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[IrishNinja]

There's nothing inherently wrong with fighting for social justice, however that slur is used to describe people who turn any issue into one of social justice.
Sort of like crying wolf, when there's no need to.

because no one's better than hives of antisocial hetero white dudes to tell everyone what issues warrant social justice & what don't

Social Justice Warriors are: People with paper thin skin who always find something to be offended about. They generally have no concept of humour. Words they commonly use include: intolerant offensive triggering sexist racist even if most of the time it doesn't make sense...

yeah, words like sexist & racist clearly have no meaning when nearly half the country supports an open bigot running for president, excellent observation on the times we're living in man

i'm more than ok with how I see things.

no doubt, that's how privilege works

 

[Angel_DvA]

Yeah, humour. Its funny cause its true!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_m5AlsQqcs

So SJW, am I right?

That was funny to watch, I'm not saying I'm a misogynist or a feminist, I agree that some things have to change and women needs to fight for their equality but it's common sense, I always treated women as equal to men, it doesn't mean I agree with all the bullshit they're saying.

yeah, words like sexist & racist clearly have no meaning when nearly half the country supports an open bigot running for president, excellent observation on the times we're living in man

I'm not American so I'm not concerned by your choice but the USA clearly has a racism problem for sure.

 

[thegoosen]

What is even the reason to give your opinion about SJWs, when this discussion is about misogynists in geek culture? That everyone is an extreme type of sjw feminist, who points out that misogyny in this culture is undeniable?

 

[Breads]

So an SJW is someone actively fighting against the status quo? Or are they someone going out of their way to pretend to be offended. If the offense is legitimate how is this a problem. If the offense isn't legitimate who determines whether or not outrage is just.

Where does white guilt factor into this. This is something I've been hearing a lot lately. And apparently humor, or the lack thereof, has something to do with it too? Man, this is tough. I can't figure it out.

Where is the line actually drawn?

I want answers.

 

[IrishNinja]

So an SJW is someone actively fighting against the status quo? Or are they someone going out of their way to pretend to be offended. If the offense is legitimate how is this a problem. If the offense isn't legitimate who determines whether or not outrage is just.

through a great deal of projection, they're supposed to be some tumblr stereotype, arguing in bad faith - because that's literally the kneejerk dismissive reaction privileged white males have to any "oppression" of their status quo. alt right lingo and south park memes usually follow, where one would expect actual logic & discussion, but when starting from such a faulty premise, it's only natural i guess

 

[darkace]

I was campaigning for the right-leaning party in my local uni elections (there were hot girls ok), and while I could talk to the left-leaning party, the far-left party screamed at me, called me a misogynist/bigot/gay-hater/xenophobe (I'm none of those things, I was trying to sign their petition for gay marriage ffs), that I was oppressing them by being at their table, that men were the problem. Hell they even caught me on video in their 'safe space'.

Now clearly they're an insane minority (and probably helped us in the election, we had multiple people voting for us to keep them out), but they're who I would think when I think of 'SJW's'. I agree with some of the positions that feminists and the LGBT community fights for, but it's hard to identify with them when you share a platform with people like that.

 

[V_Arnold]

That was funny to watch, I'm not saying I'm a misogynist or a feminist, I agree that some things have to change and women needs to fight for their equality but it's common sense, I always treated women as equal to men, it doesn't mean I agree with all the bullshit they're saying.

That right there is a very revealing, yet loaded sentence.
So, first off. Its NOT common sense. For every "I treat women as equals", you get people (often their dads, their relatives or their close friends) reinforcing things like "so when is the baby coming? Still on that carrierist stuff, huh?", and that is the least of it.

Second, what bullshit are feminists saying? Seriously. I am curious.

 

[Mr. Sam]

"I'm fine with feminism and equality and all that but if they challenge my pre-conceived notions of what's acceptable they have obviously gone too far and merely have thin skin."

 

[Angel_DvA]

So an SJW is someone actively fighting against the status quo? Or are they someone going out of their way to pretend to be offended. If the offense is legitimate how is this a problem. If the offense isn't legitimate who determines whether or not outrage is just.

Where does white guilt factor into this. This is something I've been hearing a lot lately. And apparently humor, or the lack thereof, has something to do with it too? Man, this is tough. I can't figure it out.

