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DF Retro: SoulCalibur - Beyond Arcade Perfect

ss_lemonade

ss_lemonade

Member
Soul Calibur had so much unlockable shit, I just kept playing and playing getting all the characters and finishing mission mode, without a memory card lol.

But man, it sure was an amazing looking game when it came out. The jump from playing the n64 games we had to this was crazy
 
J

jett

D-Member
Harry Stewart said:
The jump from years of PSone and N64 graphics to Soul Calibur at launch was mind-blowing in a way I am not sure can be replicated at the graphical heights of today. The "I didn't even know this was possible" effect how good it looked, and played. As John says, I can't think of a less controversial choice for perfect 10 review score.
Click to expand...

There will never be a bigger graphical jump than going from the dregs of 3D gaming to the Dreamcast.
 
InfiniteCombo

InfiniteCombo

Banned
jett said:
There will never be a bigger graphical jump than going from the dregs of 3D gaming to the Dreamcast.
Click to expand...

Goddamn right.

The game still looks great to this day. If you hook up your Dreamcast via VGA, it's just... Whoa.

"Welcome back to the stage of history!" remains my favorite thing that anyone says in any video game select screen ever.
 
T

Tyaren

Member
*imagines how amazing Soul Calibur 6 would look on PS4*

smug_obama.jpg
 
R

RoboPlato

I'd be in the dick
Loved this episode. I still have fond memories of the first time I played the Dreamcast release. Demo units were set up at the mall shortly before launch and my jaw dropped when I saw SC. Sonic Adventure was what I came to see but SC blew my mind at what was possible on console hardware. I still think it looks attractive.
 
M

mattwhite924

Member
jett said:
I gotta say, I watch these DF Retro vids on a 42" screen and I'm consistently surprised how clean these SD games look.
Click to expand...

I really wish TVs had a game mode scaler. I know that's wishful thinking, but it's amazing how good SD stuff can look when it's not ran through the same scaler designed for video footage look decent.
 
C

Cow Mengde

Banned
Wow, the graphics really do hold up really well today. I'm very surprised. I think it holds up better than some later DC games.
 
D

Dead Man Typing

Member
I remember preferring the way Soul Calibur 1 looked when compared to Soul Calibur 2.

Maybe I was wearing Dreamcast fanboy goggles at the time but I remember not being impressed with SC2. When thrvfirst is such a great looking game, due to the quality of the art and animation.
 
xabbott

xabbott

Member
RS4- said:
And it's a shame really, great mode scrapped all because of the lol 200 MB limit.
Click to expand...

The limits are a strange artifact of being very early to digital distribution on consoles. I listened to one of the creators of XBL Arcade on a Kinda Funny podcast. He talked about how they were worried about retailer concerns if they sold games directly on the console. Sounds like so many things were being decided after the fact.
 
P

PSGames

Junior Member
I can't think of a single fighting game that impressed me as much graphically. It just blew away anything else out there and had an enormous amount of content to boot. This game alone was worth the price of a DC at the time.
 
K

Knurek

Member
John, you said since SoulCalibur on arcades used System 12 board it wasn't possible to make a PS1 port, but this doesn't account for the fact that both Ehrgeiz and Tekken 3 used System 12 as well, and both had PS1 ports.
 
S

Smokey

Member
Love all of the content DF is putting out. The only Patreon I support.

Soul Calibur was a legit game changing experience. Being able to get these graphics, at launch no less, was mind blowing. Not even a huge fan of fighting games, but this game was perfect for its time.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Knurek said:
John, you said since SoulCalibur on arcades used System 12 board it wasn't possible to make a PS1 port, but this doesn't account for the fact that both Ehrgeiz and Tekken 3 used System 12 as well, and both had PS1 ports.
Click to expand...
Based on interviews, the developers themselves noted that the heavy focus on z-axis animations (in particular, Ivy) was problematic.

