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[exmachina64]

I've been really enjoying the show exactly. But has the show said why exactly the public housing had to be desegregated? I think I missed it.

I was always under the (most likely wrong) impression that public housing was usually only built in poorer areas of town. Why was it being brought to this middle class area?

A New York Times article regarding the trial and the decision from 1985.

Historically in the US, housing discrimination was used to keep minorities out of white areas even after the 14th amendment was passed. Public housing doesn't specifically need to be built in poorer areas, municipalities have used zoning laws to keep areas segregated due to concerns over NIMBYism, crime and poverty. Crime and poverty would be lower and educational attainment would be higher if these areas were desegregated, but otherwise "non-racist" whites have resisted the notion.

The Civil Rights Act was meant to end this practice, but it still occurs today. The events in Yonkers this miniseries covers was a landmark defeat of this type of segregation in modern times.

For modern occurrences, This American Life recently covered how it persists. Parts 1 and 2

 

[RastaMentality]

A New York Times article regarding the trial and the decision from 1985.

Historically in the US, housing discrimination was used to keep minorities out of white areas even after the 14th amendment was passed. Public housing doesn't specifically need to be built in poorer areas, municipalities have used zoning laws to keep areas segregated due to concerns over NIMBYism, crime and poverty. Crime and poverty would be lower and educational attainment would be higher if these areas were desegregated, but otherwise "non-racist" whites have resisted the notion.

The Civil Rights Act was meant to end this practice, but it still occurs today. The events in Yonkers this miniseries covers was a landmark defeat of this type of segregation in modern times.

For modern occurrences, This American Life recently covered how it persists. Parts 1 and 2

Thank you very much. Really informative. The AL episode is great. I've seen people say we should put public housing only where homeless people are but I feel that's only gonna let those areas fall into more mess.

 

[exmachina64]

I've seen people say we should put public housing only where homeless people are but I feel that's only gonna let those areas fall into more mess.

An unfortunate NIMBYism.

 

[lednerg]

If you had doubts after the first act, then they were silenced after this second one.

 

[KingKong]

why are they airing 2 episodes a week? as far as I can tell there's nothing else premiering on HBO any time soon

 

[exmachina64]

why are they airing 2 episodes a week? as far as I can tell there's nothing else premiering on HBO any time soon

Filling the prime time block?

 

[lednerg]

why are they airing 2 episodes a week? as far as I can tell there's nothing else premiering on HBO any time soon

Three act structure with bathroom breaks. No, seriously.

 

[RastaMentality]

fuck. That scene with them getting into the car with the constant thumping was riveting. Really effective stuff. If anyone has doubts after the first act like lednerg said above then your concerns will definitely be silenced.

This entire show is just devastating.

 

[dead souls]

Goddamn phenomenal once again this week.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

We need to start placing bets on what Springsteen song will close the show.

 

[exmachina64]

ProPublica published an interview with David Simon regarding the show's creation and the issue of segregation in America. It's a nice, informative read.

 

[Blackhead]

Filling the prime time block?

It starts airing at 8 pm though

Spallone is the most evil character in TV history...

The banality of evil

 

[layzie1989]

Spallone is the most evil character in TV history...

 

[gdt]

Part 3 was fantastic. Simon and Isaac (the whole cast really) in full force.

Haggis does a great job here too.

 

[Tugatrix]

This is damn fine television, in the end like Wasicsko said it's all fear, I might add ignorance creates that fear

 

[gdt]

Nick's words in episode 4 about guys like O'Toole using the right rhetoric to rile up and scare people into doing the wrong thing....man, amazing stuff.

This is important television right here.

 

[KingKong]

I really enjoy the politics and council side but all the side stories are just so dull and uninspired. I know Simon wants to put a human face on the low-income people but he did a much better job on the Wire or even Treme

 

[gdt]

I really enjoy the politics and council side but all the side stories are just so dull and uninspired. I know Simon wants to put a human face on the low-income people but he did a much better job on the Wire or even Treme

Can't say I agree.

The only criticism I have is that the Dominican girl is in no way speaking with a Dominican accent (in either language). Takes me out of it a bit.

 

[KingKong]

Can't say I agree.

The only criticism I have is that the Dominica girl is in no way speaking with a Dominican accent (in either language). Takes me out of it a bit.

To me it feels like the same problem that Treme had, decent people just dealing with problems aren't very interesting when the show also has this dynamic conflict and characters

 

[Tugatrix]

I really enjoy the politics and council side but all the side stories are just so dull and uninspired. I know Simon wants to put a human face on the low-income people but he did a much better job on the Wire or even Treme

I don't disagree, but yet my major problem was the lack of tie in with the major story, but that changed in the last 2 episodes with them expressing desire to live on those new low income houses, etc.

