I don't know... 4K doesn't look like it's that big of a deal. I'd rather just have 1080p with all the bells and whistles and smooth gameplay if I was on a lower end machine and/or PS4Pro
Yep.
I don't know... 4K doesn't look like it's that big of a deal. I'd rather just have 1080p with all the bells and whistles and smooth gameplay if I was on a lower end machine and/or PS4Pro
Kind of disingenuous, don't you think, considering that the "4K" here in the Pro isn't really true 4K? I wouldn't be surprised if a computer using a GTX 1060 (at $299) can achieve similar "PS4 Pro 4K" results running at solid 30 FPS.
Eurogamer said:Up until now, we've seen it as a software post-process upscale, but in actual fact, it's one of a number of new custom features backed into the PS4 Pro's GPU and as such comes with zero cost to game developers. We also understand that while it is a hardware feature, game-makers do seem to have a certain level of control
Yep.
I doubt it as the Polaris GPU cores in the PS4 Pro are customized with some kind of hardware checkerboard upscaler:
There is no dGPU you can buy on the market quite like it so don't expect to be able to enjoy the same type of visual output with a 1060. Of course you can try native 4K with that card but at low settings/framerates.
Everything you typed here is assuming and supposing too much, way too much.
All we have seen from these upscaled images is them just looking like upscaled images.
Whoa that's fugly.Off topic but Mankind Divided screenshot was released and it's not pretty:
Similar from PC for comparison:
I don't think you fully appreciate just how cheap upscaling (even smart upscaling) is compared to the rest of the rendering pipeline.
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Good news! You already can in Quantum Break and Rainbow Six: Siege.Ok well I'm waiting to enjoy faux-4K on a RX 470 then.
For those who are reasonable in threads like this, I'd say that there are 2 issues being discussed:
1) Is the marketing accurate? In this case, the marketing is pushing 4K gaming but are these native renders or some kind of upscale? From what we've seen in this thread, it seems that Tomb Raider uses some kind of upscaling technique. This revelation allows many to temper their expectations when it comes to AAA games. You might think that this should have been obvious but there are many who might believe the hype and marketing that a 4.2 TF console could render modern-looking games at 4K with playable frame rates.
2) Is the PS4Pro good value compared to alternatives, such as a gaming PC? This is much more subjective since people value different things. Some prefer the more hassle-free experience of consoles while not minding the load times and blurry image quality while others need 60 fps, pristine images, and mods and could only stand playing on PC. This leads to a lot of apparent "goal post shifting" as people point out the things that they value.
As for my own opinion on this, I already have a desktop to build off of so I only really use the GPU price for value comparisons, especially since CPU requirements for games haven't increased anywhere near as quickly as for GPUs. For $399, you can get a GTX 1070. Pop that into an existing desktop and you'll have something far superior to the PS4Pro:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...4125875&cm_re=gtx_1070-_-14-125-875-_-Product
If you don't already have a desktop to build from, I quickly put together a reasonable system that would probably be equivalent or slightly better than the PS4Pro for games at comparable settings. It costs ~$660 for the entire computer, including a decent case as well as a keyboard and mouse, so, for $250 more, you get a full computer that, in the future, you can build off of. It can also do "4K" at 30 fps. It's more expensive but it also does a lot more. For me, this is better value than a PS4Pro and most consoles:
http://pcpartpicker.com/list/bR4qRG
Looks notably worse on the PS4 pro, which is unusual as I often struggle to see real differences in these comparisons.
And keep in mind you'd need to compare these on a 4k display, running and not screenshots/video, in which case the differences will be even more pronounced.
This comparison is not doing the PS4pro any favours.
Looks notably worse on the PS4 pro, which is unusual as I often struggle to see real differences in these comparisons.
And keep in mind you'd need to compare these on a 4k display, running and not screenshots/video, in which case the differences will be even more pronounced.
This comparison is not doing the PS4pro any favours.
Eurogamer said:Traditional gaming media simply can't capture and communicate the quality of the imagery I saw today, as there's no real way to showcase HDR meaningfully. And this is actually a key component of the PlayStation 4 Pro experience. 4K is impressive and a worthy upgrade in its own right, but HDR takes it to the next level.
maybe the OP should add a native 1080p frame and compare that too
This is your main presumption that falls incredibly short as I think you are missing as to what checkboarding is.I'm not assuming, Eurogamer are saying it is a hardware upscaler baked into the GPU. Unless there is a dGPU releasing in the next 6 months with the same customizations (there isn't) you won't be able to enjoy the same type of faux-4K.
I don't really understand why they are trying to hit 4K anyway.
I doubt may PCs are managing to render that high with a stable frame rate.
