-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Rare boss reiterates no old IP revival unless completely paradigm shifting idea
- Thread starter Salty Hippo
- Start date
When people say MS needs new IP, they mean they want something that is not Halo/Gears/Forza, something different.
Bits N Pieces
Member
Its a real shame that Rare are the only developer in the world who have been around for decades who have lost some of there original staff.
All these other devs are really lucky to all still have the same staff they've always had and never had anyone leave.
All these other devs are really lucky to all still have the same staff they've always had and never had anyone leave.
Yea, I primarily meant sequels. For the same reasoning, I wouldn't consider endless ports of Genesis games to every platform in existence (including Saturn and Dreamcast) since be a significant representation of classic Sega IP. Clearly the various remakes and ports haven't been counted by the fans as notable releases in either case.
Salty Hippo
Member
Uh, the guy who created Banjo, DKC and Viva Pinata is still at Rare as the main creative director so I have no idea what your point is. He even tweeted recently about which design approach would take if he ever did a new Banjo.
Boy Wander
Member
I find it weird how some people seem to want Rare to be trapped in some sort of time bubble churning out newer versions of games that were fit for their era but probably don't need revisiting.
Yooka-Laylee was a good game so... no.
The awesome Sea of Thieves alpha is proof that current Rare has just as much talent as the old days, just being applied in different ways.
daTRUballin
Member
Welp. There goes me hoping for any future old IP revivals from Rare. Huge fucking shame.
Oh well. Sea of Thieves better be good then. There's nothing wrong with Rare making new IPs, but there is something wrong with the idea that Rare can't return to any of their older franchises or that they should be a "new IP factory". I don't support this idea at all.
Also, I find it hilarious how some people are using Yooka-Laylee as "proof" that Banjo Threeie shouldn't be a thing. Because there can't ever be a 3D platformer/collectathon done right, right? It's the same dumb reasoning for not wanting a new 3D DK game because of DK64 which was released almost 20 fucking years ago.
Oh well. Sea of Thieves better be good then. There's nothing wrong with Rare making new IPs, but there is something wrong with the idea that Rare can't return to any of their older franchises or that they should be a "new IP factory". I don't support this idea at all.
Also, I find it hilarious how some people are using Yooka-Laylee as "proof" that Banjo Threeie shouldn't be a thing. Because there can't ever be a 3D platformer/collectathon done right, right? It's the same dumb reasoning for not wanting a new 3D DK game because of DK64 which was released almost 20 fucking years ago.
Renna Hazel
Member
The issue is the quality and output has reduced dramatically as those members left. It's be one thing if they were pumping out quality titles over the past decade, but they haven't. If the newer staff can make amazing titles, I'd be all for it. I think it's fair that fans are very critical at this point, Rare has a lot to prove.
Tbh, i'd have believed him if he said something like banjo of old has no place in the current market, but then crash badicoot happened and sold like gangbusters. So i'm not sure some of their older IP's really need some big change made to them to be viable.
I feel like if your goal is to be super creative, the genre that Banjo occupies has a lot of space for inventive gameplay and design. I don't think anyone wants a complete nostalgia ripoff, update and expand the game as needed just keep the basic element about exploration, adventure, platforming, and finding shit. Those are pretty malleable core tenants.
Regarding Yooka Laylee, the main sticking points against the game were mechanical(camera, controls), and the level design. That doesn't exactly strike as an indictment of the genre when the game was relatively well received nonetheless. Particularly considering it was a new development team working under significant budgetary restrictions.
Not that it matters, Rare hasn't made anything worthwhile since the early 360 days. Maybe Nintendo can get the IP back after MS shuts them down.
Regarding Yooka Laylee, the main sticking points against the game were mechanical(camera, controls), and the level design. That doesn't exactly strike as an indictment of the genre when the game was relatively well received nonetheless. Particularly considering it was a new development team working under significant budgetary restrictions.
