Support NeoGAF

[nasos_333]

Of course it's about what you define crazy low power. I though the Wii was crazy low power for example. A 0.7 TFLOPs console would definitely have a noticeable leap over the 360, considering not only the tripling of raw computing power but also
And why is that? Last I checked the only available rumours had the next Xbox pegged had a SoC or a discrete chip based on an HD6670 and the Wii U at HD4830 (which is more powerful). Now you may not believe that (and I too think it's very likely the next Xbox 3 is more powerful), but based on actual evidence at this time it actually is a scenario that may happen. I'm sorry for trying to reason with actual evidence instead of "how it should be done" or "how it turned out last generations" (both of which are invalid), but these rumours are the only thing we have to go by at this point.

First of all, the rumor about 720 was about the early dev kits, not the final 720 hardware of course

I am sure that not even AMD will know the final design until late in 2012 or maybe a bit into 2013 and if 720 does release in 2013 holiday

And somehow IGN know the exact spec of the final hardware ?

And all that considering the rumor has some truth in it, which is also doubtfull

Sure many scenarios may happen, but the most probable is 720 beeing considerably more powerfull than WiiU, even much more powerfull depending on pricing and what will include in the package

Keep in mind WiiU is confirmed to pack a screen for every system, that is a huge additional cost, if MS does not have such a thing in the pack, can definatly afford some much better hardware for the same price and considering the year later release

 

[DCKing]

the most probable is 720 beeing considerably more powerfull than WiiU

How is this not based on:

• what you want
• what has happened before
• what Microsoft should do

instead of actual evidence? Let me say it once more: I do think the next Xbox will be somewhat more powerful. But my reasons for that aren't based on any of those because I know that none of these are relevant at all when making a console.

 

[Pachterballs]

so based off those stats, and the rumours that nextX is 10x x360, we will at the very least get samaritan graphics next gen? I can live with that.

 

[nasos_333]

How is this not based on:

• what you want
• what has happened before
• what Microsoft should do

instead of actual evidence? Let me say it once more: I do think the next Xbox will be somewhat more powerful. But my reasons for that aren't based on any of those because I know that none of these are relevant at all when making a console.

Actually no, it is not based on what i want, or only on what has happened before

It is just common sense that coming a year later and not having a huge screen in the pack, that they can afford to have far better hardware if we assume they have about same pricing

And frankly the history of a system does matter, it is not like Gears 4 can look nothing much above Gears 3 or worst than WiiU games and noone notice

Of course all those assume a holiday 2013 release, which is not even a certain thing at all yet and could easilly be pushed to 2014 or whatever

 

[Durante]

I think that expecting anything less than 1.5 TFLOPs (on the GPU) for either "720" or PS4 is shooting too low, if they release around the end of 2013 at the earliest.

As for comparing it to PC, of course even if 720 is a bit more beefy than a 2013 PC, it will still be surpassed in months

Well, here's one thing I can agree with DCKing on: none of the next-gen consoles will remotely be as "beefy" as a 2013 PC. It's not physically possible unless they are twice the size of a launch PS3.

 

[DCKing]

It is just common sense that coming a year later and not having a huge screen in the pack, that they can afford to have far better hardware if we assume they have about same pricing

In other words "Microsoft should release a more powerful console if they are launching later than Nintendo"? "Microsoft should be able to put more money in graphics without a tablet"? (Ignoring the rumours of the Xbox tablet and/or the likelihood of a Kinect 2 pack-in)

Let there be no mistake: I agree that they should. But the SoC and HD6670 rumours say something else is happening. Let's hope better news/rumours will come soon.

 

[nasos_333]

In other words "Microsoft should release a more powerful console if they are launching later than Nintendo"? "Microsoft should be able to put more money in graphics without a tablet"? (Ignoring the rumours of the Xbox tablet and/or the likelihood of a Kinect 2 pack-in)

Let there be no mistake: I agree that they should. But the SoC and HD6670 rumours say otherwise. Let's hope better news/rumours will come soon.

No, it is more like "would" than "should"

I think that expecting anything less than 1.5 TFLOPs (on the GPU) for either "720" or PS4 is shooting too low, if they release around the end of 2013 at the earliest.