I think Soul Calibur is a more ambitious System 12 game than Ehrgeiz and Tekken 3.

Smokey said:
Love all of the content DF is putting out. The only Patreon I support.

Soul Calibur was a legit game changing experience. Being able to get these graphics, at launch no less, was mind blowing. Not even a huge fan of fighting games, but this game was perfect for its time.
Click to expand...
Thanks man! Keeps me going. Had to edit this one in less than two days so it was intense!
 
J

Jinroh

Member
It was the most jaw dropping game I ever played. Playing this when you come from Tekken 3 felt like skipping a whole generation. Even the inside of the fighter's mouths was modelized. The animations, movements and level of detail were all incredible.

I was bored with two friends during the summer of 99 so I decided to buy a japanese dreamcast and soul calibur. It was incredible.

I still don't understand why they replaced "Ring out" with "Out of the ring" on the western versions though. It's a really strange decision.
 
kunonabi

kunonabi

Member
InfiniteCombo said:
Goddamn right.

The game still looks great to this day. If you hook up your Dreamcast via VGA, it's just... Whoa.

"Welcome back to the stage of history!" remains my favorite thing that anyone says in any video game select screen ever.
Click to expand...

I was still rocking composite during the Dreamcast days but going back to it a few years ago with VGA was eye-opening. Soul Calibur, Shenmue, etc are just gorgeous for their age. I've been more impressed revisiting those games than with any of the current technical showcases despite their objectively higher quality.
 
M

master15

Member
Another excellent DF Retro.

Like many here I was completely blown away by the game coming from a N64. Such fond memories playing this.
 
K

Knurek

Member
dark10x said:
Based on interviews, the developers themselves noted that the heavy focus on z-axis animations (in particular, Ivy) was problematic.

I think Soul Calibur is a more ambitious System 12 game than Ehrgeiz and Tekken 3.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure about Ehrgeiz, but with Tekken 3, have you looked at the actual arcade version?
PS1 port was some downright wizardry, but still had downgrades aplenty.
I'm guessing potential PS1 port of SC1 would lose the 3D backgrounds and drop to 30 fps.

Also, one other thing - you mention the arcade OST and the fact that Dreamcast version had it intact but streamed.
Fun fact: The whole game sound data took 512 kB for sequence/program and 8 MB for samples (this also included all voice overs/SFX, so actual music took even less than that) while the Dreamcast port's has massive (for the time) 450+ MB (due to using 16-bit 44kHz PCM). I have to wonder why they didn't port the sequences, as actual System 12 sound hardware was inferior to AICA (32 PCM channels, vs AICA's 64). I'm guessing space was less of an issue with GD-ROMs than the time it'd took to port the sequence data...

(Dead or Alive 2 is even weirder - Naomi version uses sequences, while the Dreamcast has ADPCM streams, even despite both games using the same sound hardware. Might be due to larger RAM pool on Naomi)...
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
Knurek said:
I'm not sure about Ehrgeiz, but with Tekken 3, have you looked at the actual arcade version?
PS1 port was some downright wizardry, but still had downgrades aplenty.
I'm guessing potential PS1 port of SC1 would lose the 3D backgrounds and drop to 30 fps.

Also, one other thing - you mention the arcade OST and the fact that Dreamcast version had it intact but streamed.
Fun fact: The whole game sound data took 512 kB for sequence/program and 8 MB for samples (this also included all voice overs/SFX, so actual music took even less than that) while the Dreamcast port's has massive (for the time) 450+ MB (due to using 16-bit 44kHz PCM). I have to wonder why they didn't port the sequences, as actual System 12 sound hardware was inferior to AICA (32 PCM channels, vs AICA's 64). I'm guessing space was less of an issue with GD-ROMs than the time it'd took to port the sequence data...

