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Wild Hearts - PS5/Xbox Series X/S and PC DF Tech Review - A Next-Gen Monster Hunter?
- Thread starter adamsapple
- Start date
GHG
Member
Well I did say that my expectation was that as the generation moves on some developers would end up neglecting the system...
But regardless you're now comparing apples to oranges, the video your referencing is a PC that also has 16GB of system ram. Overall the ram situation in the Series S is also not so straight forward:
Honestly I don't understand why people expect developers to have to give special treatment to the Series S. Moving to next gen systems only should make things easier for them from a technical perspective, not more difficult.
paulyboy81
Neo Member
Watched my brother struggling to lock this to 60fps on a 5800x/3070 rig the other day, with sustained drops into the mid 40's regardless of what settings or resolution he used.
I know you guys like to talk about fill rates, cache scrubbers and Cerny secret sauce, but this isn't a hardware issue (for the most part anyway), it's a time, money and prioritisation issue, with the Xbox & PC versions (or DX12 more specifically) once again getting the short shrift.
Although in this case the PS5 version isn't exactly great either, but that's like choosing which kneecap you'd prefer to be shot in.
I know you guys like to talk about fill rates, cache scrubbers and Cerny secret sauce, but this isn't a hardware issue (for the most part anyway), it's a time, money and prioritisation issue, with the Xbox & PC versions (or DX12 more specifically) once again getting the short shrift.
Although in this case the PS5 version isn't exactly great either, but that's like choosing which kneecap you'd prefer to be shot in.
Razvedka
Banned
ID and other developers being vindicated with time.Well I did say that my expectation was that as the generation moves on some developers would end up neglecting the system...
But regardless you're now comparing apples to oranges, the video your referencing is a PC that also has 16GB of system ram. Overall the ram situation in the Series S is also not so straight forward:
Honestly I don't understand why people expect developers to have to give special treatment to the Series S. Moving to next gen systems only should make things easier for them from a technical perspective, not more difficult.
The situation is what it is. We're going to see more of this, and not less. We can only hope that SX and PS5 versions are 'prioritized' and SS just continues to be a 'side consideration' and aggressively cut back and not hinder the other versions. It's a bit of wishful thinking though.
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thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
MS's best option, if it comes to that, would be to just remove the mandate for native Series S versions of all games. But that would come with a pretty big PR hit on them, at least initially.
You'd still get games with native Series S versions, but these would be among the lesser technically demanding.
I still question the logic behind not making the Series S a BC-centric machine for XBO games running at improved resolutions, and paired that with a digital-only Series X with less internal storage but able to sell at $399 and use those to replace the One S and One X, respectively, in pricing brackets while disc Series X itself being the $499 alternative.
We'd probably be seeing better sales for Xbox in general and none of the headaches we are seeing (most likely) due to complications with the Series S.
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MisterXDTV
Member
They sold the Series S as a next-gen system, now they have to live with it...
If they removed the mandate it would be the greatest SCAM in videogames history
01011001
Banned
the PC uses only 8GB of System memory, that is game + windows + capture software+ overlay + launcher etc.
this means 12gb of RAM is used when we combine the VRAM usage and the system memory used.
on idle my PC usually uses about 2.5GB for Windows alone, and a lot more for other things.
so you can assume that the game uses way less than 10GB of memory on total in this video. and the S specifically has 8GB of fast ram and only 2GB slower ram.
if you actually are trying to tell me that this game needs more than 10GB of memory to run at 1080p Medium you're out of your mind.
and the 2GB of slower ram, which is still faster than DDR4, also can't have any overly negative influence on this game
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OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
The "little beast" indeed
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Its not just this gen. Here is kinda how it goes.
We see or hear that new consoles or hardware is coming out and we get excited with the whole TFs and whatever the fuck else.
That is our fallacy.
If you give a dev a 50TF console, they would somehow, someway, find a way to make a 1080p game that runs like ass.