Where is the line actually drawn?

I want answers.

You're overthinking things dude, relax, if someone is rude or hurts someone with stupid bigotry, they need to be called out and the outrage is legitimate but most of the times, people are just too sensitive now, I admit that my point of view change with Gaf on different subjects because this place is more diverse than others and it really help me to see things differently but most of the time, people here are offended for almost anything, there is an outrage culture that is blowing my mind...

Why do you feel guilty for being White ? did you do something that hurts other people ? You don't have to blame yourself for things other people do.

That right there is a very revealing, yet loaded sentence.
So, first off. Its NOT common sense. For every "I treat women as equals", you get people (often their dads, their relatives or their close friends) reinforcing things like "so when is the baby coming? Still on that carrierist stuff, huh?", and that is the least of it.

Second, what bullshit are feminists saying? Seriously. I am curious.

it's not only a female issue though, it's the same for us, I am 30 years old now and I still haven't a baby because I love having relationship with different women here and there and my relatives always said to me: When the fuck will you find the one and stop losing your time with those women ? Damn son, you're working too much, you're doing too much sport and lose time with your friends but you don't have time to find a good wife and make a baby ? you know dude, babies are what we are here for, we need te reproduce, just stabilize your life already... bla bla bla...

 

[Joelstinton14]

I don't understand why geek culture as such a big issue (perhaps it not, perhaps it is just a vocal minority) with issues such as feminism, culture and critical thinking about geek culture, amongst others.

Because growing up as a 90's kid (born in the 80's) a lot of geek culture was really open and progressive, and it still is. The people that i hung out with as a kid were because they were equally open minded and accepting of people. And no matter where i went, the common thing we all had were that we all liked geeky stuff. Even on forums as late as the earlier 00s, i still felt that was the case. But it really has blown up over the last few years into quite a toxic community.

I do wonder at times if people actually take in the stories contained in films, comics or books, because a lot of comments/anger/trolling goes against the very thing they are whinging about.

I've seen comments on youtube about the new Trek with some people getting angry that the show could have a second female captain. Like have they never ever watched Star Trek? Ever thought about the stories and ethical debates the show covers? If Trek was released now it be lambasted as SJW crap by a lot of these people.

 

[freeofgreed]

It is extremely prevalent. No offense but Geek culture just attracts the worst of the worst. Gaf is one of the few exceptions, but overall people who are into geek culture are extremely misogynistic.

 

[zoukka]

Geeks are one of the worst groups of people when it comes to supporting equality between the sexes.

Turns out, you become pretty sexist when you don't interact with real people in real life.

 

[Darth Ghandi]

You're overthinking things dude, relax, if someone is rude or hurts someone with stupid bigotry, they need to be called out and the outrage is legitimate but most of the times, people are just too sensitive now, I admit that my point of view change with Gaf on different subjects because this place is more diverse than others and it really help me to see things differently but most of the time, people here are offended for almost anything, there is an outrage culture that is blowing my mind...

Why do you feel guilty for being White ? did you do something that hurts other people ? You don't have to blame yourself for things other people do.



it's not only a female issue though, it's the same for us, I am 30 years old now and I still haven't a baby because I love having relationship with different women here and there and my relatives always said to me: When the fuck will you find the one and stop losing your time with those women ? Damn son, you're working too much, you're doing too much sport and lose time with your friends but you don't have time to find a good wife and make a baby ? you know dude, babies are what we are here for, we need te reproduce, just stabilize your life already... bla bla bla...

I still feel I must ask what part of feminism rubs you the wrong way.
The thing is I'm sick and tired of these fucking meta discussion about what people FEEL about certain topics.
I suggest that everyone starts talking REAL policies and real arguments that are being had, not some meta bullshit argument about tones, or "the conversation".

I would want to know what real topics you don't like.

 

[Amalthea]

I find it also very funny and revealing when some internet geeks think that somebody who ain't agreeing, that the latest episode of South Park was the pinaccle of western art must be the most extreme radical feminist ever.

Girl, you never even seen "radical".

 

[Corpekata]

If you want an example, there's one. Women can't even have the "expect babies" problem, some guy's always gotta be like "It's a problem for everyone!"

