim and I want to mod it. Can I still download massive modpacks that'll install everything I need to make the game look and play way better or will I have to piecemeal together a set of mods I need to pay a premium for individually at which point I will need to test all of them for compatibility issues with no hope of fixing them myself. Will the workshop still be up and functioning in a decade? One of the cool things I like about morrowind which I recently played through again was that I could download a massive pack of graphical and gameplay enhancements that made it a far better looking and playing game than I remember it being. Is that out of the window for Skyrim / future workshop titles now?

By that point Valve will have released SteamOS V to disasterous response, and bought out Ubisoft to handle their always-onle DRM solution while their pet, referred to only as "Ea," makes more hats for TF2.

But, to answer your question, I can definitely say that - assuming your computer can even run this old software - Steam's services will still probably be available for this content.

There's a post on Reddit (the author attempted to delete it, but the content is still there) that talks about what it was like to get involved with the program in the first place:

http://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/33qcaj/the_experiment_has_failed_my_exit_from_the/



What a clusterfuck.

Wait, why'd Chesko delete his Reddit account? Anyone know?

Nevermind, courtesy of the thread about the reddit post is this:

I'll miss Chesko's work.

 

[CookTrain]

I haven't said 100%, but it would be pretty more fair than 25%.

But, what content are modders selling that they have not created?

Modders are selling into a market they have not created. Yes, they've created a tool, but they've created it on the back of a behemoth. That link above from the DayZ chap made it in a way that resonated (with me, at least)... Your mod is selling itself as a slice of Skyrim. It's basically piggybacking that idea.

Who knows what percentage people think is right for that? I do actually think the percentage is the smallest issue of this and I'd be chuffed to get 25% of any proceeds from my hobbyist tribute to a much larger project

 

[vcc]

Skyrim and Oblivion sold just fine despite releasing broken. It's not going to matter. Passing cert on consoles isn't a very high bar to pass.

It doesn't have to be crazy money that can be made - profits are profits. The niche status of PC modding is the reason I think this so terrible - there's really nothing the community can do if Valve decides to fuck them over, there aren't enough people to actually do anything significant about it.

The terms don't seem that off. I think it's gamers sticker shock at how little a derivative creator can get. I think people massively under value the publisher and distributors value in the transaction. 25% is more than the cut a major studio would get off a physical retail game. In that system there are 4 players. Publisher, Studio, Platform holder, retailer.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

So let's imagine modders got 100% for a second here. Then they would be getting paid for content they didn't create and for services they have nothing to do with! Quite the dilemma we have here.

I don't get this argument. They're using, in this case Skyrim, as a base, and adding things to it that weren't originally available. This requires programming. Sure if the mod was as simple as 'change item spawns', you could argue they didn't create any content. Like you said. But alot of good mods, add gear-they add hairstyles, they simplify character creation by adding good looking character templates, things that didn't exist in the base game. Something that was created by a modder.

 

[Krejlooc]

It's optional right now.

it will always be optional. What you are suggesting - that somehow these entities would find a way to completely remove the ability to use non-pay mods - is outlandish. Why? Because that's already how it is for an enormous number of games with vibrant modding communities. Many of the games with huge mods have no modding tools released, modding these games is prohibited in many TOSes. The people releasing these free mods are already going against publishers wishes. Should only paid mods be allowed, a hacker-lead underground mod subculture would form like the one that already exists.

Hacking and modding typically go hand in hand. The cultures are extremely similar with lots of overlap.

 

[Aselith]

Can't wait for steam to let me sell my music while taking 75% of the money earned because they're handling distribution. Oh no wait, I can sell it on several other marketplaces that offer far better compensation. Or I could sell it on my own website and keep 100% of the money. Too bad that doesn't exist for videogames anymore.

Well I mean you could sell a game you made for a 30% cut... dot dot dot

 

[jmga]

Well the way they call them mods should clue you in. They sell work that isn't stand-alone.

Most are, all those skins, armors, weapons, etc are not included in the game.

 

[Sendou]

I don't get this argument. They're using, in this case Skyrim, as a base, and adding things to it that weren't originally available. This requires programming. Sure if the mod was as simple as 'change item spawns', you could argue they didn't create any content. Like you said. But alot of good mods, add gear-they add hairstyles, they simplify character creation by adding good looking character templates, things that didn't exist in the base game. Something that was created by a modder.

