PersonAndStuff
Member
It seems weird how people have so turned against Whedon. I get there is some some in Ultron that many people took issue with but in this age of actual Nazis you really shouldn't be using up so much ire on an imperfect good guy.
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Joss Whedons leaked Wonder Woman screenplay is mindblowingly sexist
- Thread starter richiek
- Start date
Secret Fawful
Member
Yeah...I don't really believe he made this, so I'd like to see some kind of confirmation.
excelsiorlef
Member
It also made a shit ton of money so hardly a DUD and fall from grace lol.
WaffleTaco
Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
One could argue that the only reason this got leaked was because "Wonder Woman" is both a critical and financial success and they thought that it would be neat to compare the original script to the new movie. However, they did not bother to verify if it even was his, and most articles just seem to be attacking Josh Whedon. Furthermore, we shouldn't be treating this as fact, but as a rumored script.
thats how it works. People want to be outraged so much they don't care if its true or not.
Baron von Loathsome
Member
The artist, Jim Lee.
Uh, that wasn't like that? She was a monster cause she was an assassin.
The childless thing came into play because Banner mentions it would be impossible to have children with him cause he's the motherfucking Hulk, BW replies with "i can't have children anyway, so it's not a deal breaker for me". That was the point of her bringing up she can't have babies.
Regardless, i always found that Whedon's writing to not be as good as people say. Im not surprised his original script saounded like strawman land both for men and feminism.
The leaks are real. The script is fake.
John Kowalski
Banned
Fuckin l o l
whatsinaname
Member
TWrecks310
Banned
I can't
I would pay so much to read a complete Wonder Woman graphic novel written and drawn by Kate Beaton.
Reads like satire to me a bit....doesn't matter though. Let's forget every other thing he's done that has strong independent females in starring roles! This is beyond the pail!!! I'm so distraught over this, I'm cutting off my penis in solidarity for anyone offended with an unreleased, 10 year old script!
Jest Chillin
Member
The thing about Whedon is that he doesn't shy away from presenting beauty and sex. So while he often has "strong" female characters (and not always physical, Firefly's female characters are all strong but not all physically strong) he also doesn't shy away from things that could be viewed as objectification.
Even his "good" characters will occasionally shame or objectify. For example, in Firefly, the Inara character is beautiful, sensual, and sexual. She's a "Companion" which is more or less a high class call girl. So she spends a lot of the show doing her job. In the Firefly universe though, being a Companion is a respected position for the most part. In fact, Inara's being a Companion allows the ship a modicum of respect when it travels to the more civilized areas of the system as the ship itself and the rest of it's crew are looked at as ragtag classes criminals. Even so, the main character who is the hero, often insults Inara and her reputation. He doesn't respect it. She doesn't take his shit though and gives more than she gets by way of insults and often has to save Mal from himself. All of this is couched in a "they love each other but don't want to admit it" kind of way that really harkens back to the way children can act towards one another. That's one part of the characters flaws.
I'm not sure I described that all that well and of course people will take what they will from my description but what I'm attempting to illustrate is that Whedon often writes characters with dualities. Both men and women. A part of that is that even his strong female characters have vulnerabilities, needs, and desires that result in them, for example, many times not passing the Bechdel Test.
So for many those types of characters don't come across as models of feminism or the result of feminist ideals. I guess they come across as half measures or disingenuous attempts at representing feminist ideals? It probably comes down to how people think of feminism. Like, and I hope I'm describing this clearly, a character like Moana who has no need, desire for, or dependence on a male character vs. a character like Joan from Mad Men. This comparison isn't to equate the complexity of Joan to any of Whedon's characters but to illustrate a character with zero sexualization vs one with heavy sexualization but both still being strong characters with agency.
I hope that makes sense.
Even his "good" characters will occasionally shame or objectify. For example, in Firefly, the Inara character is beautiful, sensual, and sexual. She's a "Companion" which is more or less a high class call girl. So she spends a lot of the show doing her job. In the Firefly universe though, being a Companion is a respected position for the most part. In fact, Inara's being a Companion allows the ship a modicum of respect when it travels to the more civilized areas of the system as the ship itself and the rest of it's crew are looked at as ragtag classes criminals. Even so, the main character who is the hero, often insults Inara and her reputation. He doesn't respect it. She doesn't take his shit though and gives more than she gets by way of insults and often has to save Mal from himself. All of this is couched in a "they love each other but don't want to admit it" kind of way that really harkens back to the way children can act towards one another. That's one part of the characters flaws.
