Support NeoGAF

[Archie]

http://www.dailydot.com/esports/reginald-marc-merrill-riot-games/

Comments made by Riot Games co-founder and president Marc Merrill show that the company behind League of Legends is apparently out of touch with its own esports scene.

Merrill posted a comment on Reddit that chastised Team SoloMid owner Andy “Reginald” Dinh for laying blame on Riot for the volatility of the esports scene the company has developed. Like much of Merrill’s meddling on social media (see: SpectateFaker) the message came off as tone deaf, petty, and out of touch, and showed that the way Riot is approaching its esports development may be based on flawed premises.

Merrill also implies that Team SoloMid makes its money from League of Legends and instead of investing it back into the game, uses it to fund teams in other esports at a losing proposition. But according to Dinh, the situation is the opposite: While he invested more in League, other orgs invested in Counter-Strike which makes more money for players through stickers in a single year than Riot Games paid in stipends and icon sales since the inception of the LCS. One of the founders of former LCS team Enemy eSports, Robert “Chachi” Stemmler, said that his team makes more money from skins sales in Smite every month than they did the entirety of the LCS split for icon sales, which amounted to a one-time $3,125 payment.

The crux of the issue is this: For League of Legends to further develop as an esport, it needs to generate revenue from its massive popularity. The promise of revenue growth attracts investment. It encourages teams to invest in infrastructure. It encourages teams to invest in talent. Yet Riot is directly impeding the growth of that revenue.

Merrill seems to think that teams are the ones who are driving revenue growth and that they must re-invest that money into the scene for it to continue growing. But the team owners have a different perspective: Not only do they make more money from investments in other esports, Riot Games is directly impeding growth of revenue in League of Legends.

Right now, investors are excited about the opportunity League of Legends represents. But unless Riot helps develop more ways for teams to generate revenue, they won’t be for long. The increased investment this year is a testament to the size of League esports, but it’s predicated on the potential for future returns, and those returns will only happen if Riot helps realize them. Those investors won’t stay in a highly competitive League market when there are now other alternatives in esports, like Counter-Strike or potentially Overwatch.

The best return on investment for an established brand like Team SoloMid right now is buying into other esports like Counter-Strike: Global Offensive and attracting an even bigger and more diverse fanbase. That's especially true when companies like Valve provide tools to monetize team success through the sale of in-game items. Riot is hindering them from further capitalizing on the massive fanbase they have in League, and until that changes, we’re only going to see more antagonism between parties like Dinh and Riot Games.

What does GAF think about this? The fact teams make more money on titles like CS:GO and Smite, both of which are orders of magnitude smaller than LoL, seems weird.

 

[The Jackdog]

Well, seems like Riot is doing it right really. Piss off your players, hoard the money yourself....just going by the NFL's playbook.

 

[Hyun Sai]

The Smite comment is baffling. How can they gain more money in it judging by the difference in player base and visibility ?

 

[jwhit28]

Well, seems like Riot is doing it right really. Piss off your players, hoard the money yourself....just going by the NFL's playbook.

The NFL is owned by the team owners as a group. The fact that the teams don't have any ownership in the league they participate in sort of throws off any American sports analogies.

 

[Disxo]

The Smite comment is baffling. How can they gain more money in it judging by the difference in player base and visibility ?

We like buying team skins ;D

 

[Xater]

I wonder if DOTA 2 also makes teams more money. They also do the signed items and shit right?

 

[Glitter and Gold]

The NFL is owned by the team owners as a group. The fact that the teams don't have any ownership in the league they participate in sort of throws off any American sports analogies.

Yeah this isn't even a case of pissing off players. It's preventing team owners from having any actual ownership.

 

[shintoki]

Riot did well with the player salaries.

But they are behind with enticing top talent and allowing teams to really flourish.

It's also unfair to compare them to Valve, They've always been way ahead in about every aspect.

I wonder if DOTA 2 also makes teams more money. They also do the signed items and shit right?