I never said mods add no new content.

Most are, all those skins, armors, weapons, etc are not included in the game.

How is buying a Skyrim sword or whatever stand-alone? Am I speaking in a confusing manner here? Modders create new content. It just that in contrast to creating new games altogether they create something that only can exist because someone put (a much larger) amount of work into creating the work (in this case Skyrim) they're utilizing. Be it the actual game and the assets in it or just the Skyrim brand.

 

[CookTrain]

Most are, all those skins, armors, weapons, etc are not included in the game.

They're still not standalone though. Download a Goku mod for Skyrim and don't put it in Skyrim... you don't have a lot going on.

There is value derived from having your novelty character/item/scene/GUI in this massive fantasy sprawl.

 

[vcc]

I haven't said 100%, but it would be pretty more fair than 25%.

But, what content are modders selling that they have not created?

In fact, mods give indirect sales to games, which is the only paid game creators should get.

I disagree, 25% on something you made that heavily leans on what someone else made seems fair. A actual studio may see a smaller slice than 25% on a game they make. Especially on a game using other peoples IP. I think the problem is gamers have no perspective and have no idea of how the business works.

 

[Dorsal Axe]

Honestly, the worst thing about this whole sorry saga is how they went behind everyone's backs, arranged this in secret, knowing it would piss people off before just dropping it on everyone (meanwhile with some claiming to be paragons of the modding community). The way they've gone about it is so insidious, though not surprising given the previous behavior of a lot of these particular individuals. And it's the way this has been handled that is going to do permanent, long-lasting damage to the Skyrim community. Though perhaps it's a good thing that some true colours have been exposed at last. The trust is gone forever though.

 

[cdyhybrid]

The terms don't seem that off. I think it's gamers sticker shock at how little a derivative creator can get. I think people massively under value the publisher and distributors value in the transaction. 25% is more than the cut a major studio would get off a physical retail game. In that system there are 4 players. Publisher, Studio, Platform holder, retailer.

I'd be much less annoyed if they were just upfront about trying to get a cut instead of trying to frame it as doing something nice for the mod creators.

it will always be optional. What you are suggesting - that somehow these entities would find a way to completely remove the ability to use non-pay mods - is outlandish. Why? Because that's already how it is for an enormous number of games with vibrant modding communities. Many of the games with huge mods have no modding tools released, modding these games is prohibited in many TOSes. The people releasing these free mods are already going against publishers wishes. Should only paid mods be allowed, a hacker-lead underground mod subculture would form like the one that already exists.

Hacking and modding typically go hand in hand. The cultures are extremely similar with lots of overlap.

Again, when is Half Life 3 coming out Gabe? Because the shot-callers at Valve and Bethesda are the only ones who can say that with any degree of validity at the moment.

Secondly, those enormous amounts of games 1) function as they are expected to without requiring mods, and 2) have not built up their brand and community around modding the game. However, the Elder Scrolls series does not, and has.

 

[Krejlooc]

Again, when is Half Life 3 coming out Gabe? Because the shot-callers at Valve and Bethesda are the only ones who can say that with any degree of validity at the moment.

So your argument is that the will somehow be able to lock their games down in a way that nobody will ever defeat?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

 

[CookTrain]

So your argument is that the will somehow be able to lock their games down in a way that nobody will ever defeat?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

I think the argument is more that two days ago, most people didn't consider the notion that they might try.

 

[Aselith]

1) function as they are expected to without requiring mods, and 2) have not built up their brand and community around modding the game. However, the Elder Scrolls series does not, and has.

Champion tier hyperbole

 

[BreezyLimbo]

I never said mods add no new content.

This is what you said-

So let's imagine modders got 100% for a second here. Then they would be getting paid for content they didn't create and for services they have nothing to do with! Quite the dilemma we have here.

You can play semantics all you want, but this content wouldn't exist without the modders work into creating it. Content that modders create. So yes, in essence they do have to do with those 'services'. Sure, you can argue that it wouldn't exist without Skyrim, but I guess art wouldn't exist without paint or a canvas too when you put it that way.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think the argument is more that two days ago, most people didn't consider the notion that they might try.

Two days ago, that notion was near universal.

 

[CookTrain]

Two days ago, that notion was near universal.