 

[brianjones]

This is important television right here.

man i love the wire but everything simon does feels so damn self important

i wonder if his porn show will be any.. fun?

 

[Rastafarian42]

Really enjoying this mini-series a lot the scene where Deena called her parents to come get her was so heartbreaking.

 

[gdt]

man i love the wire but everything simon does feels so damn self important

i wonder if his porn show will be any.. fun?

I read that the basis for the show is just some crazy stories they heard haha. So that seems like it will be fun indeed.

The Capitol Hill show has me drooling however.

 

[Jonm1010]

Just finished episode 2 and 3 and I have to say it is depressing seeing this thread with less then 200 views and tripe like "Fear the Walking Dead" dominating the OT.

Such a great mini-series. Performances across the board are great. Simon showing he still remains near the top of the TV writing peak. I even have to give credit to Paul Haggis.

 

[Jonm1010]

man i love the wire but everything simon does feels so damn self important

i wonder if his porn show will be any.. fun?

Have you seen Generation Kill? Half that show was the marines cracking jokes and giving each other shit. One of the few series that managed to ride that fine line of merging comedy, drama and tragedy without letting one overshadow the other and muddy the overall message. Probably the best piece of visual media on the Iraq war and the most realistic representation of camaraderie of soldiers I have ever seen.

 

[Megalosaro]

Oscar Isaac is on fire. And he's all over the place. Can't type cast him at all.

 

[Tugatrix]

Have you seen Generation Kill? Half that show was the marines cracking jokes and giving each other shit. One of the few series that managed to ride that fine line of merging comedy, drama and tragedy without letting one overshadow the other and muddy the overall message. Probably the best piece of visual media on the Iraq war and the most realistic representation of camaraderie of soldiers I have ever seen.

This

I laugh, I felt sad, I made reflections about the Iraq War, not many shows can claim that

 

[kerotan_eater]

So I just finished the first episode. Trying to stay away from spoilers for the second. Can I get clarification on one thing?

Nick appealed something to do with the housing issue to the judge. What and why exactly was it important. What was did appeal?

 

[dave is ok]

So I just finished the first episode. Trying to stay away from spoilers for the second. Can I get clarification on one thing?

Nick appealed something to do with the housing issue to the judge. What and why exactly was it important. What was did appeal?

The judge ordered Yonkers to build public housing, a secondary part of the plan was to create additional low income housing after the public housing units were finished. He was trying to appeal that to buy some goodwill from constituents because they had exhausted all their appeals on the initial public housing, but people wouldn't accept they had lost and didn't support him.

Something like that.

 

[kerotan_eater]

The judge ordered Yonkers to build public housing, a secondary part of the plan was to create additional low income housing after the public housing units were finished. He was trying to appeal that to buy some goodwill from constituents because they had exhausted all their appeals on the initial public housing, but people wouldn't accept they had lost and didn't support him.

Something like that.

Ok thanks. Uhm I'm obviously bad at this but what exactly was Nicks issue with public housing and low income housing? Was it just the race relations/class issue? Is he just being conservative?

I think I really need to rewatch that episode :/

 

[dave is ok]

Ok thanks. Uhm I'm obviously bad at this but what exactly was Nicks issue with public housing and low income housing? Was it just the race relations/class issue? Is he just being conservative?

I think I really need to rewatch that episode :/

The matter was already settled by the time he became mayor. The judge was already pissed at Yonkers for years of inaction or punting and was starting to threaten contempt, fines, etc. Nick mainly just wanted to obey the law and was frustrated that everyone else was ready to bankrupt the city to fight the housing order.

 

[Alpende]

fuck. That scene with them getting into the car with the constant thumping was riveting. Really effective stuff. If anyone has doubts after the first act like lednerg said above then your concerns will definitely be silenced.

This entire show is just devastating.

I just watched that scene and the tension felt real. This show just feels real and the dialogue reflects that.

I would go insane if I'd try to hold a meeting and people were constantly shouting. I don't know the story but man, I'd really like to see Spallone be mayor and see how he does. All he does is promise shit, like everyone else, and he has no way of delivering.

It feels like Wasiscko can't do anything right, tough situation to be in.

 

[RastaMentality]

This miniseries is gonna make me watch the Wire for the first time this week. It was always on my list but I want to experience more of Simon's world building now.