(Dead or Alive 2 is even weirder - Naomi version uses sequences, while the Dreamcast has ADPCM streams, even despite both games using the same sound hardware. Might be due to larger RAM pool on Naomi)...
Click to expand...
Yeah, I've seen the arcade release and the PS1 version is a definite downgrade but I still think Soul Calibur is a step up from Tekken 3 on System 12.

The audio thing IS weird, I agree. I'd assume that disc space simply wasn't a concern and it was quicker for them to go this route. Since the whole game was made for Dreamcast in 7 months, it was probably one of the choices they made to save time.

Weirdly enough, I've always liked the sequenced sound of the music and feel that it lost a little something in subsequent games where they pushed the production values out. There is a certain "crunchiness" to the sound samples in the originals that I enjoy.
 
MrCunningham

MrCunningham

Member
dark10x said:
Yes, but the 3DFX arcade games were pretty shit with generally low frame-rates. Hydro Thunder was one of the best ones but it was still just 30fps.

The Voodoo based Rush games are not great.

The Dreamcast version of Rush 2049 definitely does run better.
Click to expand...

Rush 2049 ran at 30FPS with bouts of slowdown, It does use a MIPS RM5000 CPU with a 3DFX Voodoo 3 Chipset. The Dreamcast version stays much closer to 60FPS, but still doesn't run at a perfect 60FPS. Many people criticized Sega for not going with a Voodoo based chipset for the Dreamcast, but a game like Rush 2049 may be a good case for why they chose to go with a PowerVR2 chipset instead.

But yeah, generally speaking the Dreamcast ports of Rush 2049 and Hydro Thunder are better than their arcade counterparts as well, and were even used as the base for the PS2, Xbox and GCN ports that were packaged with Midway Arcade Treasures 3. I haven't played any of these version's, but I hear that they are locked at a perfect 60FPS.

Personally, I think the Rush games (maybe just the original and 2049) would make a good DFRetro. A lot of people do have fond memories of playing the original Rush and 2049 on the N64 and in the arcades. Hydro Thunder might even be a good choice as well.
 
SkylineRKR

SkylineRKR

Member
Tekken 3 was the first System 12 game, it wasn't the most impressive game on that hardware. Which is why the Ps1 port is fairly competent. Its not exactly arcade perfect (the backgrounds and floors took a huge hit), but it was good enough.

Tekken Tag Tournament offered better graphics, 2 v 2 and a bigger roster on the same hardware. Soul Calibur has the full 3D gameplay and animations. No way Ps1 could run those 2 games without sacrificing a lot.
 
K

kuYuri

Member
It's a shame the 360 version is missing content, would have likely been the definitive version if it had the mission mode and the intro.
 
F

FTF

Member
Such an amazing game. And other than Super Mario 64, this is probably my favorite launch game of all time.
 
SkylineRKR

SkylineRKR

Member
kuYuri said:
It's a shame the 360 version is missing content, would have likely been the definitive version if it had the mission mode and the intro.
Click to expand...

Ported during a wrong era. The era of size limits on digital games, because of Xbox.

If it would come out later during that generation, it would've been fully in tact. Though SC2 HD for some reason came out with only 1 language track and no 5.1. Still, no content was cut (added, such as disappointing netplay). SC1 deserves better than that shitty 360 port though.
 
Erebus

Erebus

Member
jett said:
Ah perfect! Just yesterday (for some reason) I was looking at vids comparing TTT (PS2) against Soul Calibur.

protip: TTT looks a generation behind in motion, and its infinite backgrounds just look fucked. Ah man, the Dreamcast got a raw deal.

I gotta say, I watch these DF Retro vids on a 42" screen and I'm consistently surprised how clean these SD games look.
Click to expand...
I remember TTT looking much better than SC back in the day, at least to me. However, I acknowledge that technically SC was ahead of its time compared to TTT.
 
GeNoMe

GeNoMe

Member
Listening to the OST right now. I fucking adore this game! Countless hours I have poured in to honing my skills against family and friends alike. I was absolutely blown away by everything it stands for!