Well, here's one thing I can agree with DCKing on: none of the next-gen consoles will remotely be as "beefy" as a 2013 PC. It's not physically possible unless they are twice the size of a launch PS3.

But consoles dont use off the shelf PC parts, so you cant estimate the size by looking at PC parts size

You dont need a separate fan for GPU and CPU in a console, just a heat path towards one fan array for example

The system would probably be more noisy than big imo

360 for example was definalty as beefy as a top 2005 PC and frankly probably surpassed it too looking at Gears 3, Witcher 2 and Crysis 1-2

 

[maniac-kun]

I think epic allready confirmed that the Samarithan demo can run on next-gen because they got Unreal Engine 4.0 (which should be even more impressive) running on it and Samarithan is just Unreal Engine 3.5.

 

[blu]

I believe it was running at a resolution of 2560x1440 as well.

Which explains why the demo, as shown on the floor, could not have run on anything less than 3x 580s.

2560x1440x30x40000 FLOPs = 4423680000000 FLOPs, aka 4.4TFLOPs.

 

[DCKing]

No, it is more like "would" than "should"

Filling in different words does not make the argument valid?

Expectations do not dictate reality. Releasing later does not automatically make graphics better - it's the result of both advancing technology (which has slowed down) and business decisions (which are likely to be different). Therefore, this isn't an assumption you can make. Evidence at this point seem to indicate it isn't happening (yet).

But consoles dont use off the shelf PC parts, so you cant estimate the size by looking at PC parts size

Although console chips' design is different they don't use different technology at all. PC chips are a good indication of die size and power usage in console chips, even though they are not the exact same thing.

 

[dragonelite]

I want 1080p@60fps if not i wont upgrade unless i need halo 5 and 6..
Or friend pressure.

 

[nasos_333]

Filling in different words does not make the argument valid?

Expectations do not dictate reality. Releasing later does not automatically make graphics better - it's the result of both advancing technology (which has slowed down) and business decisions (which are likely to be different). Therefore, this isn't an assumption you can make. Evidence at this point seem to indicate it isn't happening (yet).
Although console chips' design is different they don't use different technology at all. PC chips are a good indication of die size and power usage in console chips, even though they are not the exact same thing.

What is the evidence you speak of ?

Rumors about the early 720 dev kits is not exactly evidence of anything

It is easilly an assumption i can make, because is the most probable, why make any other assumption

I would like to see where you base your own assumtpion, then we could discuss it further

 

[Raide]

I want 1080p@60fps if not i wont upgrade unless i need halo 5 and 6..
Or friend pressure.

A stable 1080p@60fps would be ideal for the next Xbox/PS4. Any more than that seems like a waste of resources. With the majority of console gamers still having 720p/1080p TV's, trying to push over that boundary seems pointless. Its not like 4k sets are going to be appearing in most homes in the next 10 years or so.

 

[DCKing]

Rumors about the early 720 dev kits is not exactly evidence of anything

Of course it is. It's a first indication of what Microsoft is targeting. Microsoft is not going to put in a 480SPU chip and later end up with 3 times as much (especially if that same tech is already available right now) If the rumours said the thing would have a Radeon HD6970 people would have eaten that shit up.

The rumours are about the tape out of next Xbox chips at IBM, which were SoCs, and IGN's early devkit rumour. Although you can discuss on and on about whether true or not, these rumours appear somewhat reliable and are the only thing we can go by now.

 

[Postman]

What if MS wants to pack in a kinect 2?

 

[nasos_333]

Of course it is. It's a first indication of what Microsoft is targeting. Microsoft is not going to put in a 480SPU chip and later end up with 3 times as much (especially if that same tech is already available right now) If the rumours said the thing would have a Radeon HD6970 people would have eaten that shit up.

The rumours are about the tape out of next Xbox chips at IBM, which were SoCs, and IGN's early devkit rumour. Although you can discuss on and on about whether true or not, these rumours appear somewhat reliable and are the only thing we can go by now.

I see, but there were far more rumors than that, like a 7000 series card rumor etc

Why did you pick up the lowest end rumor as the true indication

Also how much better Xenos was comparing to the early 9800pro dev kits ?