Wouldn't it be best to just go stable 1080/60 with all the bells and whistles in every game?
I don't really understand why they are trying to hit 4K anyway.
I doubt may PCs are managing to render that high with a stable frame rate.
Wouldn't it be best to just go stable 1080/60 with all the bells and whistles in every game?
Mhh yes, 4k may be awesome.
But I need a really huge TV and sit close to it.
Am I wrong?
Shows how easily incorrect information spreads.Whoever made these charts should be proud of how often they come up on video games forums.
This is your main presumption that falls incredibly short as I think you are missing as to what checkboarding is.
It is a way of spatial upscaling in a single frame that apparently has dedicated hardware to it in the PS4pro GPU (GPUs already have hardware bilinear filtering for example, this is probably similar enough.. just with a different end product ala bi-cupic or Lanczos producing different end products). How and what information is fed into that hardware unit (which is only working on 1 frame from all we know at this moment) at the end for it to upscale is probably different from game to game. That is where the actual interesting part occurs.
Some game could feed it pixels from per-frame alternated patterns, another game could feed it pixels composed of coverage samples from MSAA (think R6: Siege), another game could feed it...
Do you get my point? It is far more likely that dedicated scaling hardware in the PS4pro is not responsible for good examples of fauxK or whatever we are calling it. Rather one final step in a longer pipeline of engine decisions which produces an image.
I wouldn't be surprised if a computer using a GTX 1060 (at $299) can achieve similar "PS4 Pro 4K" results running at solid 30 FPS.
But there is nothing stopping PC implementation of plenty of similar techniques.My point if you read it was a PC with a GTX 1060 won't be able to achieve the same kind of 4K as it doesn't have the same hardware (or software) customizations
That "same kind of 4K" you mention is not even going to be internally consistent on the PS4pro. The appearance (due to post-processing, the base resolution, the info is fed to the upscaler leading to its final output) will all be different from game to game.My point if you read it was a PC with a GTX 1060 won't be able to achieve the same kind of 4K
These hardware customisations, which from all we know only encapsulate a single-frame spatial upscaler using a different method than bilinear, are not going to be the deciding factor.as it doesn't have the same hardware (or software) customizations, whether the hardware upscaler is responsible or not no-one knows. I'm not Mark Cerny, I don't know what wizardry has gone into the customizations of the APU inside the PS4 Pro that allows it to output these visuals.
"Punching above its weight", along with "brute force", "secret sauce", etc. are all silly ways to point out things in hardware and software. They lack the nuance to capture what is happening and lead to flaming, fanboy conceptualisations of phenomena.It appears to be punching above its weight, would you agree?
This sentiment is kind of irrelevant and you should not let it get under your skin. Yes... there is nothing preventing you from buying a 4K screen, a RX470 and running multiplatform games at sub-native res and allowing the GPU driver to upscale the image. Yeah that is what I consider a "cheap PC". But who cares what I consider or what sentiments and resintements there are? If you want a PS4pro and you think it gives you value for your money and priorities, then that is great.I imagine the resolution and upscaling comparisons upon release in DF will confirm that it looks similar to worse than RX480 class hardware given parity conditions in settings.
The sentiment with some appears to be this can easily be achieved on a cheap PC.
Correction here. You mean price/performance, I assume? Not performance?If that were the case, it's not punching above its weight in terms of performance. So what is it?
If you are into the games that will get benefits from PS4pro and are willing to spend the money, then yes that is pretty sweet. The actual cost of a PC giving you a very similar appearance (maybe with the end difference being something like bilinear filtered upscaling vs. checkerboard).. is something I cannot begin to guess at.The larger point is that this appears to be pretty damn sweet for a $400 machine, and you wouldn't be able to achieve the same with a $400 PC. I think that is pretty inarguable.
I think I'll have to write this one down."Punching above its weight", along with "brute force", along with "secret sauce" are all silly ways to point out things in hardware and software. They lack the nuance to capture what is happening and lead to flaming, fanboy conceptualisations of phenomena.
Mhh yes, 4k may be awesome.
But I need a really huge TV and sit close to it.
Am I wrong?
On the TR interview after the event, the dev said there's a native 4k mode, even if it's just upscaled or checkerboarded, I think the results are not far apart considering the hardware you need to get the game running in 4K on PC. I mean, is it that far apart to you?Kind of disingenuous, don't you think, considering that the "4K" here in the Pro isn't really true 4K? I wouldn't be surprised if a computer using a GTX 1060 (at $299) can achieve similar "PS4 Pro 4K" results running at solid 30 FPS.