C'mon. Even if your anecdotal life has somehow led into a bunch of baby pushing, anyone with a healthy view of life experiences beyond their own can clearly see it's an entirely different volume for women. Hell I don't even think many MRAs would whine about that.

 

[Ruruja]

In my opinion there seems to be a strong correlation between people who were bullied at school (geeks usually) becoming bullies on the internet. You'd think they would be the least likely to do so, but I guess they see it as more of a revenge thing (against girls who picked on them or guys who bullied them).

 

[Psycho_Mantis]

I see what some of these people say and I find it real hard believing that they have even interacted with a girl before. Perhaps I am generalising but I feel a lot of them lack competent social skills.

 

[Apt101]

I was campaigning for the right-leaning party in my local uni elections (there were hot girls ok), and while I could talk to the left-leaning party, the far-left party screamed at me, called me a misogynist/bigot/gay-hater/xenophobe (I'm none of those things, I was trying to sign their petition for gay marriage ffs), that I was oppressing them by being at their table, that men were the problem. Hell they even caught me on video in their 'safe space'.

Now clearly they're an insane minority (and probably helped us in the election, we had multiple people voting for us to keep them out), but they're who I would think when I think of 'SJW's'. I agree with some of the positions that feminists and the LGBT community fights for, but it's hard to identify with them when you share a platform with people like that.

The really far left and the really far right share many traits, they just don't share the same ideals. Aggressiveness, conspiracy theories and/or pseudo science, cognitive dissonance, etc.

 

[Shredderi]

Geek culture was always this kind of an "outcast" group of people, mostly men. The group of people that showed most distaste for geeks were usually girls so maybe that helped create resentment towards women. Combine that with not interacting with people in general that much plus echo chambers and you have this wonderful coctail of bitter ignorance.

 

[CSJ]

Geek culture was always this kind of an "outcast" group of people, mostly men. The group of people that showed most distaste for geeks were usually girls so maybe that helped create resentment towards women. Combine that with not interacting with people in general that much plus echo chambers and you have this wonderful coctail of bitter ignorance.

You know, in my experience that hits home pretty close, I was a geeky kid and girls constantly bullied me (amongst other boys). To the point they'd physically do it knowing I couldn't fight back because they were in groups.

But I didn't turn out to be some sexist asshole, but all the ingredients were there to try make me one. Only thing I got out of that is that I was bullied for the shit I like now most of them do exactly the same stuff as adults.

 

[ArjanN]

I thought people who called themselves geeks were supposed to be a bit more knowledgeable and open minded. Nope.

I think in broad terms this actually does apply, but sexism in particular is sort of a blind spot there.

 

[Abstrusity]

I see what some of these people say and I find it real hard believing that they have even interacted with a girl before. Perhaps I am generalising but I feel a lot of them lack competent social skills.

That's my read on it, too -- generally speaking, they withdrew from social spheres near-completely. It didn't go their way, they reasoned that the women were at fault (instead of, y'know, themselves), and they found a number of people who figured the same. Before the advent of the internet, this wasn't much of a problem -- they stayed out of everyone's way, they weren't gathered together as one mass of misogynists, so the problem wasn't obvious.

...Now it is.

 

[Alienfan]

A person's exposure to a range of different view points and feedback they receive from real life interactions, help shape their views and bring them more inline with "socially acceptable behaviours". The internet lets you avoid this, allowing people to find communities that share their opinions and beliefs - a "safe space" where their own notions are rarely challenged and when they are, all they need to do is close a tab. The internet is true "freedom", there are no consequences to people's behaviours and so people's real attitudes come out. So yeah, when viewing geek culture through an outlet with no social repercussions, you're going to find shitty views. This isn't unique to geek culture of course, but the "dungeon dweller" stereotype probably has some truth to it, so I guess we just see more of it.

NeoGaf mimics real life more than most other forums (there are consequences), hence why people here are more well behaved. (thank goodness). But if the moderators all left for a week, this place would deteriorate for sure

 

[Ekai]

I find it also very funny and revealing when some internet geeks think that somebody who ain't agreeing, that the latest episode of South Park was the pinaccle of western art must be the most extreme radical feminist ever.

Girl, you never even seen "radical".

