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Techland requests SteamSpy to remove their sales data; SteamSpy owner annoyed

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
valve could stop steamspy instantly by simply reallocating everyone's steam ids into a sparse, random, nonsequential hash space. doing so would make it impossible to randomly sample steam users--you'd end up having to do an opt-in snowball sample and you'd have very poor estimates

Do you have experience in this negotiations? I would love to see your resume.

well he is epic games' head of publishing for their european expansion
 

kswiston

Member
You would the see the jump in Steamspy, One day it's 50K and in the next 2 days it's 150K. That should give you a hint that something happened in that interval.

Also, what games have been in bundles or in massive give-aways is public knowledge. I don't know if people still bother given how frequent Humble Bundles are, but you used to be able to look up exact bundle sales from all of their past bundles on Wikipedia.

Plus, you have to look at the overall picture. If I was planning on selling my latest RPG Maker or Gamemaker Studio masterpiece on Steam, I probably wouldn't use To the Moon or Undertale as baselines for my sales expectations.
 

ROFISH

Neo Member
Personally, I don't like it just because for smaller devs it's basically publishing their bank account. :/ There's a difference between corporate transparency and personal privacy. I can easily imagine this ruining personal and family relationships similar to lottery winnings, etc.

Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

This is, of course, only on the smaller dev. I don't care about big corporations. :p

Data-wise though, I agree that SteamSpy is just scraping and re-publishing public data so the leak is directly with Valve to fix more or less. Just goes to show that even if you show a little bit of data, the true data sieves can divine anything. (Which makes Facebook, et. al all the more scarier...)
 

RibMan

Member
100% agreed with Nirolak.

This is what happens when you play the ring around the rosie pocket full of MAUsies game. When you create an environment where numbers -- you know, one of the best measures of anything -- are viewed as a negative and the validity and or source of numbers is never questioned, you are also creating an environment where publishers and developers will be able to consistently get away with releasing misleading information. Thankfully, there are still some folks who understand the value of analyzing and (intelligently) estimating the sales performance, userbase, and engagement numbers of a product.
 

NoPiece

Member
Doesn't matter. Respect the request

If Activision asked NPD to stop collecting and selling data on their sales, do you think they should? Or if Honda told Edmunds to stop collecting and sharing data on car sales? You are effectively saying polling and data collection should be subject to approval by the people about whom the data is collected.

Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

Do you think Glassdoor should accept requests from companies to remove salary information? I can see salary info on their site from places I've worked.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

It would be a substantially better world if information asymmetry in salary negotiations was solved by compulsory public disclosure of salary, so, uh? The question isn't whether people would disclose their salary--the question is given all salaries are disclosed, could people justify hiding their own?
 

Moonstone

Member
Personally, I don't like it just because for smaller devs it's basically publishing their bank account. :/ There's a difference between corporate transparency and personal privacy. I can easily imagine this ruining personal and family relationships similar to lottery winnings, etc.

Bank account isn't owners*price. That is misinterpreting. You don't know the average price and costs involved. If people read it wrong - than it is those people's fault.
People do this the whole time anyways.

"Neighbor has a new car - he must make xyz a month!".
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
Bank account isn't owners*price. That is misinterpreting. You don't know the average price and costs involved. If people read it wrong - than it is those people's fault.
People do this the whole time anyways.

"Neighbor has a new car - he must make xyz a month!".

at the same time, if your neighbour buys a countach while he argues he can't afford to pay his maid the legal minimum wage, maybe that's a contrast worth looking into~!
 

Costia

Member
100% agreed with Nirolak.

This is what happens when you play the ring around the rosie pocket full of MAUsies game. When you create an environment where numbers -- you know, one of the best measures of anything -- are viewed as a negative and the validity and or source of numbers is never questioned, you are also creating an environment where publishers and developers will be able to consistently get away with releasing misleading information. Thankfully, there are still some folks who understand the value of analyzing and (intelligently) estimating the sales performance, userbase, and engagement numbers of a product.
The problem with taking this stance is that you might end up with having no information at all. Which would also eliminate the option to gather this information for people who did use it, but didn't publish it on a website.
I would prefer if they reached some sort of an agreement rather than taking a rigid one sided "no more requests" stance out of the blue.
I mean, this can work as well, but it is somewhat risky.
 

ROFISH

Neo Member
Do you think Glassdoor should accept requests from companies to remove salary information? I can see salary info on their site from places I've worked.