Not that it matters, Rare hasn't made anything worthwhile since the early 360 days. Maybe Nintendo can get the IP back after MS shuts them down.
It shows zero loyalty to their fans.
"Hey buy this new game Sea of Theives, you're gonna love it!"
"We loved it, when's the sequel coming?"
"Sorry, that IP is dead now unless we can come up with a concept that is completely unrecognizable and may as well be a new IP. For now, please look forward to our next new IP that we hope you'll fall in love with."
"..."
Vital Tundra
Member
I wouldn't say they are less talented, but I doubt they can make platformers on the level of Banjo Kazooie and DKC1-3.
Thing is, Rare has done remakes and reboots. They remade Bad Fur Day as Live and Reloaded, and there were enhanced ports of Banjo games and Perfect Dark. They also had Rare Replay, that was a celebration of pretty much all their work. It's not like they don't have any data as to how their past titles likely perform for a modern audience. And there's a key difference. Crash and Ratchet were both PlayStation games that sold initially to a PlayStation audience, which didn't change with the remake/reboot. Rare's old games sold initially to a Nintendo audience, that they effectively no longer have access to. I'm actually very confident that games like Kameo, Viva Pinata and even Sea of Thieves would not be singled out from the rest of Rare's output had they been released on Nintendo platforms. Playing stuff like Jet Force Gemini in Rare Replay makes the idea that all those games were stone cold classics, and their later output subpar kinda laughable tbh.
Renna Hazel
Member
I don't think people have an issue with Kameo and Viva Pinata. If Rare were making those types of games again, I think a lot of people would be very happy. I know I would be.
LukasTaves
Member
It's also a lot better than the original games.
Though SoT is shaping up to be fantastic, they just need to deliver on the content.
This is sadly accurate.
I would be also. But when they actually made them, Rare was apparently "dead" and all the talent was elsewhere even then. Then Playtonic gets formed by people that worked on those games, and they're suddenly "the real Rare" again.
Renna Hazel
Member
Well yeah, some people were upset as soon as Rare was purchased by MS. Plenty of longtime fans still stuck by them however, and they put out some quality 360 games.
As for Playtonic, I think they have the potential to be what I want Rare to be. Yooka Laylee wasn't as good as I'd have liked, but I do like the direction the company is going in. Playtonic isn't good enough to be 'the real Rare' just yet, but they're doing better than Rare proper this generation. Yooka Laylee is more my kind of game than Kinect Sports 3.
It's also fair to keep in mind that Playtonic started out with around 12 people and a Kickstarter budget.
papercan55
Member
Makes complete sense to me.
They know that the company as it stands is purely successful thanks to their past employees and amazing games, they profit from their history(and rightly so).
They simply do not have the right people anymore to make another good banjo game, they are better off focusing on new ideas.
If the new stuff doesn't do well they will always have their old i.p hidden away to keep investors coming back.
They should wait until they are 100% certain they can make a good banjo game before doing so as another bad one would damage the i.p even further, and the tiny ray of hope that people still have that rare can turn themselves around would be shattered.
WordAssassin
Member
I miss Rare. I only ever bought Xbox consoles once Microsoft bought them to get Rare games. There were a few other games I had fun with, sure, but if Rare had say evaporated back when Nintendo sold them instead of being bought out, I don't think I ever would have bought my Xbox/360/One.
I've kind of accepted that they're gone, I have Rare Replay now so I'll be able to play everything I've loved from them all in one place, but it's such a disappointing bummer what happened to them, and how their husk continues to drag along. I have no interest in Sea of Thieves and other than that, as far as I'm aware they have nothing else. The last game they released that wasn't some Kinnect thing was Nuts & Bolts, which was nearly a decade ago. So in TEN YEARS they've managed to make a couple Kinnect minigame collections and a collection of ports of their old games. I'm thankful as fuck for Rare Replay but god damn that is absolutely abysmal from the company that made two Banjo games, GoldenEye, Diddy Kong Racing, Jet Force Gemini, Conker's Bad Fur Day, DK64, and a Mickey racing game all in one console generation.