You'll have to link me to the torrents of people thinking that Valve were working towards a walled garden of modding at the exclusion of all else.

 

[Dwalls]

Well I mean you could sell a game you made for a 30% cut... dot dot dot

I'm planning to, if I ever manage to get myself past the programmer art phase that is. I'm kind of confused about the double triple dots thing you did there though.

 

[MUnited83]

Can't wait for steam to let me sell my music while taking 75% of the money earned because they're handling distribution. Oh no wait, I can sell it on several other marketplaces that offer far better compensation. Or I could sell it on my own website and keep 100% of the money. Too bad that doesn't exist for videogames anymore.

Unless your music can only be listened to by putting other artist CD playing first, then you'd get the standard cut, which is 70℅ to you a 30% to valve

 

[theultimo]

So your argument is that the will somehow be able to lock their games down in a way that nobody will ever defeat?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

You don't need to do that. Look at the Apple Store. If you don't use their iap, it's not going on the store. I can see in the future mods available only by steam workshop, with a steam check to verify it. There will be other ways to mod prob, but it will be considered piracy or could get your account banned. It just sets a very bad president going forward.

 

[cdyhybrid]

So your argument is that the will somehow be able to lock their games down in a way that nobody will ever defeat?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

So you're saying it's cool if they put everything behind a paywall because you can just pirate/hack it? That seems pretty silly to me. I'd prefer to mod my game legally.

Champion tier hyperbole

Champion-tier response.

Sorry, I expect games to not crash due to bugs, saves to not be corrupted, and quests that are in the game to be completable. Guess that makes me Captain Delusional!

 

[Sendou]

This is what you said-


You can play semantics all you want, but this content wouldn't exist without the modders work into creating it. Content that modders create. So yes, in essence they do have to do with those 'services'. Sure, you can argue that it wouldn't exist without Skyrim, but I guess art wouldn't exist without paint or a canvas too when you put it that way.

What I meant with that is that they would be getting paid for doing work they didn't do that is making Skyrim. Like nobody would care about any of those mods if Skyrim wasn't a thing. Same with mods in general. Some mods evolve beyond the game they were originally designed for but these are very far in between. Don't like it? Well make a new Skyrim. Same with any art that is modificating or combining existing piece of arts.

 

[Gluka]

From what I've seen, a lot of people mod exclusively out of their love for the game and hate the idea of people profiting off of their work. Maybe not as many who would like to profit off of it, but probably enough for it to potentially be someone important.

For instance, I could see an integral mod being released under some prohibitive license and causing issues for the for-profit authors. The corroborative nature of modding, especially in Bethesda games, also makes enforcing ownership claims a really difficult problem to address.

This could be great for big, content-heavy projects that are just unfeasible to do for free. On the flip side, it could also fracture the community big time.

I'm really curious and kind of nervous to see how this develops.

 

[reckless]

So your argument is that the will somehow be able to lock their games down in a way that nobody will ever defeat?

Ha. Ha. Ha.

So your alternative to getting screwed over by a monopoly is to go pirate stuff.

Yep sounds great for everyone involved.

 

[vcc]

I'd be much less annoyed if they were just upfront about trying to get a cut instead of trying to frame it as doing something nice for the mod creators.
.

Enabling a business model if the modder wants does seem okay. Ask any indie dev at the time required to launch a game on a platform and manage advertising and distribution. It's not really as slanted a business deal as you'd think. For 75% of potential revenues, you don't have to worry about the publisher chasing you for using their IP, you don't have to worry about distribution, you don't have to do any side advertising, and you don't don't have to do stuff with a payment processor. If I made mod and wanted to sell it completely separately I do have to expend the payment processor to take 30%, worry about the games publisher chasing me down for a cut, have to actually recruit customers, and pay for bandwidth.

 

[Krejlooc]

You'll have to link me to the torrents of people thinking that Valve were working towards a walled garden of modding at the exclusion of all else.

valve and bethesda represent a tiny fraction of total games released. Again - the vast majority of games which are modded regularly have no official mod support at all. Let's take an example of a game I'm familiar with modding - Sonic Generations. There is no mod support for that game. The entire modding community around that game is built entirely off the backs of hackers. The TOS for the game actually explicitly forbids modifications.