Glassdoor can (and should) publish whatever they want to publish. But that said, it's individual employees anonymously reporting salaries on their own free will. Imagine an exact opposite if there was a website that published how much you made without any of your input at all.

It would be a substantially better world if information asymmetry in salary negotiations was solved by compulsory public disclosure of salary, so, uh? The question isn't whether people would disclose their salary--the question is given all salaries are disclosed, could people justify hiding their own?

And that's the exact problem, it's involuntarily divulging the "salary" of one individual in this imperfect asymmetrical world full of jealousy and bias.

Bank account isn't owners*price. That is misinterpreting. You don't know the average price and costs involved. If people read it wrong - than it is those people's fault.
People do this the whole time anyways.

"Neighbor has a new car - he must make xyz a month!".

Your quote is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. Someone could pull a "million dollar neighbor" and opt to drive a beater for forever. Valve's publishing of data (with SteamSpy's scraping), prevents the option of privacy to the small individual.
 

Metzhara

Member
At face value, with no horses in the race, it looks like the equivalent to Business Doxxing.
Pretty sure it feels shady. As a consumer, I don't feel entitled to this info though those who provide it do so with their own agenda normally (read: agendas aren't always bad.)
I can honestly see the harm in releasing the information, but releasing the info of those who requested it is definitely a dick move, regardless of the justifications made.
 

Durante

Member
Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?
My salary, like most people employed in a public university position in Austria, is a matter of public record.

I think the whole culture of secrecy concerning salaries is just a way for some people to enrich themselves to the detriment of others. Much like, seemingly, this secrecy concerning ownership estimates which a few publishers desire.
 

NoPiece

Member
Glassdoor can (and should) publish whatever they want to publish. But that said, it's individual employees anonymously reporting salaries on their own free will. Imagine an exact opposite if there was a website that published how much you made without any of your input at all.

I didn't share my data with Glassdoor, but you can infer my salary because they found a way to collect the data from other people. I didn't have any say in it, nor should I. You can see every salary of every public employee in California here: http://transparentcalifornia.com/
 

NoPiece

Member
At face value, with no horses in the race, it looks like the equivalent to Business Doxxing.
Pretty sure it feels shady. As a consumer, I don't feel entitled to this info though those who provide it do so with their own agenda normally (read: agendas aren't always bad.)
I can honestly see the harm in releasing the information, but releasing the info of those who requested it is definitely a dick move, regardless of the justifications made.

Do the Billboard top 100 or Box Office Mojo weekend tickets sales reports look like "doxxing" to you? Collecting and reporting sales info is nothing new, special, or deserving of privacy.
 

kswiston

Member
Anyone making millions off steam would have been outed regardless. No one was left wondering if Jonathan Blow was making money off of Braid back in the days of black box digital sales.
 
Let's do a quick review of everyone who requested their data be taken down.

Squad (Kerbal Space Program): Paid their staff nigh zero wages, frequently fired them, game had sold 1.5 million copies at a high ASP. Their request was done under the cover of asserting that Mexican drug cartels would murder all their staff if their data was on SteamSpy because a drug cartel that was sophisticated enough to use SteamSpy wouldn't be able to figure out Kerbal Space Program was a success otherwise.


Paradox: Had an IPO. Was very concerned that investors wouldn't be able to understand the three day sales lag on SteamSpy, and reported the numbers were very inaccurate anyway. Proceeded to announce sales numbers a few days later that were basically exactly the same as SteamSpy right before it shut off. Given every public company has an IR department that has to deal with continual investor questions, they're either completely not ready for the IPO they're doing and their stock will be totally fucked, or they're actually just trying to hide any future potential underperformances.

Nicalis: Probably one of the less successful indie publishers. Presumably don't want their data shown so that indie developers can't easily compare the success rates of their potential publishers and come to the conclusion they may prefer Devolver Digital or Adult Swim.

Techland: Getting into game publishing, and never cared before. Presumably they're concerned for the same same reason as Nicalis unless they're planning an imminent IPO.

Also, to be clear, these are publisher wishes, not developer wishes. We see basically no individual developers except Squad wanting their data pulled.

If all the major, gigantic publishers see zero issue with SteamSpy, and the individual developers don't, and this is only an issue for a very select number of small time publishers, I'm really having trouble imagining a scenario where SteamSpy is actually problematic for anyone.