I've kind of accepted that they're gone, I have Rare Replay now so I'll be able to play everything I've loved from them all in one place, but it's such a disappointing bummer what happened to them, and how their husk continues to drag along. I have no interest in Sea of Thieves and other than that, as far as I'm aware they have nothing else. The last game they released that wasn't some Kinnect thing was Nuts & Bolts, which was nearly a decade ago. So in TEN YEARS they've managed to make a couple Kinnect minigame collections and a collection of ports of their old games. I'm thankful as fuck for Rare Replay but god damn that is absolutely abysmal from the company that made two Banjo games, GoldenEye, Diddy Kong Racing, Jet Force Gemini, Conker's Bad Fur Day, DK64, and a Mickey racing game all in one console generation.
daTRUballin
Member
It's also funny how Rare's Xbox One output is so pathetically small compared to their 360 output. Talk shit about their 360 games all you want, but at least they were releasing games last gen. They released 8 games for the 360, and that's not even counting the Banjo and PD HD ports that were released by a different dev. They were pretty prolific last gen. Almost as prolific as their N64 era in fact (they released 11 N64 games, for reference).
Rare is just so disappointing this gen. I thought this would be a decent gen for them. Maybe even a return to form of sorts after hearing all the promising talk from Phil Spencer at the beginning. But nope. They didn't deliver.
They're in a much better place than their Kinect era (their website nowadays is better too), but the only things they have to show for themselves are a Kinect game, a compilation of old games, and Sea of Thieves (if it ever releases). And as someone else pointed out above, there's going to be a 10 year difference between SoT and the last non-Kinect game they've released (Nuts & Bolts). Ridiculous.
Rare is just so disappointing this gen. I thought this would be a decent gen for them. Maybe even a return to form of sorts after hearing all the promising talk from Phil Spencer at the beginning. But nope. They didn't deliver.
They're in a much better place than their Kinect era (their website nowadays is better too), but the only things they have to show for themselves are a Kinect game, a compilation of old games, and Sea of Thieves (if it ever releases). And as someone else pointed out above, there's going to be a 10 year difference between SoT and the last non-Kinect game they've released (Nuts & Bolts). Ridiculous.
Yeah, in a way it kind of reminds me of how Sonic games were doing. They'd release a new one and then scrap everything and start from scratch. And this happened with nearly every game for a while. They've kinda gotten into a groove now and kept the same formula from game to game, but creating a brand new gameplay style from game to game is jarring for the developers and the fans.
It's kind of happening here with Rare too since they go from one game to the next, having it be a completely different genre from the one they made last time, but with them taking 3-4 years to make one and involving the whole team, it makes their output way too far and few in between releases.
Funnily enough, didn't Rare Replay sell gangbusters too? I know it sold extremely well in the UK. I'm sure the price point helped but you can't deny all those people that bought the compilation. Clearly they do want more of what they've played.
Yea, I do take the fact that it's a small team on a couple million budget making the games... But that kinda highlights the reality of making games back in that era vs today. Such a team and budget could produce a Banjo back then, whereas you'd need a much larger team and commitment (and as a result sales) to pull off a Ratchet & Clank calibre game today. So put simply, when people talk about lack of old talent, it disregards just how much new talent is actually required to make a competing game today. There are countless old legends of the industry floating around still, and in the vast majority of cases, their involvement isn't translating into genre defining games of today.
Basically when people say "I wouldn't trust Rare of today" to make game X, the truth is I probably wouldn't trust Rare of 97 to make it either in today's environment.
Papacheeks
Banned
People leaving is a natural thing, happens everywhere. Thing is the ones that don't change as much need to be looked at at what they are doing that keep their people there, engaged, and excited in the projects they work on. What was the last game RARE made before SOT? Rare Replay?
A bunch of old games that some have been reworked or touched up? I just don't see MS greenlighting super expensive projects until sea of thieves since it's some kind of online GAAS type game.