I'd love to see a shitstain of a show like SP actually address Terfs instead of low-hanging fruit like alt-right nonsensical talking points that disparage "PC culture" and "SJWs". It's nothing but a bunch of whining from geeks who don't get the issues.
But then their audience would be exposed to things that are actually "radical" and outside of their comfort zone.



To address the question proposed in the topic: unfortunately I'd say it's very popular. There's no way to quantify it but given personal experience, what I've seen, shit like GG, what happened with Kathy Sierra, SV, etc. etc.. It's very much a thing. People who isolate themselves into "safe spaces" (ironically of course since they condemn actual safe spaces from what they describe as a safe space) often have little exposure to others. They end up not getting that people besides the ones in their echo chamber have humanity. It's not just a symptom that pervades geek culture but it happens in other places too. It's unfortunate since geeky things should encourage wide-open acceptance due to the subject matter at hand and how people of various walks of life come to it. But toxic-masculinity ruins geek culture like it does a great many things.

 

[Henkka]

Depends what you mean by sexist ideas. I don't personally support the notion that removing boobs from a game's cover means we're "getting better". If you find it distasteful, just move on and buy some other game. Yeah, some games are aimed at horny 13-year old boys. So what? Harlequin novels are aimed at horny women, and nobody complains.

But I recognize that, for example, being a woman in online voice chat sucks. That should definitely be combated.

 

[Glendemonium]

What is SJW?

Wall Street Journal but scrambled.

Lots of those geek defense forces out on Reddit and 4chan feel "threatened" that other marginalized groups are taking gaming away from them, similar to how Jack Thompson wanted to ban games entirely back in the Clinton era. They cringe at the idea if the next big AAA game starred a woman with extreme feminist ideals or someone who identifies as LBGT.

Truth is, it's not like that at all. Even took me some time to sit and think a lot of this through back when feminism starting showing up in gaming forums. There have been some strides to change much of that. Like the new Lara Croft isn't used as a sex icon this time around unlike her first foray into games. Overwatch has a huge diverse cast of characters young and old (some animal or robot in this case).

 

[4Tran]

Depends what you mean by sexist ideas. I don't personally support the notion that removing boobs from a game's cover means we're "getting better". If you find it distasteful, just move on and buy some other game. Yeah, some games are aimed at horny 13-year old boys. So what? Harlequin novels are aimed at horny women, and nobody complains.

Huh? People make fun of Harlequin novels all the time. Do you live in an alternate universe where books like Fifty Shades of Grey is free from criticism?

 

[Timedog]

"Not at all"

-Misogynists

 

[Dr.Acula]

It's self-selection. The tolerant communities will attract the tolerant, the intolerant ones the intolerant.

If you got a theatre full of people for whatever sci-fi/fantasy/comic franchise, a small number would be involved enough to know all the social media controversy and have had posted on some message board one way or another. 90+% of the people in that theatre just want to watch a movie.

 

[Nepenthe]

In my experience, geek cultures tend to be a hotbed of prejudice because they try to operate on meritocratic, utopian, "No drama" ideals of celebrating whatever medium or franchise they're centered around, ironically making them that much more likely to leave subconscious prejudices unchecked.

Representation is garbage? That's just the free market at work, and if you'd really cared you'd make your own products like us white men do. But God forbid the company makes a game design decision we don't like, then we're bitching on GAF and sending cupcakes to the developer.

Taking a stand and not buying some product because the creator is a racist? You're adding politics to something that's apolitical. Games live in a magical vacuum where they're made by people who leave every single non game-making thought at the door. But let me defend why the new Deus Ex game's Aug Lives Matter makes the game so relevant and hip.

In short, geek cultures thrive on a veneer of "one big happy family of enthusiasts" to cover the rampant bullshit under the surface because they're full of privileged people or people who were bullied and have an axe to grind. It's like if America was established on a console war.

 

[RalchAC]

In my opinion there seems to be a strong correlation between people who were bullied at school (geeks usually) becoming bullies on the internet. You'd think they would be the least likely to do so, but I guess they see it as more of a revenge thing (against girls who picked on them or guys who bullied them).

It's not only the Internet. It's something rather surprising, but I've acted as a volunteer with kids and early teens and sometimes you see bullied kids bullying others when they find somebody that is weaker or more vulnerable than them.