You tell me.

 

[Renekton]

I wonder if DOTA 2 also makes teams more money. They also do the signed items and shit right?

Doesn't Valve pocket most of TI crowdfund proceeds?

 

[DonShula]

The NFL is owned by the team owners as a group. The fact that the teams don't have any ownership in the league they participate in sort of throws off any American sports analogies.

Bingo. Teams are making money hand over fist in the NFL, while one private entity is reaping most of the rewards in this case. If the game is really making billions (I don't doubt whatever numbers are thrown out there) then sharing that profit seems like a good incentive to attract investment. Expecting investment while hoarding the benefits is a bit tone deaf.

 

[Takiyah]

It's new territory. As mentioned earlier, Riot approached using the model of pay teams (ie. pay players) to ensure lasting teams, audiences can then get behind leagues, turn the leagues into digestible formats (unlike any other e-sports I've experienced), etc. Unfortunately it seems they're falling a bit behind - but that's ok, lot's of time to fix it.

E-sports is new, and while there are many similarities to other sports, say NFL, there are differences. To me it seems like a good idea to see what these other leagues to right, since it seems fairly obviously they've looked to leagues like the NFL to see how to structure league or produce sports content.

 

[pizzasqueeze]

Does LoL really make billions of dollars?

 

[Xater]

You tell me.

Alright then. Seems like the top of DOTA2 players is doing even better than CS:GO players.

Does LoL really make billions of dollars?

In case you don't know, it's the biggest game on the planet.

 

[Glitter and Gold]

Doesn't Valve pocket most of TI crowdfund proceeds?

Maybe, but they take a comparitively small cut of ingame item sales. Valve has the tools and infrastructure for players to produce and sell their own digital items on their storefront, allowing teams to make money directly off their own brand through item sales.

 

[danmaku]

From what I understand, other games let teams gain profit from selling skins/items/stuff, while in LoL they only get their salaries from Riot. If this is correct, teams are doing the right thing. What's the point of investing more money if you get nothing in return?

 

[Infinite_Daremo]

Does LoL really make billions of dollars?

Yes. Theres plenty of Teemo skins to sell.

 

[Lunaniem]

Riot did well with the player salaries.

But they are behind with enticing top talent and allowing teams to really flourish.

It's also unfair to compare them to Valve, They've always been way ahead in about every aspect.

Riot has been a large company for years, it's absolutely fair to compare them when you've got many more working on League than Dota.

 

[Tworak]

Recent Tournaments

The International 2016   $20,770,640.00
LCK Summer 2016          $266,090.00

embarrassing really

 

[shintoki]

Riot has been a large company for years, it's absolutely fair to compare them when you've got many more working on League than Dota.

I was being tongue and cheek with that remark, since Valve is just so far ahead in terms of client, infrastructure, Esports, etc. Basically, everything on the digital side. The two things league has done better is offering a salary to teams and sponsoring more tournaments. That's it.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Does LoL really make billions of dollars?

$1.6b last year.

LoL viewership has declined a lot. EU is practically a skeletal league and NA is around 50-60% of last year's viewership.

Popularity is also down. Riot isn't even bothering to release any metrics for the second year now, what does that tell you? Everyone that I have played LoL with have already abandoned it, there must be more people quitting the game than joining.

 

[Takiyah]

Recent Tournaments

The International 2016   $20,770,640.00
LCK Summer 2016          $266,090.00

embarrassing really

My understanding is a lot of that money for the International is user based no? I'm not sure what is the embarrassing part. The LoL doesn't copy the same model? No sure here.

 

[thestopsign]

Yeah Riot has been a little ridiculous lately. They have not upped prize pools... ever. Maybe Riot should invest in higher prize pools so selling LCS slots isn't more lucrative than actually reaching Top 3 in any given season.

 

[Shadoken]

In case you don't know, it's the biggest game on the planet.