 

[Misha]

I just watched that scene and the tension felt real. This show just feels real and the dialogue reflects that.

I would go insane if I'd try to hold a meeting and people were constantly shouting. I don't know the story but man, I'd really like to see Spallone be mayor and see how he does. All he does is promise shit, like everyone else, and he has no way of delivering.

It feels like Wasiscko can't do anything right, tough situation to be in.

I made the mistake of reading articles now so it sorta gives me an idea how they're going to close it out, but after it's over, it would definitely be worth reading up on the politics of Yonkers for years later. I found a few articles in the 2000s about the housing and recognized a few names in them


And agreed with how natural it feels. Gonna have to finish the wire and catch up on other Simon shows after this is done to get more of his style

 

[Tugatrix]

I just watched that scene and the tension felt real. This show just feels real and the dialogue reflects that.

I would go insane if I'd try to hold a meeting and people were constantly shouting. I don't know the story but man, I'd really like to see Spallone be mayor and see how he does. All he does is promise shit, like everyone else, and he has no way of delivering.

It feels like Wasiscko can't do anything right, tough situation to be in.

Basically any mayor is between a rock and a hard place, to win they can only promise the appeal, but when they seat on the chair they know they can't make any appeal and so they career as mayor will be short lived.

Wasiscko isn't dumb, he was rather naive, too eager to seize power

 

[Discotheque]

Man I'm loving Alfred Molina in this, he's playing such a shit heel and revelling in it. Giving me doc ock flashbacks

This is honestly the most I've enjoyed a David Simon work since season 4 of the wire

Even prefer it over S5, generation kill and certainly treme. its paced so well that the last 4 hours have breezed imo. Treme got so up it's own ass with the Jazz talk and "this ain't the reaaaal New Orleans Maaan" and none of the characters really interested me after a while tbh

This one feels like a more collaborative effort from Simon and others

 

[Fjordson]

Man I'm loving Alfred Molina in this, he's playing such a shit heel and revelling in it. Giving me doc ock flashbacks

This is honestly the most I've enjoyed a David Simon work since season 4 of the wire

Even prefer it over S5, generation kill and certainly treme. its paced so well that the last 4 hours have breezed imo. Treme got so up it's own ass with the Jazz talk and "this ain't the reaaaal New Orleans Maaan" and none of the characters really interested me after a while tbh

This one feels like a more collaborative effort from Simon and others

I still have episode 4 to go, but I agree. I respect Treme, but couldn't enjoy it as a television show. Got old fast.

I loved Generation Kill so it is tough for me to decide, though I think the acting might be even better in this. Hard to go wrong when you've got people like Molina, Isaac, Winona Ryder, Jon Bernthal, etc.

 

[ilikeme]

This show is great.

Actually relevant, interesting and the production is plain quality.

This is close to life-affirming stuff.

 

[RatskyWatsky]

I really enjoy the politics and council side but all the side stories are just so dull and uninspired. I know Simon wants to put a human face on the low-income people but he did a much better job on the Wire or even Treme

I don't think the side stories are dull, but they are sort of uninspired. Maybe that's sort of the point though?

I do think that if Simon wanted to have this many side characters that he should have written more material for them. I don't feel like enough time is being spent on any given character to make me care about any of them in any substantial way.

 

[lednerg]

I don't think the side stories are dull, but they are sort of uninspired. Maybe that's sort of the point though?

I do think that if Simon wanted to have this many side characters that he should have written more material for them. I don't feel like enough time is being spent on any given character to make me care about any of them in any substantial way.

I get the feeling that all of them are real people as opposed to being composite characters like in The Wire. You can only do so much with real people before it turns into fiction. I don't want to read up on the historical facts until after the third act has aired, so I might be totally wrong. And if I'm wrong, then at least these people feel real.

 

[Dan]

I'd like to see how the side stories play out in the final episodes before judging their overall contributions.

This show is generally fantastic, however. It makes me want Simon to go forward with only one of those two pilots he's doing, because I'd love to see him handle more miniseries. He's put work into developing so many, and he initially optioned this book some 15 years ago.

 

[Jonm1010]

I'd like to see how the side stories play out in the final episodes before judging their overall contributions.

This show is generally fantastic, however. It makes me want Simon to go forward with only one of those two pilots he's doing, because I'd love to see him handle more miniseries. He's put work into developing so many, and he initially optioned this book some 15 years ago.

Yeah, similar to how I feel about David Milch at this point, I honestly kinda prefer that Simon spend his time tackling miniseries over multi-year long shows that may or may not be given the full support they need to completely thrive. I want these generational talents to actually be able to finish their works of art and not get stonewalled partially through.