They are angry, frustrated, have an inferiority complex and may find satisfaction in seeing other people suffering like they did/do.

The Internet just allows this people to pick up a fight against whoever they want as long as they can get a crowd of scumbags to help.

 

[Media]

I could see the bullying theory being true. It just sucks that these guys don't get that girls who grew up as geeks were bullied too. Good lord high school was a shit show for me. I didn't like makeup or fashion so the girls hated me, and I didn't like sports so everyone hated me, etc.

I didn't grow up to be a bully online. If anything, the experience made me kinder.

 

[Henkka]

Huh? People make fun of Harlequin novels all the time. Do you live in an alternate universe where books like Fifty Shades of Grey is free from criticism?

They're made fun of, sure... But when did you last hear that harlequin novels set impossible standards for men, negatively impact their self-esteem, or that women who enjoy those books should grow up? The nature of the criticism is entirely different.

 

[rhandino]

In my country they are very popular.

Hell, on one of my previous jobs there was an internal mandate to never contract women as programmers because they would "distract" the guys on the team or that thet flat out suck compared to her male peers.

Funnily enough, at the time, I worked on the area dedicated to repair hardware and we oursourced everything related to Monitors, TV, Stereos, Alarms, etc... to a cool lady that was 40 years old because all her peers said she was the best of her field and she really was.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

It's sadly overwhelming... GAF is one of the few safe havens from that bullshit. Everywhere else is a compendium of cuck this, SJW that.

Yep, used to say "I don't really play games anymore, I just read about them and watch them," but can't even do that now.

Sheltered racist and sexist dweebs have found each other on the Internet. They have their friends who also don't know shit about the world outside of their room.

 

[4Tran]

They're made fun of, sure... But when did you last hear that harlequin novels set impossible standards for men, negatively impact their self-esteem, or that women who enjoy those books should grow up? The nature of the criticism is entirely different.

That happens all the time, not only in public discussion but within scholarly research as well. And it's for all types of romance novels, from teen romances, to Harlequin novels, and to outright erotica. Video games are far from being singled out here. If anything, video gaming is a relatively new medium, and it gets criticized less than it should because proper criticism hasn't been built up yet. Compare it to film criticism which has been around for almost a hundred years or literary criticism that has been around forever.

Yep, used to say "I don't really play games anymore, I just read about them and watch them," but can't even do that now.

Sheltered racist and sexist dweebs have found each other on the Internet. They have their friends who also don't know shit about the world outside of their room.

The bigger deal isn't how many of them there are, but the fact that they can organize and how they can vocalize vile views.

 

[bengraven]

Remember when it was as simple as "SHE ONLY PRETENDS TO LIKE STAR WARS FOR ATTENTION". Ah, misogyny has grown so many heads since those old days.

 

[ThoughtsOfSpeaking]

let's employ that logic with blacks/whites and see how far it gets us, then think a little bit about context

Sex is not race. Nor is it gender. Nor is it nationality. Once again, trying to draw parallels between equally complex issues, that have country miles of difference in nuance is not helpful.

Bringing attention to male specific issues is not mysoginisic.

Bringing attention to race specific issues is not racist

Bringing attention to national issues is not nationalistic.

And so on and so forth.

 

[IrishNinja]

Sex is not race. Nor is it gender. Nor is it nationality. Once again, trying to draw parallels between equally complex issues, that have country miles of difference in nuance is not helpful.

Bringing attention to male specific issues is not mysoginisic.

Bringing attention to race specific issues is not racist

Bringing attention to national issues is not nationalistic.

And so on and so forth.

excellent logic; since everything's on an even keel for you, i implore you to research efforts specific to the white race, and MRA/pro-male stuff. according to you, neither subject should, by nature, lend itself to racism or misogyny, so this should be a fruitful endeavor, surely without any overlap of any kind, given the complexity of said issues.

Yep, used to say "I don't really play games anymore, I just read about them and watch them," but can't even do that now.