No matter how much power you throw at the problem, there is no getting around uninspired/bad/swamped, or just untalented devs.
Removing Series S versions wouldn’t just result in a PR hit but a class action lawsuit. They promised a system that could run ALL next-gen content and it’s especially damning when the versions reside within the same download file. Imagine downloading a game and receiving an error that it’s incompatible with your Series S but runs fine on a Series X? The mandate isn’t even a mandate it’s a requirement.
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I'm actually shocked how much these consoles are really 1080p machines.
I really thought they would hit 1440p at 60fps in nearly all games.
Kinda bab tbh
I really thought they would hit 1440p at 60fps in nearly all games.
Kinda bab tbh
Hoddi
Member
I downloaded the trial and the app allocation is 6-7GB of VRAM at 4k maxed on my 2080 Ti. 1080p standard uses about half of that.
It's basically nothing.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
You can knock Halo Infinite in terms of content, but that game does not belong on that list lol. It has 120fps support even on Series S and runs DRS 4K/60 on SX.
Talkin Hawkin
Banned
Summary is the game is fugly, but the PS5 version can be made less fugly with a patch, but the XSX version is just flat out broke and the XSS is best avoided?
A faster CPU a better GPU and 3 more TF yet the X can't keep parity with the weaker machine, let alone beat it? What is going on?
A faster CPU a better GPU and 3 more TF yet the X can't keep parity with the weaker machine, let alone beat it? What is going on?
Lysandros
Member
Here we go...
Talkin Hawkin
Banned
It's a genuine gaming question on a gaming forum. When was the last time a more powerful machine was destroyed in performance by the 'weaker' machine? I would say 360 and ps3 but the 360 wasn't that much weaker than the PS3.
Saturn vs N64? Saturn Vs Ps1?
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Hats off toadamsapple for posting a DF tech review that isn't in favor of the Xbox and didn't "conveniently" exclude some details in the summary for the first time
Both of these statements can be, and are, true at the same time.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
These consoles are NOT 1080p machines.
Come on, let's not bury our heads in the sand here.
I don't get how anyone can say this,or why this is so hard to figure out.
So you really think that console that could run Horizon at 1440p@60fps+ could not run this crap-looking game at that similar spec?
These consoles being more powerful doesn't mean that we suddenly get everything we wanted, honesty to me I think it means most devs won't just bother putting in the effort. Cause now they can get away with doing the least amount of work.
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Razvedka
Banned
Last I remember reading the PS5's CPU in practice was actually better despite the clock. I forget the particulars on that one though. More offloading of tasks to dedicated silicon, cache scrubbers. It was along those lines.
SX has a wider slower GPU, so in most conventional cases it will be faster. Others it won't.
Altogether the hardware between the two is pretty close. So meaningful differences are likely down to API/Devkits and developer priority. In this case it may well be that last one.
But I'm not a dev. Caveat Emptor.
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Topher
Gold Member
Taking sarcastic jabs at the guy is unnecessary, imo.
rickybooby87
Member
This game looks like absolute fecal matter.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Truth is that this is getting old. There is a reason why Nvidia and AMD don't talk about TFs anymore. And MS now knows why too. It's easy to scream TFs when talking to the layman because that gives them a number that they can say this is bigger than that one so its better.
But not all TFs are the same. And in truth, TFs is really just a measure of (theoretical one at that) just one part of like 5 parts in a GPUs render pipeline.
Topher
Gold Member
2 more teraflops. Not 3. But the difference is proving to be largely negligible and we are seeing that in the games.
01011001
Banned
indeed. which means there's zero excuse for it to look like it does on Series S.
it's purely due to neglect.
solidus12
Member
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Lysandros
Member
Make it 1.87 TF (12.15–10.28=1.87). The differencial in our most favorite GPU metric should be properly respected thus presented in razor sharp accuracy.