A nice breakdown of how the modding scene for that game actually arose:

http://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Generations

So your alternative to getting screwed over by a monopoly is to go pirate stuff.

Yep sounds great for everyone involved.

I never advocated piracy. That isn't even close to what I was talking about.

 

[EatinOlives]

This feels like a concept that is fine, in theory. Modders should get paid for their hard work, and nobody should feel forced to give away something for free simply because "it's the standard".

However, there are several issues with this particular implementation, and several more with the way some modders will inevitably implement it themselves. First off, and this is something I covered in the other Skyrim-related thread, is the fact that the decentralized nature of Valve's structure means that nearly all of these new features have the nasty caveat of "...and then users will just regulate everything themselves", most probably due to the fact that these projects are done by small teams who have the ability to place these features on Steam, but not the ability add new employees to the company's payroll to oversee regulation of these new systems.

The issues with legality are all but inevitable. The modding scene is extremely collaborative, even in terms of "passive" collaboration where people freely take open-source mods and integrate them into their own open-source mods as they create their own larger vision or iteration of the same basic concept. It's this free-to-access nature that lets modding flow from one person, one iteration, and one concept to the next. Any person at any time can pick up the torch and provide a new spin or advancement to the same project.

That's not to say people who want to be compensated for their work are bad, greedy, or "against free modding". Those modders are well within their rights to charge or do what they wish with their mods. But the real issue begins with a paid mod that depends on the work of a free mod. It's easy to see how this wouldn't be a problem if someone's paid mod was built from scratch, but what happens when someone who wants to be compensated for their mod work is using some portion of a different mod that was explicitly open source? Would the author of the original work really be OK with that? Because they don't really desire to make money off their work, does that mean they wouldn't or shouldn't be bothered when someone takes some part of their work, modifies it further, then sells it?

Those aren't questions that are answered easily, and those aren't questions that Valve has even bothered to ask, judging by the fact that they hoisted something like this on the Workshop without actually having figured out half of these kinks.

The worst element here is probably the "pay what you want" option, which is set up to feel like a Humble Bundle sort of extra donation to the developer, but they're only seeing 25% of the extra money you throw in and you can't adjust the ratios. Having to pay for a mod will make you far less likely to donate to the developer, but if they're setting a minimum price at, say, $1, it doesn't make any sense at all to bump it up to what you feel the real value is since barely any of it would go where you want it to go.

Exactly. Their "pay what you want" option isn't really "Pay what you want", it's "pay something and we'll decide how much goes to who". Part of Humble Bundle's appeal was letting people choose to whom their money went to. All to developers? All to HB? All to the charity? Any combination of the above? Go for it, you're the one paying, you have the choice.

Valve's doesn't work that way. I want to give $5 to X modder for his really awesome work except I can't. Only $1.25 will actually go to to the modder, the rest is Valve's/Bethesda's. Literally the only way I can give more money to the modder is by HAVING to give Valve/Bethesda even more money in the first place. It's really sleazy.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if modders who pick the "pay what you want" option eventually just make their mod free, then include a donation link in the mod's description. They at least would get far more than a measly 25% for any and all donations.

 

[jmga]

I disagree, 25% on something you made that heavily leans on what someone else made seems fair. A actual studio may see a smaller slice than 25% on a game they make. Especially on a game using other peoples IP. I think the problem is gamers have no perspective and have no idea of how the business works.

Let's see, if you are a developer.

Unreal Engine 4 has initially no cost plus 5% of your revenue.
Skyrim costs money to every user that buys a mod plus 75% of your revenue.
Additionally, if your mod is good it will sell many Skyrim copies, and you won't see a single 1% of that.

Savage capitalism is getting out of hand.

 

[Aselith]

I'm planning to, if I ever manage to get myself past the programmer art phase that is. I'm kind of confused about the double triple dots thing you did there though.

Because you said that you could go somewhere else and find a "place that takes much less of a cut!"

You don't even have to go to a different website so it's kind of embarrassing for you to rage about the cut Valve takes when they're taking less than they would on a commercial product. The extra dots were for extra cringe.

 

[cdyhybrid]

valve and bethesda represent a tiny fraction of total games released. Again - the vast majority of games which are modded regularly have no official mod support at all. Let's take an example of a game I'm familiar with modding - Sonic Generations. There is no mod support for that game. The entire modding community around that game is built entirely off the backs of hackers. The TOS for the game actually explicitly forbids modifications.