I want to see guys like Milch and Simon be able to tell complete stories and it seems that miniseries are the best way these days. Plus miniseries typically are able to attract better director talent which adds another layer of polish to the stories.

I would love to see Simon tackle his interest in the Haymarket riot in a single run season. Or revisit police brutality in the face of escalating racial tension.

 

[newjeruse]

One of the big themes of The Wire is the interconnected nature of Baltimore, for better or worse. The community together felt the effects of crime, corruption, and incompetence. We saw this with the decaying docks, crumbling schools, ravaged streets, etc.

In Show Me a Hero, the two parallel stories barely feel concurrent. And I'm not saying that as a criticism. The show does a great job of illustrating the stark divide between the two classes of people who inhabited Yonkers in the 80's. It makes drug-ridden Baltimore feel almost aspirational. Even Wasisko, as likeable as he is, feels pressure to enforce the SC ruling because of potential procedural violations. That's a fair motivation. But we never see him conflicted about the actual moral question of a segregated society.

 

[brianmcdoogle]

One of the big themes of The Wire is the interconnected nature of Baltimore, for better or worse. The community together felt the effects of crime, corruption, and incompetence. We saw this with the decaying docks, crumbling schools, ravaged streets, etc.

In Show Me a Hero, the two parallel stories barely feel concurrent. And I'm not saying that as a criticism. The show does a great job of illustrating the stark divide between the two classes of people who inhabited Yonkers in the 80's. It makes drug-ridden Baltimore feel almost aspirational. Even Wasisko, as likeable as he is, feels pressure to enforce the SC ruling because of potential procedural violations. That's a fair motivation. But we never see him conflicted about the actual moral question of a segregated society.

I don't know if we need to. We're a smart enough audience to see the two sides and put the pieces together ourselves. I assume we'll get more interconnectedness in the last two episodes, but either way, I can, personally, hold both classes, people, and rationales in my mind at the same time. And I think this is Simon's strength in trusting the audience.

I loved Treme and The Wire, but I think I love the miniseries idea from him moreso.

 

[maquiladora]

Show is amazing. It's classic David Simon in it's themes and characters, but with a much tighter focus than his usual shows. Great directing. Great acting. Brilliant use of music.

A real shame this thread has so few replies. More people should be watching this!

 

[lednerg]

Wasicsko has more of an arc than most David Simon characters I can think of. He started off cynical and ambivalent, just playing the game. He is changing, though. In The Wire terms, this is the birth of a McNulty we're witnessing. I said before that this may be like Season Six of The Wire, but really, this is more of a prequel.

 

[exmachina64]

Even Wasisko, as likeable as he is, feels pressure to enforce the SC ruling because of potential procedural violations. That's a fair motivation. But we never see him conflicted about the actual moral question of a segregated society.

Do not read if you are not familiar with events that occur after episode 4 or don't mind being spoiled.

Spoiler

If the real Nick Wasicsko agonized over or cared about the moral implications of segregation, he never let anyone know. Wasicsko's obituary in the New York Times quotes his executive aide as saying "He wasn't pro-desegregation, he was pro-compliance." [Source] Apologies if you're familiar with this.

While portraying an overwrought Wasicsko would make for better television, there's just not enough evidence to do so if they're going to hew closely to what we know. If he hadn't committed suicide, perhaps he would have come out strongly in favor of civil rights in later years. Today, he might have been running for president.

 

[Blackhead]

Spoiler

If the real Nick Wasicsko agonized over or cared about the moral implications of segregation, he never let anyone know....

I really don't think you should include most of that spoiler until after the final episode. Save the discussion, worthwhile a it may be, for later

 

[lednerg]

We need spoiler warnings for spoilers.

I'm just glad I didn't read any of that. But I'll come back to this on Sunday night

Spoiler

or Monday morning

.

 

[newjeruse]

Spoiler

If the real Nick Wasicsko agonized over or cared about the moral implications of segregation, he never let anyone know. Wasicsko's obituary in the New York Times quotes his executive aide as saying "He wasn't pro-desegregation, he was pro-compliance." [Source] Apologies if you're familiar with this.

While portraying an overwrought Wasicsko would make for better television, there's just not enough evidence to do so if they're going to hew closely to what we know. If he hadn't committed suicide, perhaps he would have come out strongly in favor of civil rights in later years. Today, he might have been running for president.

Again, I wasn't citing my point as a flaw of the show. I was citing it as a strength.