Sheltered racist and sexist dweebs have found each other on the Internet. They have their friends who also don't know shit about the world outside of their room.

makes me kinda grateful i don't mess with much gaming culture beyond here - well, a few retro boards, but i know better than to discuss politics/anything outside of old games there

starting to wonder how long it'll be before someone rocks a "LEIGH WAS RIGHT" shirt

 

[devilhawk]

excellent logic; since everything's on an even keel for you, i implore you to research efforts specific to the white race, and MRA/pro-male stuff. according to you, neither subject should, by nature, lend itself to racism or misogyny, so this should be a fruitful endeavor, surely without any overlap of any kind, given the complexity of said issues.

My place of work has people researching men's specific issues. There are even women in those groups working hard at the research. They are making really good progress despite not getting the same funding to the women's equivalent.

 

[IrishNinja]

My place of work has people researching men's specific issues. There are even women in those groups working hard at the research. They are making really good progress despite not getting the same funding to the women's equivalent.

i don't know if you're bringing marketing or something else into a cultural thread on misogyny, but...good, i guess?

 

[devilhawk]

i don't know if you're bringing marketing or something else into a cultural thread on misogyny, but...good, i guess?

Nah, prostate cancer.

It's pretty sad that we have actually seen gender politics come up in funding where groups don't want money to go to certain gender-specific cancers.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I feel like it used to better, in a way. It wasn't the 'bitches need to get the fuck out of geekdom cuck cuck cuck!' shit. It was more the 'omg a girl?! Wow! I'll be super nice.in the hopes you'll pay attention to me!' kind. Annoying, but less scary than this newest stuff.

Yup yup yup

In the 90's, this was 100% my experience as a girl online. I don't know what the fuck happened, but it's depressing.

 

[stuminus3]

Put it this way - most of you probably haven't noticed, but there's a tendency for NeoGAF users to post topics that are worded as if they presume every other NeoGAF member is a straight white male like they are, especially in OT and in particular topics relating to sex and dating (see the "do you like to eat out" thread for an example). Considering how progressive NeoGAF is supposed to be as a community I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Henkka]

Put it this way - most of you probably haven't noticed, but there's a tendency for NeoGAF users to post topics that are worded as if they presume every other NeoGAF member is a straight white male like they are, especially in OT and in particular topics relating to sex and dating (see the "do you like to eat out" thread for an example). Considering how progressive NeoGAF is supposed to be as a community I think that speaks volumes.

The dating thread is also titled "Just ask her out already"

But I wouldn't object to a predominantly female forum naming their threads the opposite way so eh

 

[Red]

Yup yup yup

In the 90's, this was 100% my experience as a girl online. I don't know what the fuck happened, but it's depressing.

I think what happened is women became more visible. As they gain more of a presence, insecure males feel their ownership of the hobby threatened. The industry was forced to appeal to people more broadly, and eroded the straight male-oriented foundation. So those man children who are especially insecure shout and beat their chests in a flaccid gesture to reclaim the good old days.

 

[redlegs87]

Nah, prostate cancer.

It's pretty sad that we have actually seen gender politics come up in funding where groups don't want money to go to certain gender-specific cancers.

I remember seeing some article or op-ed which basically came down to prostate cancer is a male privilege. I was dumbfounded reading it.

Yup yup yup

In the 90's, this was 100% my experience as a girl online. I don't know what the fuck happened, but it's depressing.

I once saw a d&d group ata game store basically run a woman out of their group. I had talked with her when she came in she was really looking forward to trying something new. It was sad seeing her get up from the table looking very upset and leaving as fast as she could after just 20 mins into the campaign. I wasn't part of the group I was doing board games with friends. I didn't hear what happened to cause her to leave like that but I asked an older guy in their group what happened he told me that like half the group decided to kill her character for no reason other than being female. I was very upset and told the manager about it was told it'd be handled. 2 weeks later same group is back like nothing happened. I asked the manager what is it he did exactly and was told he only revoked their discounts on snacks they had for being long time patrons. Never gone back to that place since then.

 

[G-Fex]

geek culture is the fucking worst.

 

[Aiustis]

Pretty popular, but I feel like it's no worse than with the general population. It just feels expressed more.

I do think that there are more spaces where people don't tolerate misogyny than ever before.

 

[Tye The Czar]

They're pretty popular. One look at Reddit says as much.

I'd say just about any online community that's not NeoGAF.