A nice breakdown of how the modding scene for that game actually arose:

http://info.sonicretro.org/SCHG:Sonic_Generations



I never advocated piracy. That isn't even close to what I was talking about.

This thread isn't about those other games, and I don't know why you keep bringing them up.

Skyrim (and potentially future Bethesda games) is exclusive to Steam, and has one of the most vibrant modding communities out there. Comparisons to other games are apples to oranges unless you zoom out far enough to miss the point.

 

[DMiz]

By that point Valve will have released SteamOS V to disasterous response, and bought out Ubisoft to handle their always-onle DRM solution while their pet, referred to only as "Ea," makes more hats for TF2.

But, to answer your question, I can definitely say that - assuming your computer can even run this old software - Steam's services will still probably be available for this content.

Wait, why'd Chesko delete his Reddit account? Anyone know?

Nevermind, courtesy of the thread about the reddit post is this:

I'll miss Chesko's work.

Out of this entire situation, this is probably what angers me the most.

Chesko was gearing up to put some finishing touches on his Campfire mod, as well as updating Frostfall to reflect some performance changes he had found while figuring out how to do multi-threading in Papyrus (Skyrim's scripting language). Because of this debacle, there is a chance he might never put up his finished work on those projects on the Nexus or anywhere else. For those of us who love the modding scene for the mods, this is an unfortunate loss.

He never intended to put his work up on the curated workshop forever; as stated (though we will never truly know if this was the case), he was hoping to put up his work as timed exclusives on the Workshop, and then eventually siphon them back on to the Nexus.

Now, because of this, Valve and Bethesda have effectively hung him up to dry, which has driven him away from this community. His work is legendary, but now - thanks to this - his legacy is likely going to be as one of the first authors who wanted to try out this payment system and is ultimately getting burned.

My stance is that donating to mod authors is fantastic, but having a paywall makes the modding scene much more difficult to navigate for users. Chesko made some strong arguments about why a payment model may benefit the scene, but I still don't think the way that Valve and Bethesda went about it was the best way. What's worse, they have decided to let one of their most prominent content creators be wrung out for this as the peanut gallery sees fit.

He will, hopefully, return to the scene one day.

 

[Krejlooc]

This thread isn't about those other games, and I don't know why you keep bringing them up.

Skyrim (and potentially future Bethesda games) is exclusive to Steam, and has one of the most vibrant modding communities out there. Comparisons to other games are apples to oranges unless you zoom out far enough to miss the point.

Because what I say about those games also applies to skyrim.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

What I meant with that is that they would be getting paid for doing work they didn't do that is making Skyrim. Like nobody would care about any of those mods if Skyrim wasn't a thing.

Yeah, nobody would care about the mods in question because they wouldn't exist if Skyrim didn't exist. That's uh, that's great logic. Unless you mean that people only care because the Elder Scrolls has a big modding scene? Because mods have existed since the days of Morrowind, even before that. And nobody made moves to monetize them. And *gasp* people cared about those mods! Crazy I know.

Same with mods in general. Some mods evolve beyond the game they were originally designed for but these are very far in between. Don't like it? Well make a new Skyrim. Same with any art that is modificating or combining existing piece of arts.

Yes everyone, stop making mods because your games aren't 'things' like Skyrim. Because mods that have been made for the past 15 years have been made for games that 'weren't a thing' and just because one company(Valve) started monetizing them, it's all over.

 

[cdyhybrid]

Because what I say about those games also applies to skyrim.

To a much different degree. Those Sonic games didn't require hacks/mods to let you finish all the levels in the vanilla game.

 

[Krejlooc]

To a much different degree. Those Sonic games didn't require hacks/mods to let you finish all the levels in the vanilla game.

No, to the exact same degree. If the need for a mod arises to such importance that you claim, and a direct avenue to provide it free doesn't exist, what has always happened will still happen - people will crack the shit wide open and still release it for free.

And I played skyrim through without problems. You are spitting hyperbole.

At the very least, your alternatives would be illegal.

just like they are right now.

 

[reckless]

I never advocated piracy. That isn't even close to what I was talking about.

At the very least, your alternatives would be illegal.

 

[Kiru]

Oh boy, someone already created a torrent with all paid Mods.