The last time I checked it made roughly a billion or so last year. So no I don't think it's the biggest game on the planet. Mobile games have bigger user base and console games like Cod,GTA5 still generate more revenue per year.

My understanding is a lot of that money for the International is user based no? I'm not sure what is the embarrassing part. The LoL doesn't copy the same model? No sure here.

How does that matter ? Doesn't LoLs money ultimately come from users as well.

 

[Stone Ocean]

$1.6b last year.

LoL viewership has declined a lot. EU is practically a skeletal league and NA is around 50-60% of last year's viewership.

Popularity is also down. Riot isn't even bothering to release any metrics for the second year now, what does that tell you? Everyone that I have played LoL with have already abandoned it, there must be more people quitting the game than joining.

Viewership declined because of changes to formats that make watching low tier games a chore. No one wants to see bottom teams duke it out for 2 hours in the middle of the week.

Also the popularity bit is not true. Ghostcrawler went on record to say playerbase is still increasing and new players are sticking with the game more.

 

[shintoki]

$1.6b last year.

LoL viewership has declined a lot. EU is practically a skeletal league and NA is around 50-60% of last year's viewership.

Popularity is also down. Riot isn't even bothering to release any metrics for the second year now, what does that tell you? Everyone that I have played LoL with have already abandoned it, there must be more people quitting the game than joining.

New Waifu game is out called Overwatch. I wish I was joking, but there has been a drastic shift with internet attention to that. And let's be honest, Blizzard pays out better. You want that free trip to Blizzcon!

 

[Takiyah]

I was being tongue and cheek with that remark, since Valve is just so far ahead in terms of client, infrastructure, Esports, etc. Basically, everything on the digital side. The two things league has done better is offering a salary to teams and sponsoring more tournaments. That's it.

Huh? I have a tough time seeing how Valve is ahead of Riot in ESports as it relates to production value for fans. Perhaps I'm not familiar with what Valve provides.

 

[cartographer]

I was being tongue and cheek with that remark, since Valve is just so far ahead in terms of client, infrastructure, Esports, etc. Basically, everything on the digital side. The two things league has done better is offering a salary to teams and sponsoring more tournaments. That's it.

Riot does a lot more on the production side when you consider the number of events they do. I don't think it's close on that angle.

Also AFAIK the big LoL casters are actually paid employees instead of contractors which I believe is fairly uncommon in eSports.

 

[Abilidebob]

The last time I checked it made roughly a billion or so last year. So no I don't think it's the biggest game on the planet. Mobile games have bigger user base and console games like Cod,GTA5 still generate more revenue per year.



How does that matter ? Doesn't LoLs money ultimately come from users as well.

It is the biggest game on the planet.
By far.

 

[Hero]

Yeah, it's kind of sad Riot isn't investing more into the e-spots infrastructure.

Combine that with what I think is the worst year of competitive play/champion balancing and I haven't watched any LCS this year. Kind of sad.

 

[Shadoken]

It is the biggest game on the planet.
By far.

You realize that chart is digital only right ?

Console games make majority of their money off retail.

It's actually kinda funny how console games aren't that far behind even counting digital only.

 

[NSESN]

Viewership declined because of changes to formats that make watching low tier games a chore. No one wants to see bottom teams duke it out for 2 hours in the middle of the week.

Also the popularity bit is not true. Ghostcrawler went on record to say playerbase is still increasing and new players are sticking with the game more.

And EU is BO2, that is really boring to watch.

 

[Tworak]

My understanding is a lot of that money for the International is user based no? I'm not sure what is the embarrassing part. The LoL doesn't copy the same model? No sure here.

valve and riot both make money from users as far as I know. valve just has a thing and showers the tournament scene with some of it. riot pockets all of it apparently. lol is even way bigger than dota2, probably makes a lot more money, yet dota2 gives an astronomical amount more back to the community. that's what I think is embarrassing.

You realize that chart is digital only right ?

Console games make majority of their money off retail. COD and GTA make billions on one day.