And a rumor can be totally fake or false, so how is it a better indication than actual console history

 

[Hiro_Kunimi_80]

What if MS wants to pack in a kinect 2?

the same as pack in a " tablet pad "

or a "Blu ray drive " in 2005

 

[AngryMoth]

I've never really understood people who expect next-gen too be doing 1080p 60fps for all games. Its possible to achieve that on current gen consoles (see Wipeout HD), but devs would rather prioritise image quality and putting more stuff on screen etc, and I don't understand why those priorities would change in the next gen. If it takes x10 360's to run Samaritan at 1080p vs x4 to run at 720p, imagine how good something might look at 720p with x10 360s.

 

[nasos_333]

the same as pack in a " tablet pad "

or a "Blu ray drive " in 2005

I doubt would be nealry as expensive as those TBH

I've never really understood people who expect next-gen too be doing 1080p 60fps for all games. Its possible to achieve that on current gen consoles (see Wipeout HD), but devs would rather prioritise image quality and putting more stuff on screen etc, and I don't understand why those priorities would change in the next gen. If it takes x10 360's to run Samaritan at 1080p vs x4 to run at 720p, imagine how good something might look at 720p with x10 360s.

I am one of those that expect only extremy few games to do more than 720p and 30fps next gen, why have 1080p and 60fps that make a 10% difference when you actually look for it and not increase 4x the image quality in 720p that everyone will notice from the first second and make 1000% difference

makes no sense to go for 1080p and/or 60fps at all, maybe a few games will use it, but will not match up to 720p ones with top rendering and detail

 

[DCKing]

I see, but there were far more rumors than that, like a 7000 series card rumor etc

Why did you pick up the lowest end rumor as the true indication

The SoC rumour I mention actually was the one talking about a 7000 series chip. Being part of the 6000 or 7000 series tells us very little by itself, but it being part of a SoC does mean that it can't be a huge very powerful chip. The only rumour I consider very doubtful is the earliest one, which spoke about there being two GPUs (but not a stellar system in other aspects).

Also how much better Xenos was comparing to the early 9800pro dev kits ?

Chips equivalent to Xenos did not exist in 2004. Chips equivalent to what will be in the next Xbox exist now. There is no need to have developers starting on a GPU that is much less powerful than what is envisioned in the final product if the chips are there already.

 

[itsgreen]

A stable 1080p@60fps would be ideal for the next Xbox/PS4. Any more than that seems like a waste of resources. With the majority of console gamers still having 720p/1080p TV's, trying to push over that boundary seems pointless. Its not like 4k sets are going to be appearing in most homes in the next 10 years or so.

Demanding 1080p/60hz, because you want 1080p 60hz is a stupid thing to do. It doesn't make sense.

You can already have 1080p/60hz on 360. But in order to do that everything has to be less detailed.

This will most likely be also true for 720/PS4. Everything can be 1080p/60hz if they have to, but sacrifices will have to made in terms of fidelity/details. Most likely a game will look better 1080p/30hz or 720p/60 or somewhere in the middle. So it doesn't make sense to demand 1080p/60. And most of the time developer will choose to make it more pretty than to go for 1080p/60.

 

[-SD-]

Took a pic from the 720p stream and removed the GameSpot logo.

 

[Raide]

I've never really understood people who expect next-gen too be doing 1080p 60fps for all games. Its possible to achieve that on current gen consoles (see Wipeout HD), but devs would rather prioritise image quality and putting more stuff on screen etc, and I don't understand why those priorities would change in the next gen. If it takes x10 360's to run Samaritan at 1080p vs x4 to run at 720p, imagine how good something might look at 720p with x10 360s.

So console gaming can keep a closer parity with PC gaming.

Spoiler

My numbers are bigger than your numbers.

Also, native 1080p@60fps should be a mark the majority of devs could hit if the specs are sufficient.

Demanding 1080p/60hz, because you want 1080p 60hz is a stupid thing to do. It doesn't make sense.

You can already have 1080p/60hz on 360. But in order to do that everything has to be less detailed.

This will most likely be also true for 720/PS4. Everything can be 1080p/60hz if they have to, but sacrifices will have to made in terms of fidelity/details. Most likely a game will look better 1080p/30hz or 720p/60 or somewhere in the middle. So it doesn't make sense to demand 1080p/60. And most of the time developer will choose to make it more pretty than to go for 1080p/60.