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solidus12
Member
My bad, thought the difference was 8 TF
Talkin Hawkin
Banned
I thought the Ps5 was a 9tf machine that was overclocked at the last minute as a panic reaction by Cerny to match the power of the XSX?
I'm just joking. I know the PS5 is a 10+tf machine. Nothing wrong with a bit of humor
In Cold Blood
Banned
The way devs are releasing games unfinished is pathetic. They release the game and then expect players to wait for a patch a number of weeks down the line to try and fix some of the issues.
Topher
Gold Member
I hear ya. The narratives regarding the power of these consoles leading up to launch were bizarre to say the least. I'd say, so far, XSX GPU advantage has been overhyped as has PS5's SSD advantage. These consoles are more alike than different.
Lysandros
Member
No that's the whole compute power of Alex' custom PS5.My bad, thought the difference was 8 TF
Arioco
Member
The explanation is very simple.
*If it runs better on PS5
1. Lazy Devs
2. The TOOLZ for Xbox aren’t ready
3. Sony paid off the devs or marketing deal
4. Sony dev teams helped
*If it runs better on Xbox
1. Proof of the huge power delta and it's only going to get bigger. Period
It's not that hard to understand, right?
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Lysandros
Member
You forgot about "Japanese developers being nationalistic ..stards."The explanation is very simple.
*If it runs better on PS5
1. Lazy Devs
2. The tools for Xbox aren’t ready
3. Sony paid off the devs or marketing deal 4. Sony dev teams helped
*If it runs better on Xbox
1. Proof of the power delta and it's only going to get bigger
Period.
Topher
Gold Member
The explanation is very simple.
*If it runs better on PS5
1. Lazy Devs
2. The tools for Xbox aren’t ready
3. Sony paid off the devs or marketing deal 4. Sony dev teams helped
*If it runs better on Xbox
1. Proof of the power delta and it's only going to get bigger
Period.
The marketing deals dictating the performance is a recent one from what I've seen. Probably one of the more laughable reasons given for a disparity in performance.
I do think devs have some responsibility here but it is obvious some are being selective when playing the "lazy devs" card. The vast majority of games perform largely the same between PS5 and XSX. When a game shows a distinct performance difference then I think it is safe to say the struggling version didn't get enough optimization, regardless of which console we are talking about.
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balls of snow
Member
Shame because the game looks fun.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I disagree. Tbh I wouldn't fault a dev for taking this sentiment as an insult. At the start of the current generation developers have told us straight up that raw specs are not indicative of actual results. I like DF, but I am often disappointed in their ill-informed coverage. Virtually every time PS5 outperforms XSX, their reaction is almost always "Huh, that is so weird. We know the Xbox has a more powerful GPU so this shouldn't be happening". It's such an elementary analysis, and particularly inexcusable from a tech-centric outlet. This happened yet again in this week's DF Direct, although John did come around to say that developers have told him they prefer PS5 API. They do a disservice to their audience. It's as if they want to avoid any potential conflict with certain companies. I can appreciate trying to manage this difficult balancing act for business relations, but it should NEVER get in the way of your primary objective, which is to inform and educate their audience in an objective manner. Conversely, folks such as
NXGamer
have done a phenomenal job reiterating what Cerny and other objective developers have been trying to communicate - performance for all platforms is based on the sum of their parts, not on any one specific metric or hardware piece. GPU/CPU/Memory/API/ etc. all contribute to actual performance and there are enough variances between the two premier consoles to have differences that can't be explained just by looking at theoretical GPU compute; such cases, which are pretty common at this point, are the perfect opportunity for outlets like DF to EDUCATE. Instead, they choose to perpetuate their audience's ignorance on the subject.