I'm not sure I described that all that well and of course people will take what they will from my description but what I'm attempting to illustrate is that Whedon often writes characters with dualities. Both men and women. A part of that is that even his strong female characters have vulnerabilities, needs, and desires that result in them, for example, many times not passing the Bechdel Test.
So for many those types of characters don't come across as models of feminism or the result of feminist ideals. I guess they come across as half measures or disingenuous attempts at representing feminist ideals? It probably comes down to how people think of feminism. Like, and I hope I'm describing this clearly, a character like Moana who has no need, desire for, or dependence on a male character vs. a character like Joan from Mad Men. This comparison isn't to equate the complexity of Joan to any of Whedon's characters but to illustrate a character with zero sexualization vs one with heavy sexualization but both still being strong characters with agency.
I hope that makes sense.
Too late...my penis is in the sink.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is why it got "leaked"
It's been around for awhile. Someone on twitter broke it back out (after having read it prior and wondering if a revisit would play differently after seeing Jenkins' movie), which is why this thread exists.
It's a real draft from his time on the project.
He & Warners parted ways because he couldn't crack the screenplay to either his or their satisfaction.
To make this more interesting: There are rumors that Whedon's doctoring was not limited to Justice League. That when he was brought in awhile ago (which people didn't learn about until after Snyder left the project) he wasn't just brought in to write Batgirl, but simultaneously to assist in some capacity on both Justice League AND Wonder Woman.
Not sure if that last bit about his helping/assisting with Wonder Woman in any way is at all true (it doesn't seem to be the case, considering his response to the film's marketing as quoted prior in the thread, but who knows).
ANYWAY This draft is a real draft of Wonder Woman by Joss Whedon. The project fell apart due to his inability to get the script where either he or Warners wanted to get it. He later went off to work with Marvel, at which point he helped on large chunks of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and made two Avengers movies before he left Marvel and ultimately went back to work at Warners.
Fancyarcher
Member
Basically, what a failure, ha.
Mr. Luchador
Member
Even Buffy was propped up by Male Role Models, I don't think there was a season where she wasn't in a romantic affair either. Let's not forget the horrible treatment of Ripley either, and the strange sexual tension going on between her, the crew and her alien monster.
which makes me sad because putting aside Frank millers lunacy writing and plain established character murder in All star Batman , the Artwork is downright Gorgeous and completely wasted in it .
Puck Beaverton
Banned
Frank Miller's insanity is amusing.
Well, barring the racism.
Well, barring the racism.
Sarcastic Poster
Member
Joss Whedon is god awful.
Bobby, I take back all the "can you fly, Bobby" jokes I made. That was an awesome bit of context for this thread. Thanks.
excelsiorlef
Member
Lol ok.
Haven't seen any Alien except the first, but on the Ripley thing. I'd have to dig it out, but I think one of the ideas that didn't make it into the first Alien was that the whole crew has a lot of casual sex. One of the hints that Ash was a robot was supposed to be that he was the only one who didn't have an interest.
I've heard Joss Whedon described as something like a closet sexist over ten years ago, though I've never really watched any of his stuff and don't have an opinion on him. Was there something else that came up earlier that gave people that impression?
Also, I need to finish All Star Batman & Robin. Probably the only superhero comic I've actually enjoyed reading. Obviously not for the reasons Frank Miller intended.
excelsiorlef
Member
Pretty sure Frank Miller did write that.
Imperial Bishop
Banned
Jesus Christ.
What year is this script set in? 1974?
starchild excalibur
Member
I agree with some of the stuff in the OP being pretty sexist (but honestly, also just laborious and unnecessary in its descriptions), but I disagree with this:
Steve Trevor in the Jenkins's WW also explains things to Diana. And the thing is - this isn't inherently a bad thing no matter how much you call it "mansplaining" just because he's a dude. A core element of their relationship is that she's been isolated and holds ideas about the world that run in stark opposition to how Steve - as someone who lives in the "real" world - sees things. Steve explaining things to Diana in Whedon's version isn't problematic unless it's solely used to correct her mistakes ad nauseam. As a launching off point to compare and contrast the characters' philosophies and set Diana up for a character arc, it's not sexist at all unless you feel like only a woman can explain things to another woman.
And the part with the gangster being sexist to the girl hanging around him seems to obviously be the point of that character - to portray him as despicable. You could argue that it's an unnecessary character trait for him to have, or that there are other ways to depict it, but having a character who is sexist in a story doesn't make the story or the writer's view of that world sexist.