It's actually kinda funny how console games aren't that far behind even counting digital only. I don't think LoL would even make top 10 if you include retail revenues.

cod bigger than the biggest games in the world confirmed on neogaf 2016 by shadoken anime avatar

 

[Archie]

Viewership declined because of changes to formats that make watching low tier games a chore. No one wants to see bottom teams duke it out for 2 hours in the middle of the week.

Also the popularity bit is not true. Ghostcrawler went on record to say playerbase is still increasing and new players are sticking with the game more.

But the game's marketshare in Korea (the second largest region) went from 45% to 25% after Overwatch came out. :huh

 

[Glitter and Gold]

You realize that chart is digital only right ?

Console games make money off retail.


It's actually kinda funny how console games aren't that far behind even counting digital only. I don't think LoL would even make top 10 if you include retail revenues.

I'm not sure on what planet you think COD is making 1.3 billion a year at brick and mortar.

 

[thestopsign]

valve and riot both make money from users as far as I know. valve just has a thing and showers the tournament scene with some of it. riot pockets all of it apparently. lol is even way bigger than dota2, probably makes a lot more money, yet dota2 gives an astronomical amount more back to the community. that's what I think is embarrassing.

Well in the case of The International, it is the players giving back to the competitive scene directly. Riot doesn't allow this to anywhere near the same extent and also doesn't make up for this lack in prize pool sizes.

 

[Abilidebob]

You realize that chart is digital only right ?

Console games make money off retail.


It's actually kinda funny how console games aren't that far behind even counting digital only. I don't think LoL would even make top 10 if you include retail revenues.

Let's say that digital for consoles account for 30% of sales.
Even if you take consoles' biggest game of 2015(COD:MW) and multiply the digital revenue by four it doesn't come close to LoL.

Also remember that digital sales have substantially higher margins than retail, so that's being generous.

Also look at

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/...the-pc-is-the-worlds-biggest-gaming-platform/

PC digital only market was valued at 32 billion dollars.
Consoles digital+retail market was valued at $25.1 billion dollars.

 

[jambo]

You realize that chart is digital only right ?

Console games make majority of their money off retail. COD and GTA make billions on one day.


It's actually kinda funny how console games aren't that far behind even counting digital only. I don't think LoL would even make top 10 if you include retail revenues.

It took CoD BO3 72 hours to make half a billion.

GTAV did a billion in 72 hours though.

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Riot did well with the player salaries.

But they are behind with enticing top talent and allowing teams to really flourish.

It's also unfair to compare them to Valve, They've always been way ahead in about every aspect.



You tell me.

Man. E sports is a better paying job than the WNBA.

 

[Shadoken]

It took CoD BO3 72 hours to make half a billion.

GTAV did a billion in 72 hours though.

Gta V is still no1 in NPD charts even now. And there are two COD titles in that top 10 alone. Not to mention retail sales in other countries.

I don't think it's fair to call a game no1 just based on Digital revenue alone. Retail revenue is non existent for LoL whereas it is a huge factor for console games.

cod bigger than the biggest games in the world confirmed on neogaf 2016 by shadoken anime avatar

anime?huh?. I guess you just can't expect butt hurt fanboys these days to recognize a classic Arcade game like Final Fight.
And when did I say COD made more than GTAV ? Maybe you should try posting something with some actual info instead of sarcastic insults.

 

[Stone Ocean]

But the game's marketshare in Korea (the second largest region) went from 45% to 25% after Overwatch came out. :huh

On PC Bangs. And at this point I'd wager China is miles ahead of Europe and Korea and that shit is growing by the minute.

 

[Twookie]

The league subreddit is going ham on riot atm, understandably. I mean this isn't exactly the first time Marc has said some dumb shit, but I'm surprised the Riot PR department hasn't put a muzzle on him yet.

I still cannot really fathom that he chose Regi as his target, of all people. The montecristo video is also pretty good.