Topher
Gold Member
I disagree. Tbh I wouldn't fault a dev for taking this sentiment as an insult. At the start of the current generation developers have told us straight up that raw specs are not indicative of actual results. I like DF, but I am often disappointed in their ill-informed coverage. Virtually every time PS5 outperforms XSX, their reaction is almost always "Huh, that is so weird. We know the Xbox has a more powerful GPU so this shouldn't be happening". It's such an elementary analysis, and particularly inexcusable from a tech-centric outlet. This happened yet again in this week's DF Direct, although John did come around to say that developers have told him they prefer PS5 API. They do a disservice to their audience. It's as if they want to avoid any potential conflict with certain companies. I can appreciate trying to manage this difficult balancing act for business relations, but it should NEVER get in the way of your primary objective, which is to inform and educate their audience in an objective manner. Conversely, folks such as
Ok….but I’m not sure how that relates to what I said. I’m talking about forum responses, not DF. I’m also referring to games with significant differences in performance between PS5 and XSX.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
I don't think the PS5 SSD has been or was ever overhyped. I mean, its doing exactly what they said it would do. And when used right, you can see games with as little as 3 seconds load times.
The issue with the SSD, and if used to its best, its that being twice as fast as that in the Xbox, while sounding great on paper, doesn't really mean shit when you consider you are talking about 3 seconds vs 5/6 seconds.
Topher
Gold Member
The hype wasn't about load times.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19580233/sony_ps5_logo.jpg){kind=logo}
Sony says the PlayStation 5’s SSD will completely change next-gen level design
With no load times, developers can do much more.
www.theverge.com
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Again I will counter, that that is not false either. The tech is there to do it, and it has improved how devs actually buy their games.
That devs have not actually used the tech to its potential, isn't the tech's fault. I would think that right now its mostly used as a way to just make mapping out levels easier by the devs during development. Stuff that would be mostly invisible to us but integral to devs.
Topher
Gold Member
I'm not saying anything is "false". But there has been little difference in practice compared to XSX, which was my original point.
Loxus
Member
It's not all about loading though, streaming plays a big part of way It's twice as fast.
"So when I talked about the dream of an SSD part of the reason for that 5 gigabytes a second target was to eliminate loads, but also part of the reason for that target was streaming. As in what if the SSD is so fast that as the player is turning around, it's possible to load textures for everything behind the player in that split second.
If you figure that it takes half a second to turn that's 4GB of compressed data you can load, that sounds about right for next gen."
I wouldn't go into details, but there's lots of gameplay mechanics that is now possible with those kind of speeds.
Umbasaborne
Banned
Simple, these were not going to remain sixty fps machines as we begin to leave the last generation behind. Games look better and are bigger than ever before, but that comes at a cost, one that the ps5 and series x wont be able to pay at 60 fps. Honestly its fine with me, ive seen consoles as 30fps machines primarily since the 360 days
FoxMcChief
Gold Member
So I was right to not even bother with the Trial of this game. Cool.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Then refer to my OP on that matter cause I addressed that.
Its not like the XSX doesn't have an SSD. At best, optimally, the PS5 does have an SSD and IO architecture that would mean two things compared to the XSX.
- It IS twice as fast. and
- It can hit its technical thresholds while having less of an impact on the CPU than the XSX would.
However, there are two issues with that. Games just don't need to move that much data and two, even in the rare cases that a massive load needs to be done, you are only looking at a 2x difference. If the XSX IO path had it finishing loads in like 30 seconds vs 3 seconds on the PS5, then that would be a big deal, As it stands, we are talking about 6-7 seconds vs 3-4 seconds.
However, again... that PS5 SSD speeds would ultimately mean more for devs than for us, it just adds to a list of things that makes the PS5 easier to build on. Eg, just off the top of my head, you can free up more space in RAM by having a smaller asset cache when you know you can pull data in from the SSD faster. That means on the PS5 devs would have even more RAM to work with, which win turn help with how they load in their levels or assets and how much optimization they need to do to get certain things to fit in RAM...etc.
I know...
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
I see a little bit of something about these two consoles. i just listen to supposedly experts talk about about them. but i was not paying attention:
time: 9:28.
time: 9:28.