I miss you old friend! Man this music takes me back! Thanks DF retro for rekindling my love for this game!
 
Z

ZombiePlatypus

Member
Man it really was something special on DC.

I dunno wtf it is with Dreamcast, but it had some amazing looking lighting and shadow effects on the characters. I can't put my finger on it, but something about the shading and colors with is games has not been captured or replicated again with games and hardware that followed it.
 
psychotron

psychotron

Member
I remember getting my dreamcast with Crazy Taxi and Soul Calibur. I've never been as blown away graphically. The jump from PS1 to that was incredible. Then I got Powerstone and fell in love all over again. That poor system deserved better.
 
R

rjc571

Banned
KillerMan91 said:
Well in handheld space I would say jump to PSP was even more impressive. We got from SNES graphics of GBA to almost PS2 level with PSP.
Click to expand...

That's kind of a mischaracterization, the GBA's capabilities were quite a bit beyond the SNES while the PSP wasn't really all that close to the PS2. 3D graphics on the PSP suffered from a lot of the same issues that plagued the PS1/N64 era like muddy textures, low framerates and terrible IQ, so even though it was a big technical leap over the GBA its 3D games weren't really all that aesthetically pleasing compared to GBA games which featured high quality 2D artwork.
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
When I interviewed Hiroaki Yotoriyama during the release of the game, I asked him if he thought this was the best game he's made, and whether he'd be able to top it. He laughed and said something to the effect of, "Yes, but I don't know if I can." And honestly, although the later games refined the battle system and added more characters, SoulCalibur is the one I have the most nostalgia for.

There was something in particular about the lightning in this one. There was an atmospheric softness that was lost in the transition to other platforms.
 
L

Lettuce

Member
Soul Calibur 5 was such a backward step im not even sure Namco know what to do with the series anymore and whos idea was it to put Darth Fucking Vader and Yoda in SC4!!!....so was SC2 the actual last great SC game?
 
mindatlarge

mindatlarge

Member
Played the hell out of this game on DC back in the day. This and Power Stone really got me interested in different types of fighting games other than just Street Fighter. Nice to see DF giving the DC and this game some love.
 
G

ghibli99

Member
Great memories. While arcade perfect was already a thing at that point (of course, many of those games had more options/modes than the arcade too), getting something that blew away the arcade version in terms of graphics was something still pretty new. I remember thinking at that point that arcades' days were probably numbered. I'm sure a lot of others thought the same thing, sadly.
 
D

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
rjc571 said:
That's kind of a mischaracterization, the GBA's capabilities were quite a bit beyond the SNES while the PSP wasn't really all that close to the PS2. 3D graphics on the PSP suffered from a lot of the same issues that plagued the PS1/N64 era like muddy textures, low framerates and terrible IQ, so even though it was a big technical leap over the GBA its 3D games weren't really all that aesthetically pleasing compared to GBA games which featured high quality 2D artwork.
Click to expand...
Still, seeing Ridge Racers in 2004 was very memorable. A 60fps racer with visuals of that quality on a handheld seemed impossible. They did a nice job including specular highlights, reflections, decent geometry and great use of color. Still a handsome game today.

I think it's quite a bit beyond PS1/N64, though. Plenty of 60fps games and many with Dreamcast level visuals. It suffered from a lower color depth with obvious dithering and the lack of mip-maps (like PS2) meant that shimmering was an issue but at least everything was perspective correct and filtered with much higher resolution textures than N64.

Just a small number of great looking PSP games. Definitely a huge step over PS1/N64 in most areas, I'd say. It's like a portable Dreamcast with worse image quality (though at least all games were native resolution)

nTvc.jpg
 
F

flattie

Member
Another great Retro piece. Thanks DF.

This was such an amazing game - the smoothness of it all was what stood out to me. So clean, both in terms of appearance and animation.

At the time, it was the biggest wow moment since the Model 3 VF3 reveal.
 
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