Now this isn't a defense just to be clear, but Squad might be more than just an edge case. They're technically not even game developers. IIRC Squad is actually an events organizer or PR company, or something along those lines. They've done more work for companies like Coca-Cola than actually making games. It's only because an employee had an idea for a game and they randomly green lighted it.

You're right, they treat staff like shit and fire them regularly despite hardly even bothering to pay them, but I've always been curious just how much of that is even remotely controlled by the devs, or if they've ever seen much of that money at the upper end of the development. (harvester etc)

As someone who has followed the game since almost the start of early access, I've always been curious what's actually going on at the company as the money has rolled in heavily at times, especially when KSP used to regularly hit the front page of Reddit, yet development has remained slow as all hell, staff list stayed tiny even reaching the 1.0 release and the few who were there either got fired or peanuts. It's as if practically nothing went back into the game.
 

rackham

Banned
The games industry is too devious in their privacy. It's all about investors so they end up showing their projects too early wth vertical slices and shit that's not in the final game. Their privacy is essentially taking advantage of people.
 

Kieli

Member
Personally, I don't like it just because for smaller devs it's basically publishing their bank account. :/ There's a difference between corporate transparency and personal privacy. I can easily imagine this ruining personal and family relationships similar to lottery winnings, etc.

Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

This is, of course, only on the smaller dev. I don't care about big corporations. :p

Data-wise though, I agree that SteamSpy is just scraping and re-publishing public data so the leak is directly with Valve to fix more or less. Just goes to show that even if you show a little bit of data, the true data sieves can divine anything. (Which makes Facebook, et. al all the more scarier...)

This stigma against sharing your salary is precisely what allows companies to deflate everyone's salaries.

Like charlequin said, power and knowledge is asymmetrically distributed.
 

Buburibon

Member
Personally, I don't like it just because for smaller devs it's basically publishing their bank account. :/ There's a difference between corporate transparency and personal privacy. I can easily imagine this ruining personal and family relationships similar to lottery winnings, etc.

Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

This is, of course, only on the smaller dev. I don't care about big corporations. :p

Data-wise though, I agree that SteamSpy is just scraping and re-publishing public data so the leak is directly with Valve to fix more or less. Just goes to show that even if you show a little bit of data, the true data sieves can divine anything. (Which makes Facebook, et. al all the more scarier...)

I would absolutely post my earnings/net worth right here and now. Canada Revenue Agency is 100% aware of every cent of it, so I have nothing to hide. The cat's out of the bag anyway when your lifestyle is a pretty close reflection of your income. The damage to my personal relationships has already been done, if any. Now, I understand things might be a whole lot different in other societies, but like I said, I don't need to hide anything from anyone here in Canada at this time.
 

Moonstone

Member
Your quote is _exactly_ what I'm talking about. Someone could pull a "million dollar neighbor" and opt to drive a beater for forever. Valve's publishing of data (with SteamSpy's scraping), prevents the option of privacy to the small individual.

And if you run the most popular burger restaurant in town (which anybody can track just by waiting before the entrance and counting people) - your neighbor might send you a beater, although you are a bad businessman, rent is to high and you actually lose money - despite good burger sales.
If you want to avoid that: Never publish anything be it music, games or movies and don't run a succesfull business - because there is always some potential idiot out there.

While we don't get as accurate numbers as from steamspy there are enough sources and information about game sales. The only difference is that those sources are more vague, but with enough insight you can guestimate at least the region of sales. We have charts in several countries, sales awards, appannie, PR, market research pr, concurrent players on steam and so on. You could also track social media, gaming forum buzz, number of user reviews.

Turning your argument around: Some idiot might think that you made a lot of money with your game, but steamspy might tell another truth.
Anyway I think this whole reasoning is wrong.
 

Grief.exe

Member
Personally, the only thing I think Sergey should hide is the first 72 hours of data.

Too many people who don't understand statistics or mathematics trying to make predictions off of completely erroneous numbers.

Steamspy is a phenomenal tool for enthusiasts to peek into the business of the game industry. It's also completely changed the prevailing dynamic of this forum, where PC gaming was a joke.
 

Costia

Member
I would have suggested delaying all displayed data by a week or 2.
So it will be less likely to impact any ongoing business decisions while still being useful for statistics.
Or maybe do the delay only if the company asked for it for a limited period of time.
 

Moonstone

Member
Personally, the only thing I think Sergey should hide is the first 72 hours of data.

Too many people who don't understand statistics or mathematics trying to make predictions off of completely erroneous numbers.