They could be working on other things which they are according to some people, but with this news it makes me sad we may never see another perfect dark.
TheLegendOfCap
Member
I couldn't even get myself to finish the game lol
That game didn't spur any amount of excitement in me, as the first 2 games did.
Edit: Let Nintendo put Banjo-Kazooie and Banjo-Tooie on a hypothetical N64 Classic Edition and in Smash Bros and I'll be okay with no more traditional Banjo-Kazooie games.
LegendofLex
Member
This makes me sad, because no distinction is being made between "a new game built on a tried-and-tested gameplay foundation" and "a remake of an old game with more polish and better graphics."
What distinguishes the former from the latter is that it has new content that wasn't seen in the older games. It takes people to new worlds they haven't seen before, populated by new characters, with new music and artwork and sound and creative ideas. The latter is more like remasters (which I'd argue are healthy for the industry because there'll always be new blood that hasn't played old games), or games like New Super Mario Bros. that just keep remixing the same worlds over and over again (which, hey, no one is really asking for anyway).
I find it really strange that people aren't able to address existing demand with new creative content. It's almost like companies struggle to marry creativity and business even though that's literally the way video games became popular.
What distinguishes the former from the latter is that it has new content that wasn't seen in the older games. It takes people to new worlds they haven't seen before, populated by new characters, with new music and artwork and sound and creative ideas. The latter is more like remasters (which I'd argue are healthy for the industry because there'll always be new blood that hasn't played old games), or games like New Super Mario Bros. that just keep remixing the same worlds over and over again (which, hey, no one is really asking for anyway).
I find it really strange that people aren't able to address existing demand with new creative content. It's almost like companies struggle to marry creativity and business even though that's literally the way video games became popular.
Randomizer
Member
It's funny how people talked about the death of Rare during last generation. Even when they released some good/decent games last gen like Nuts n bolts, Viva Piñata, PDZ & Kameo.
Since they moved to Kinect development until now they have been limping around like a horse with a broken leg, just waiting to be shot. Sea of Pirates looks extremely boring to me, not getting the hype behind it at all. Reminds me of No Man's Sky hype on a smaller scale. We know how that turned out.
Since they moved to Kinect development until now they have been limping around like a horse with a broken leg, just waiting to be shot. Sea of Pirates looks extremely boring to me, not getting the hype behind it at all. Reminds me of No Man's Sky hype on a smaller scale. We know how that turned out.
ByWatterson
Member
A Destiny-style light MMO with the Jet Force Gemini property would be gangbusters.
Rare is not some magical company that "needs" their former team to make masterpieces again as if they were some soccer team that can't win the league without their goalkeeper.
There's enough talent over there to make great games and I'm 100% sure a new banjo is doable with the right budget and planning, but it turns out Ratchet and Crash are actually the outliers as user Nightingale once pointed out to me. Sony/Activision probably saw the numbers and decided to greenlit the projects, the same way MS saw the numbers and decided NOT to. The idea of Rare/MS Studios actively trying to fuck with our expectations and desires from that studio is ridiculous, honestly.
The fact is that Sea of Thieves is their current project and they're supposed to be getting some prototypes ready for their next games, which would be AAA new IP, something the Xbox needs as we all know. Now, obviously I want more Perfect Dark, Banjo, Conker or Battletoads, but they won't come from Rare themselves and that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, PD seems to be a perfect fit for The Coalition but obviously that's not going to happen.
There's enough talent over there to make great games and I'm 100% sure a new banjo is doable with the right budget and planning, but it turns out Ratchet and Crash are actually the outliers as user Nightingale once pointed out to me. Sony/Activision probably saw the numbers and decided to greenlit the projects, the same way MS saw the numbers and decided NOT to. The idea of Rare/MS Studios actively trying to fuck with our expectations and desires from that studio is ridiculous, honestly.