Steve Trevor in the Jenkins's WW also explains things to Diana. And the thing is - this isn't inherently a bad thing no matter how much you call it "mansplaining" just because he's a dude. A core element of their relationship is that she's been isolated and holds ideas about the world that run in stark opposition to how Steve - as someone who lives in the "real" world - sees things. Steve explaining things to Diana in Whedon's version isn't problematic unless it's solely used to correct her mistakes ad nauseam. As a launching off point to compare and contrast the characters' philosophies and set Diana up for a character arc, it's not sexist at all unless you feel like only a woman can explain things to another woman.
And the part with the gangster being sexist to the girl hanging around him seems to obviously be the point of that character - to portray him as despicable. You could argue that it's an unnecessary character trait for him to have, or that there are other ways to depict it, but having a character who is sexist in a story doesn't make the story or the writer's view of that world sexist.
Yeah, all scripts start as drafts
EXT: Chopper shot as we fly over Themescara. The audience takes in the island as we guide them to the Training Grounds. Cut to camera flying low over two mounds, cresting their peaks to reveal two warriors in a field on the other side.
DIANA is hard at work, under the guidance of a statuesque ANTIOPE. We see the two figures silhouetted against the afternoon sun.
Close-up of DIANA in profile as she bends at the waist, legs slightly splayed in a classic A stance, knees locked, ass pushing backwards as her torso lowers. The camera pans up from her naked feet, toes wet from the dewy grass (note: perhaps Themescaran dew is a little viscous), capturing the raw athletic strength of each muscle as we glide over her firm, feminist calves, to her tight, chiseled quads, shining with oil; and linger at her firm, round, juicy, edible ass; barely concealed under her empowered Amazonian armour (note: cue Gal to relax her anus. We won't see it, but we'll sense her detached control). DIANA is focused, but not nervous. She's precise, like a cat. We're emphasising that strong women can also be sexy, since most of the unenlightened audience won't have imagined this concept before.
Pull in tighter as we slide down the curve of her back to her glistening deltoid, her bouncy hair spilling like well-conditioned syrup over her shoulder; and follow a bead of sweat as it races over her bicep and tricep to the crease of her elbow.
Cut to her face: full, moist, clitsucking lips slightly parted to give us a glimpse of her pearlescent teeth as her exquisitely sculpted eyebrows furrow in concentration. Her nostrils twitch absently as if she can smell sun-kissed quim on the island winds.
Don't let the camera spend time at her cleavage as we pan to her forearms. This isn't your average superhero movie for 30 year old man-children; were doing this for women everywhere, no matter how big, small, pendulous, or perky their titties nay be. Stay mindful.
Her forearms throb as she works, and we see her pinky raised in defiance of the patriarchy as her long, elegant, manicured fingers dexterously manipulate a pair of golden Themescaran tweezers. She lets out the most delicate exhalation (a subtle "ah" released from her throat with an emphasised non-phonetic glottle stop) as she drops another peppercorn into a ceramic dish before symbolically thrusting her tool back into the pile of horseshit. Synchronise this with an orchestra hit as the WW theme kicks in, and the title card explodes onto the screen in a shower of wet gold.
Get this right, and everyone in the theatre cums in their pants - men and women - and once again I, Joss Whedon, will have elevated The Discourse through mindful depictions of powerful women in mainstream cinema.
Ripley's character was originally supposed to be a man, and was changed at the last minute.
And with good reason.
.Found a quote:
Not going to listen to the audio commentary now, but if it's true, that's where it is.
Majukun
Member
Well the part about the women island lacking interest in the fate of the rest of the world is in the movie in the cinema too... Diana is the only one that actually cares enough about the world to do something, the other amazons are pretty much OK with just stay on their island and defend that and that alone.
Because he did. That's from the All-Star Batman and Robin script.
Puck Beaverton
Banned
PhantomX1313
Member
Apparently Whedon was a gay preacher at that time
fair enough. Though Ripley was originally supposed to be a man from numerous sources, but looking around looks like that was an earlier draft then I thought.
Salty Rice
Member
Surely this is terrible to what we got but 10 years ago people would have eaten it up. Sounds always worse on script than its gonna be on film.
Also it is a never officially released draft. Give the man a break.
Also it is a never officially released draft. Give the man a break.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is the goods
He sure is something, yes.
I'm guessing the script he's talking about below is NOT Batgirl.
I'm thinking some creative license is being applied here (sorta like how Mark Waid went into a fugue state and started quailing & yelling out-of-body at Man of Steel) because the mental image of shirtless Joss Whedon heaving and sobbing over a screenplay in an empty restaurant is...
...it's somethin, alright.
Count Dookkake
Member
Fixed.
BKatastrophe
Member
The thing that throws me off about this is that, if I recall, the original film pitch from Joss was that it was going to take place during WW2.