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Wired: These Days It Makes More Sense For Batman To Be A Villain

New Elseworld book announced.

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Batman has been a hero for decades, constantly saving Gotham City from mad men and murderers. But take away the cape and noble purpose and he's actually a terror—someone capable of causing as much damage as he prevents. And seen through the lens of the 21st century, a time when it's understood that vigilante justice is dangerous, Bruce Wayne's actions don't look much more safe or sane than the Joker's. And in his next incarnation, they're not.

For Batman: White Knight, writer-illustrator Sean Murphy (The Wake, Punk Rock Jesus) created a version of Gotham with real, modern-day problems, and then let Batman solve them by making him the villain. How? In the comic mini-series' alternate-reality, it's the Joker—cured of his insanity—who sees that Bruce Wayne is just another part of the city's vicious cycle of crime and sets out to stop him.

"My main goal was to undo the comic tropes while changing Gotham from a comic book city into a real city—a city dealing with everything from Black Lives Matter to the growing wage gap," Murphy says. "[But] rather than write a comic about the wage gap, I gave those ideas to the Joker, who leads a kind of media war against Gotham's elite by winning people over with his potent observations and rhetoric."

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Despite the fact that their roles are reversed, having heroes and villains who exist as a response to the current political climate is very much on-brand for Batman. For nearly eight decades the Joker and Dark Knight have faced off in the comics and onscreen, and each time, whether they're brooding or cartoonish, they've come to represent the kind of good or bad guys their audience needs. In the 1940s, when the Joker was introduced in Batman #1, the idea of having a masked vigilante face-punching foes seemed like a good way to fight crime. But in the decades since, society has learned that's not always the best course of action. "It's sexy to think crime can be stopped with a fist, but the real solution is a lot more boring than that: education, increasing wages, and building trust," Murphy says. "The line Batman rides between 'noble vigilante' and 'overzealous oppressor' will always be shifting as our own society changes."

And much like the creators of history's various Batmen have changed him with the times, they've also updated the Joker to suit his environs. Over the years, he's been a sadistic psychopath and a giggling, greedy comedian depending on the story's—and the zeitgeist's—demands. That's been true in the comic books and onscreen. The original murderous conception of the character by Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson had to be toned when the Comics Code Authority was established in 1954, but in the 1970s the dark, murderous Joker came back. More recently, he's reflected the outlandishness of the 1980s thanks to Jack Nicholson's portrayal in Tim Burton's Batman, and the existential dread of the new millennium via Heath Ledger's performance in The Dark Knight.

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And Murphy's latest version, which will hit comic book stores Oct. 4, is just as apropos. At a time when protectors fail to protect and propaganda has immense power, very few stories—in comics, at least—could be more of-the-moment than a series that shows Batman's vigilantism as part of a vicious cycle and the Joker's charisma as a marketing tool for his brand of justice.

"We know the Joker is a genius, we know he's relentless, and we know he can play the crowd, so why not make him a politician?" Murphy asks. "Frank Miller modeled him after David Bowie. Chris Nolan showed him as a controlled sociopath. I see the Joker as Don Draper."

This sounds awesome. SGM has been teasing the book for around a year and his batmobile sketches have looked amazing.
 

Fury451

Banned
Do you even read comics?

Batman as a fascist is about as unique a concept as Superman turning evil or losing his powers. It's a fairly mundane view of the character, though something of a logical conclusion if Batman didn't have people yanking on his chain to keep him in line.

The observation that Batman is an insanely rich man with mental health issues punching the desperate and destitute in an illegal vigilante crusade is not a new one.

Nor is it really a correct view of who Batman is because him being one thin line away from the super villains he fights is a regular theme.
 
Batman as a fascist is about as unique a concept as Superman turning evil.

The observation that Batman is an insanely rich man with mental health issues punching the destitute and putting them in comas is not a new one.

Nor is it really a correct view of who Batman is.
But no one really took it this far. Everyone likes to think Superman can be easily corrupted but Batman is always gonna stick to his honor. Now we get to see Batman fall apart.
 
That art rules, god damn

I've seen too much modern hero comic art that's just unappealing to me (outside of covers), so that's pretty refreshing
 

Bronx-Man

Banned
People keep toying with the idea of Batman as fascist, but I can't think of a story where he's just the bad guy straight-up. That's why I'm excited for this.
 

Ross61

Member

Batman as a fascist is about as unique a concept as Superman turning evil or losing his powers. It's a fairly mundane view of the character, though something of a logical conclusion if Batman didn't have people yanking on his chain to keep him in line.

The observation that Batman is an insanely rich man with mental health issues punching the desperate and destitute in an illegal vigilante crusade is not a new one.

Nor is it really a correct view of who Batman is because him being one thin line away from the super villains he fights is a regular theme.
So just because it's not new...?????

What are we saying here. That is shouldn't be explore in a comic by a great artist/writer?
 

Fury451

Banned
But no one really took it this far. Everyone likes to think Superman can be easily corrupted but Batman is always gonna stick to his honor. Now we get to see Batman fall apart.

Amended my post with a few more details.

I didn't mean to imply I wasn't interested in reading the story, I am, it's just that it's fair to point that the observation itself really isn't all that fresh. Doesn't mean that it can't be engaging to see though.

So just because it's not new...?????

What are we saying here. That is shouldn't be explore in a comic by a great artist/writer?

No, you questioning whether somebody reads comics when they pointed out that this is not exactly a fresh take on the character is a bit judgmental.

I, Joker vaguely touched on this sort of idea almost 20 years ago
 
Ehhhhhhh hopefully this is good. The description in the OP just screams "Hey guys, what if the HERO were actually the VILLAIN (mind-blowing right?) and the JOKER were my PERSONAL POLITICAL MOUTHPIECE!?" Which certainly does not sell me.
 

Grizzlyjin

Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I'm not really sold on the pitch. The concept doesn't rustle my jimmies or anything, it just doesn't sound particularly interesting. Actually, I lied. The Joker being a media personality has potential. I'll keep my eye out
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
So all of a sudden Gotham doesn't have organized crime problems and a corrupt police force that is like old NYC on steroids?
 
If the thought of reading a story with a concept that has been done before bores you I don't know why you would even read super hero comics anymore anyway. So much of it is just concepts that have been done before recontextualized for the modern day. Hell, you could probably make that argument for most media that gets released.

Sean Murphy is a great artist and a good writer. A story doesn't have to be trailblazing and innovative to be interesting, thought provoking, or well made.
 

jph139

Member
Kind of cliche, but I will never begrudge someone pointing out how awful an idea Batman is.

And the art's nice.
 

Karkador

Banned
"We know the Joker is a genius, we know he's relentless, and we know he can play the crowd, so why not make him a politician?" Murphy asks. "Frank Miller modeled him after David Bowie. Chris Nolan showed him as a controlled sociopath. I see the Joker as Don Draper."

Yeah, who among us didn't first reach for Don Draper, the relentless, mad genius populist politician, in that analogy?
 

Trojita

Rapid Response Threadmaker
"We know Lex Luthor is a genius, we know he's relentless, and we know he can play the crowd, so why not make him a politician?"
 
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