Steamspy is a phenomenal tool for enthusiasts to peek into the business of the game industry. It's also completely changed the prevailing dynamic of this forum, where PC gaming was a joke.

This would be good - maybe even a little more. It would also give the pr departments time to post out their press release.
 

Ascheroth

Member
That's interesting, and mirrors something I noticed on some games I was watching closely -- when they are included in bundles their owners stat often doesn't go up nearly as much as the bundle sales would indicate.

When I first discovered bundles I added everything to my account immediately, but after a while it just became a hassle and my library was already full with stuff I'm never going to play, so now I only activate a code when I know I'm going to play the game soonish.
Personally, the only thing I think Sergey should hide is the first 72 hours of data.

Too many people who don't understand statistics or mathematics trying to make predictions off of completely erroneous numbers.

Steamspy is a phenomenal tool for enthusiasts to peek into the business of the game industry. It's also completely changed the prevailing dynamic of this forum, where PC gaming was a joke.

Yep, I thought about that as well. The first couple of days are useless, but most people don't seem to understand that.
 
Personally, the only thing I think Sergey should hide is the first 72 hours of data.

Too many people who don't understand statistics or mathematics trying to make predictions off of completely erroneous numbers.

Steamspy is a phenomenal tool for enthusiasts to peek into the business of the game industry. It's also completely changed the prevailing dynamic of this forum, where PC gaming was a joke.

I'd say a week is better. I've noticed that it's still not tallying everything within 3 days.
 

Teeth

Member
I would just like to add that as a first time indie developer, the SteamSpy numbers have been an incredibly valuable resource. Being able to get realistic numbers for games that are unsuccessful, moderately successful, and breakout megahits gives proper perspective to budgeting, reception, and audience reactivity to sales, negative/positive press, and patches/DLC.
 

zulux21

Member
Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

sure. I make $11.65 an hour.
sorry i should steamspy that.
I make ~$11.60-$11.70 an hour :p

much like the data that steamspy uses my wage is public information if you go to my work.

I've got no problems with people knowing, and in fact it would be much better for employees in general if people talked about their salaries (which at least in america everyone is legally able to do as any work order to not talk about it is against the law)

but that is a totally different conversation :p

anyways, I am happy they are posting all the numbers again. As others have said there really isn't a great reason to have all the numbers hidden when so many other forms of entertainment have such clear numbers.

I know if I ever finish a game and manage to get it on steam I wouldn't mind at all if people could see it only sold 47 copies :p

it's a number, a number that you can make an educated guess to in general. The only thing having it easy to find like this does is causes companies to be unable to lie about how many copies of their game they have sold. beyond that it isn't hard to figure out what games have sold well or sold poorly *shrugs*


If someone is really annoyed with it, it should be on valve to stop it as there isn't a good reason to censor public information.
 

Csr

Member
It seems to me that the information that steamspy has made available is very important to have for developers and publishers to make decisions about budget, pricing, marketing, porting, etc so i don't think the negatives that have been mentioned outweigh the so many positives.
 
It would be a substantially better world if information asymmetry in salary negotiations was solved by compulsory public disclosure of salary, so, uh? The question isn't whether people would disclose their salary--the question is given all salaries are disclosed, could people justify hiding their own?

You totally stole the words from my mouth. I went 'uh?' when I read that, as I hate how the social convention is to not comment on your salary, it clearly it's an advantage point for the companies, not for the people. But they don't seem to notice. ¬¬
 

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

You do realize that salary is different from revenue, which is itself different from sales, which is ITSELF not always the same as sales-on-Steam, right?
 
It seems to me that the information that steamspy has made available is very important to have for developers and publishers to make decisions about budget, pricing, marketing, porting, etc so i don't think the negatives that have been mentioned outweigh the so many positives.

Indeed.
 

Grief.exe

Member
You do realize that salary is different from revenue, which is itself different from sales, which is ITSELF not always the same as sales-on-Steam, right?

This is why business/revenue/mathematics discussions are difficult on GAF. There are a lot of hurdles to participate, and the internet is not like the Olympics, people skip the hurdles.
 

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Personally, the only thing I think Sergey should hide is the first 72 hours of data.

Too many people who don't understand statistics or mathematics trying to make predictions off of completely erroneous numbers.

Steamspy is a phenomenal tool for enthusiasts to peek into the business of the game industry. It's also completely changed the prevailing dynamic of this forum, where PC gaming was a joke.