Yeah, it's kind of sad Riot isn't investing more into the e-spots infrastructure.

Combine that with what I think is the worst year of competitive play/champion balancing and I haven't watched any LCS this year. Kind of sad.

Yeah same here. Even though I don't play league anymore, I still used to watch LCS because I like esports in general. This season has been boring as fuck to me so I havent wanted to watch most of the games honestly

 

[Ambition]

lol dang, this is actually blowing up
Nice job Regi and Monte 👌👌👌

 

[blAAAm!!!]

Riot is a horrible company. They care more about pumping out skins then working on their shitty game engine.

 

[Stone Ocean]

The league subreddit is going ham on riot atm, understandably. I mean this isn't exactly the first time Marc has said some dumb shit, but I'm surprised the Riot PR department hasn't put a muzzle on him yet.

I still cannot really fathom that he chose Regi as his target, of all people. The montecristo video is also pretty good.

Tryndamere needs to just stop engaging with the community because he is pretty bad at it.

You don't see Ryze spweing bullshit, do you? Follow his example.

 

[Abilidebob]

Gta V is still no1 in NPD charts even now. And there are two COD titles in that top 10 alone. Not to mention retail sales in other countries.

I don't think it's fair to call a game no1 just based on Digital revenue alone. Retail revenue is non existent for LoL whereas it is a huge factor for console games.

Anime roofl. But hey can't expect butt hurt fanboys these days to recognize a classic Arcade game.

It's extremely fair to call the biggest game in the world as the biggest game in the world.
I honestly don't like League of Legends, but I'd need to be extremely delusional to think that it's not a massive juggernaut of players and revenue. It also helps that it doesn't spend 300 million dollars yearly to release new stuff.

 

[Evolution of Metal]

Viewership declined because of changes to formats that make watching low tier games a chore. No one wants to see bottom teams duke it out for 2 hours in the middle of the week.

Also the popularity bit is not true. Ghostcrawler went on record to say playerbase is still increasing and new players are sticking with the game more.

EU consists of 6-7 bottom teams, so most games aren't worth watching. NA has 4 interesting teams (TSM, IMT, CLG, C9), if those teams don't play each other, then it is not worth watching either. If only fielding competitive teams netted more revenue for that team... Maybe there wouldn't be so many shit teams in LCS. The current system rewards for getting into LCS and most teams have the goal to survive for the next season as opposed to be win or be interesting to watch.

Viewership is also down because the meta-game is boring to watch. There are 3-5 common role picks and perhaps rare 2 extra ones. When the lead designer, your favorite Ghostcrawler, suggested the slippery slope bullshit that increasing bans will lead to 30 bans per team, you know that he is equally out of touch with the game design as Mark is with LoL.

From the rare stats that are available to the public, popularity is down. LoL is no longer the most popular game in Korean bongs. Ghostcrawler is the disciple of the Lyte's cult of reinterpreting metrics, if they had successful data, they would boast it. Just like they do with Championship viewership to get the casual headline of hitting 30m viewers, which is also a misleading stat.

Oh yeah, Lyte's dynamic q is still destroying the popularity of the solo q. Even when he left, his changes are still damaging LoL. It is no fun playing against a premade team when you cannot even voice chat with your teammates.

Tryndamere needs to just stop engaging with the community because he has no clue what is he talking about

Fixed it for you.

 

[Makareu]

Gta V is still no1 in NPD charts even now. And there are two COD titles in that top 10 alone. Not to mention retail sales in other countries.

I don't think it's fair to call a game no1 just based on Digital revenue alone. Retail revenue is non existent for LoL whereas it is a huge factor for console games.

It was already said but even if retail is 70% of total revenu LoL would still top these charts.

And it is an annual chart, LoL is up there for 4-5 years now, with minimal developpement costs (i suppose seeing the state of their client) and almost no marketing campaigns to finance.

 

[Shadoken]

It was already said but even if retail is 70% of total revenu LoL would still top these charts.