On the TR interview after the event, the dev said there's a native 4k mode, even if it's just upscaled or checkerboarded, I think the results are not far apart considering the hardware you need to get the game running in 4K on PC. I mean, is it that far apart to you?
I'm pretty sure the 1060 would be able to do the same, but the 1060 is not a console and it was not designed to pull this off like the .Pro can. The only thing the 1060 can do is to render at 4k and lower settings to achieve 30fps. Perhaps if games start implementing solutions like checkerboarding on PC we can probably do some comparisons.
On the TR interview after the event, the dev said there's a native 4k mode, even if it's just upscaled or checkerboarded, I think the results are not far apart considering the hardware you need to get the game running in 4K on PC. I mean, is it that far apart to you?
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"Punching above its weight", along with "brute force", "secret sauce", etc. are all silly ways to point out things in hardware and software. They lack the nuance to capture what is happening and lead to flaming, fanboy conceptualisations of phenomena.
So no. What we have seen sits well within visibile differences one would expect given the spec differential from the PS4. It looks like a 4.2TF GPU rendering images at sub-native 4K. This falls inline with what I expected actually if I were to share with you some PMs I have had with other GAF members.
This sentiment is kind of irrelevant and you should not let it get under your skin. Yes... there is nothing preventing you from buying a 4K screen, a RX470 and running multiplatform games at sub-native res and allowing the GPU driver to upscale the image. Yeah that is what I consider a "cheap PC". But who cares what I consider or what sentiments and resintements there are? If you want a PS4pro and you think it gives you value for your money and priorities, then that is great.
Correction here. You mean price/performance, I assume? Not performance?.
These hardware customisations, which from all we know only encapsulate a single-frame spatial upscaler using a different method than bilinear, are not going to be the deciding factor.
I don't really understand why they are trying to hit 4K anyway.
Mhh yes, 4k may be awesome.
But I need a really huge TV and sit close to it.
Am I wrong?
Good thing that a little variable like eye sight isn't even accounted for.Älg;216378135 said:Can't believe that these stupid graphs are still circulating.
and again - 1080p, 1440p, 4k, PS4pro
I feel like in both shots it looks closest to the 1440p upscale.
I feel like in both shots it looks closest to the 1440p upscale.
I think soNice job. It seems a good bit better than the 1440p though, still. The aliasing on more distant geometry is a good deal better in the Pro shots (e.g. on the spears in the skeleton piles etc).
I would expect it to fall between the two, 1440p and 4K, given the likely techniques and base resolutions involved. A good boost over the 1080p clarity/IQ.
Jonathan Blow said:I think it depends on the particular game and engine. Different rendering pipelines are structured differently; for some pipelines, the cost of adding checkerboard rendering would be very low, because they are already computing a lot of the information that checkerboard rendering needs. For other pipelines the cost might be higher. In our case we're just not sure of the total cost yet, but we think it is probably high enough that we may prefer to do a straight upscale. But we're not completely sure.
(It is true that, as Sony has announced, the PS4 Pro provides hardware support for checkerboard rendering that makes it faster than it would otherwise be. I think in some places I have seen the rumor that checkerboard is completely free, but I would consider that an exaggeration: the cost is going to vary per game. Unfortunately due to NDAs I can't provide details; I can't say anything more about Sony technologies than what they have announced. It is definitely true that if you had a game running on the original PS4, and the developer wants to do the most straightforward thing to make the game look better on the Pro, that developer could enable checkerboard rendering and the game will look better and run faster; so it's "free" in that sense. But if you are going to get picky about how you are spending the GPU memory and bandwidth of the new machine, then there are tradeoffs here, like with anything.)
So PS4 Pro is not a native 4k machine?
I love the break down of every bit of the ps4 pro image and the standard pc dismissal of just get this card that cost just as much as a ps4pro and get the same thing. Yet I have never been able to achieve the simple just pop in a new card and everything works perfect.
I also wonder if pc is always so plug and play why is there a pc performance thread for any pc release. We go from how great pc is up until a games is released only to find out all the issues of pc gaming. Which of course are all blamed on it being a console port.
Here is the thing every person that purchases a ps4 profile get a great looking game along with high to ultra pc settings. While most people that run out and buy that 1070 will be hit with the hard reality of your only going to get slightly better performance then the 970 you bought a year and a half go and actually playing a modern game at 4k is not realistic.
Nope. Yet they still market it as such. No idea why there isn't more outcry.
This is like putting a Ferrari body on a Toyota and selling it as a Ferrari.
So PS4 Pro is not a native 4k machine?
Nope. Yet they still market it as such. No idea why there isn't more outcry.
This is like putting a Ferrari body on a Toyota and selling it as a Ferrari.
It more like putting a Ferrari body on a Nissan GTR.