I'd have zero problems with hiding the first 72 hours, especially for publishers who want their launch day sales to look mostly accurate. At least that has a purpose relative to the platform.
 

samn

Member
Personally, I don't like it just because for smaller devs it's basically publishing their bank account. :/ There's a difference between corporate transparency and personal privacy. I can easily imagine this ruining personal and family relationships similar to lottery winnings, etc.

Those of you that are pro-numbers: Are you willing to post your salary right here right now?

This is, of course, only on the smaller dev. I don't care about big corporations. :p

Data-wise though, I agree that SteamSpy is just scraping and re-publishing public data so the leak is directly with Valve to fix more or less. Just goes to show that even if you show a little bit of data, the true data sieves can divine anything. (Which makes Facebook, et. al all the more scarier...)

all salaries should be public as they are in Finland

and in the UK, companies financial information must be registered with Companies House
 

Micael

Member
Personally, the only thing I think Sergey should hide is the first 72 hours of data.

Too many people who don't understand statistics or mathematics trying to make predictions off of completely erroneous numbers.

Would prefer a warning, also honestly not really seeing all that many decisions of any real consequence that could be taken in such short time frame, the only possibly damaging thing that I can see is some media website reporting on weak sales based on it, which is a possibility I guess, but something that can easily be disproven by the devs if/when it happens, either way would prefer a warning, think it would be far less confusing.
 

Maniac

Banned
Jup, this is going to happen sooner than later imo. And publishers have the right to make their game data invisible.

Off topic, but I find Steamspy's data to be a little bit deceitful anyway, because people always make revenue conclusions on the provided sales data.

... They don't have that right when it's publicly available information, no.
 

Dusk Golem

A 21st Century Rockefeller
Dead by Daylight released official numbers for the 1 million sales milestone, Steamspy is dead on.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/279929/Dead_By_Daylight_sales_top_1_million_after_two_months.php

I can mention they're usually more accurate than not. Know other developers have mentioned the numbers reflect closely enough to their actual numbers, and for a comparison I have a small free game, Close Your Eyes on Steam: http://store.steampowered.com/app/377330/

Steamspy estimates it's in 104,240 - 121,358 user accounts. The actual number right now as we speak it's been added by 115,830 users so far (game has almost been out for a year now, released on August 31st, 2015), There's more interesting data that Steam collects, but I think it's up to developers if they want to share it or not. Another statistic with that is out of those people, 52,450 of them at this point in time have launched the game at least once.

The numbers Steamspy generates aren't completely accurate and in some cases a bit off, but they're definitely not made up numbers and are usually pretty close to the real thing, and their algorithm for estimating the amount if pretty close.
 
That's NOT going to end well. I think it's silly for devs and publishers to ask Steamspy to hide their data, but they're in their rights to do so.

A few people have made similar claims, so apologies for the fact that I'm gonna pick on you specifically here. In actuality, no, they are very much not within their rights to do so (except inasmuch as you're allowed to ask people for pretty much anything whether or not they have any reason to give it to you.) They have no legal right to control of publicly available information about their own product, nor legal principle that would even remotely hint at providing such a right. (This is the same as people who want it to be illegal to have review sites like Yelp, basically -- understandable from a limited individual perspective, but obviously not happening on a systemic level.)

They also have no underlying moral right to claim here -- creating a thing does not give you any innate ability to control how people talk about it, or prevent others from measuring it, or to avoid inconvenient truths that might somehow affect your business selling that thing. The abstract "harms" being described here are entirely premised on it being virtuous to maintain a false sense of reality because people's reasonable reactions to true facts would be suboptimal for you, which one will have to work pretty hard to support under most systems of ethics.

In actuality, to feel like they have some innate right to remove this data (as opposed to just asking for it and seeing if someone obliges) requires a level of petty entitlement or narcissism that far exceeds any reasonable, factual basis. It's the same instinct that drives companies to take down fanpages (even though they're forms of free advertising), or has the IOC sending DMCA notifications for ten second Olympic GIFs on Twitter, or leads to the kind of PR disasters and self-destructive lawsuits that companies only realize far too late have wrecked their customer base. It's certainly familiar, and something that will continue to happen until the end of time, but it's not something that should be respected and encouraged.

And of course, it's true the other way around: people don't have an innate moral right to this information either. But Valve have chosen to provide an API that allows it to exist (and which publishers agree to allow when they sign up to publish) and someone's done the work to bring it together, and the result is a net positive for both consumers and devs/pubs, so.
 
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