The fact is that Sea of Thieves is their current project and they're supposed to be getting some prototypes ready for their next games, which would be AAA new IP, something the Xbox needs as we all know. Now, obviously I want more Perfect Dark, Banjo, Conker or Battletoads, but they won't come from Rare themselves and that's not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, PD seems to be a perfect fit for The Coalition but obviously that's not going to happen.
Renna Hazel
Member
I'd agree with you if the new talent had done anything. Indie teams have much better output than Rare this generation. I'd also guess that the original Banjo team and budget for N64 was bigger than Yooka Laylee. I'd trust them to do better than current era Rare, since Playtonic is doing that already.
With that said, I'd love it if Playtonic turns into a successful studio that puts out quality games AND we get Rare making good games again. Combining their output is my best case scenario for getting old Rare back.
ScientificPizza
Banned
No one cares about JFG and putting that branding on a game like that would probably be to its detriment
Rare is right to do this imo, because its what theyve always done. They do one or two sequels and then bounce to the next thing. Id much rather see them try something new that theyre passionate about like Sea of Thieves than be a slave to Banjo for the rest of their existence
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
Banjo isn't on the same level as Crash.
No tears here then if Microsoft ever shuts down the studio. The legacy games are the only thing of value left and at least the heyday of Rare got a proper sendoff with Rare Replay.
I fucking loved their games on SNES and N64 but the studio died for me when they turned to Kinect.
I fucking loved their games on SNES and N64 but the studio died for me when they turned to Kinect.
You'd be god damn right
ScientificPizza
Banned
What a dickhead thing to say. Never hope that hundreds of people lose their jobs just because they arent making the specific game that you want
Randomizer
Member
It doesn't have the same nostalgia/appeal or sales figures for sure. But it is a much better game series.
Me no longer caring about the studio does not equal me wanting people out of jobs.
daTRUballin
Member
Go reread your own post. You said you wouldn't care if MS shut the studio down.
Poimandres
Member
It's interesting there were rumours floating around about a new Battletoads a few years back. They appeared in Killer Instinct, Shovel Knight then... Nothing. I wonder if there was a game in development that was cancelled?
Well, the new talent is currently making Sea of Thieves. There's been very little to judge Rare on so far this generation, because there's only been Kinect Sports and Rare Replay released so far. That's disappointing in and of itself, but it honestly says little about their ability to make good/great core games.
Indie teams have much better output than Playtonic also (assuming we limit consideration to the top end), and from my time with Yooka-Laylee and Sea of Thieves so far, I'd say Rare's doing better work right now. Playtonic is catering more directly to old Rare fans, but it's not as though YL is considered a very strong release critically. It's rated worse than everything Rare's created post-buyout besides Grabbed by the Ghoulies and Kinect Sport Rvials (and tied with the original Kinect Sports). People often lament that it took an external team to produce the new Killer Instinct, but in all honesty do you think that Rare at any point in time, could have created a better fighter than Double Helix and Iron Galaxy did?
Much of Rare's classic output has aged very poorly imo. Banjo pretty much stands as an exception (and one Playtonic failed to emulate whilst reading directly from the formula sheet). Both the team and their output seem very "time and place" in hindsight, but we expect them that retaining the same people would result in them all growing at the same rate as the rest of the industry. There are actually very few situations where this is the case.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
While this is heartbreaking to hear on its own, has there ever been anything said about letting another developer work on Rare IP's like with Killer Instinct?
To never receive a new Banjo is disappointing.
To never receive a new Banjo is disappointing.
Exactly. As someone who generally doesn't buy Mario games ever and has an irrational dislike for the IP, I'm actually interested in Odyssey despite myself, just because all the footage of it looks exactly like what I'd expect out of a BK game in 2017, but with the Mario IP substituted in. And people are off in other threads predicting it'll be their GOTY already.
Seems weird to me all these people saying that YL is proof that 3D platformers should stay in the 90s. I guess nobody told Nintendo. ¯\_(ツ
_/¯