And it is an annual chart, LoL is up there for 4-5 years now, with minimal developpement costs (i suppose seeing the state of their client) and almost no marketing campaigns to finance.

It's been growing so I don't think it's fair to assume they made $1bn+ every year before 2015. It was less than that in 2014
http://www.pcgamer.com/league-of-legends-has-made-almost-1-billion-in-microtransactions/
And only 600mn in 2013
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articl...of-legends-2013-revenue-topped-USD600m-report

 

[Stone Ocean]

EU consists of 6-7 bottom teams, so most games aren't worth watching. NA has 4 interesting teams (TSM, IMT, CLG, C9), if those teams don't play each other, then it is not worth watching either. If only fielding competitive teams netted more revenue for that team... Maybe there wouldn't be so many shit teams in LCS. The current system rewards for getting into LCS and most teams have the goal to survive for the next season as opposed to be win or be interesting to watch.

Viewership is also down because the meta-game is boring to watch. There are 3-5 common role picks and perhaps rare 2 extra ones. When the lead designer, your favorite Ghostcrawler, suggested the slippery slope bullshit that increasing bans will lead to 30 bans per team, you know that he is equally out of touch with the game design as Mark is with LoL.

From the rare stats that are available to the public, popularity is down. LoL is no longer the most popular game in Korean bongs. Ghostcrawler is the disciple of the Lyte's cult of reinterpreting metrics, if they had successful data, they would boast it. Just like they do with Championship viewership to get the casual headline of hitting 30m viewers, which is also a misleading stat.

Oh yeah, Lyte's dynamic q is still destroying the popularity of the solo q. Even when he left, his changes are still damaging LoL. It is no fun playing against a premade team when you cannot even voice chat with your teammates.

"Playerbase is up, ranked participation is up, churn is down". That is verbatim what GC said, I don't see how you can spin that?

Bans are increasing next season and Dynamic Q is getting changed to make high ELO better - the only people that actually gave a shit about Dynamic Q, no matter what reddit wants you to believe, Dynamic Q didn't destroy jack shit as much as I dislike it.

 

[Hero]

EU consists of 6-7 bottom teams, so most games aren't worth watching. NA has 4 interesting teams (TSM, IMT, CLG, C9), if those teams don't play each other, then it is not worth watching either. If only fielding competitive teams netted more revenue for that team... Maybe there wouldn't be so many shit teams in LCS. The current system rewards for getting into LCS and most teams have the goal to survive for the next season as opposed to be win or be interesting to watch.

Viewership is also down because the meta-game is boring to watch. There are 3-5 common role picks and perhaps rare 2 extra ones. When the lead designer, your favorite Ghostcrawler, suggested the slippery slope bullshit that increasing bans will lead to 30 bans per team, you know that he is equally out of touch with the game design as Mark is with LoL.

From the rare stats that are available to the public, popularity is down. LoL is no longer the most popular game in Korean bongs. Ghostcrawler is the disciple of the Lyte's cult of reinterpreting metrics, if they had successful data, they would boast it. Just like they do with Championship viewership to get the casual headline of hitting 30m viewers, which is also a misleading stat.

Oh yeah, Lyte's dynamic q is still destroying the popularity of the solo q. Even when he left, his changes are still damaging LoL. It is no fun playing against a premade team when you cannot even voice chat with your teammates.



Fixed it for you.

It's funny you mention this because when it was announced that Ghostcrawler was going to Riot I knew there would be issues. I used to be really into WoW and PVP and made several posts about the state of the Rogue class throughout the years. One on the official forums I made actually blew up and was capped by the next day and then someone else copied and pasta'd my post and that one maxed out of replies as well. Basically I called out all the horrible, frustrating shit with the Rogue class and basically got a vague blue response that said they were aware of the post. Years later after I had stopped playing the game I found out they implemented some of the changes I proposed (sprint being a 5 minute cooldown was laughable back in the day).