If developers cannot push it, then don't bother bringing out 720/PS4 just so you can play it safe with 720p games. If they have to sacrifice to maintain a nice looking 720p, it seems a waste of a next-gen cycle. I am sure the big developers like Epic etc will be making sure they show off 1080p but do we really want developers like EA/Activision barely making 720p, just so they can throw in more screen jam, OOT explosions etc?

If the specs are good, there is no reason why developers cannot hit 1080p@60fps with no screen-tearing and keep up all teh detail but that really does end up with MS and Sony.

 

[GABDEG]

The reason why Samaritan needs loads of horsepower and doesn't look that revolutionary is cause it uses current tech and algorithms. Just look at last gen. There was no deferred rendering, no screen-space rendering tricks like ambient occlusion or global illumination & such. All of that came after the release of the consoles with the research from gfx people.

So I'm fairly certain that next-gen we'll see Samaritan-like graphics and beyond.

 

[infinityBCRT]

The reason why Samaritan needs loads of horsepower and doesn't look that revolutionary is cause it uses current tech and algorithms. Just look at last gen. There was no deferred rendering, no screen-space rendering tricks like ambient occlusion or global illumination & such. All of that came after the release of the consoles with the research from gfx people.

So I'm fairly certain that next-gen we'll see Samaritan-like graphics and beyond.

Also IMO the art style in Samaritan isn't the greatest. Give that power to Naughty Dog and I'm sure they'll blow everyone away.

 

[DefectiveReject]

I'm not one to say this but WTF at the juniors in this thread.

3bn profit....?
They made jack and what they are starting to make now is nothing compared to what thy spent.
and you want them to make something even more beefier than before especially after the Wii demonstrated to everyone that just enough gets you by.....



Oh and what 3rd party is going to develop a Samaritan without a $50-70m budget.

 

[Raide]

Also IMO the art style in Samaritan isn't the greatest. Give that power to Naughty Dog and I'm sure they'll blow everyone away.

Yes but its just a tech demo. Seeing it actually used in a game is a whole different thing. There is no indication Samaritan will end up being a game but it could be a damn cool one if they actually make something out of it.

 

[SapientWolf]

Filling in different words does not make the argument valid?

Expectations do not dictate reality. Releasing later does not automatically make graphics better - it's the result of both advancing technology (which has slowed down) and business decisions (which are likely to be different). Therefore, this isn't an assumption you can make. Evidence at this point seem to indicate it isn't happening (yet).
Although console chips' design is different they don't use different technology at all. PC chips are a good indication of die size and power usage in console chips, even though they are not the exact same thing.

Rumors aren't evidence. Everyone is free to assume what they want. I'll assume that MS isn't stupid enough to release a traditional console that only offers an incremental performance upgrade over the 360.

 

[Always-honest]

ugh, no. vfx maybe but dropping resolution to gain some aa and framerate, never.

720p af 60fps with smooth edges would be great..... Why rather have 1080p if it runs and looks like shit?

 

[bigtroyjon]

Of course it is. It's a first indication of what Microsoft is targeting. Microsoft is not going to put in a 480SPU chip and later end up with 3 times as much (especially if that same tech is already available right now) If the rumours said the thing would have a Radeon HD6970 people would have eaten that shit up.

The rumours are about the tape out of next Xbox chips at IBM, which were SoCs, and IGN's early devkit rumour. Although you can discuss on and on about whether true or not, these rumours appear somewhat reliable and are the only thing we can go by now.

There have also been rumors about the WiiU being less powerful than what you suggest which is my point. You can't seriously believe that the lowest possible specs for the WiiU could end up being more powerful than the xbox3 despite the fact that it will include a tablet and Nintendo already promised to show a profit next FY.

I'm not saying it's impossible for it to be more powerful than the xbox3 but it is impossible that the WiiU coming in at the lowest possible specs ends up being more powerful than an xbox 3 releasing later.

 

[Angelus Errare]

720p af 60fps with smooth edges would be great..... Why rather have 1080p if it runs and looks like shit?

Doesn't really matter, the people thinking that next gen is going to be 1080p60fps standard are going to be disappointed as fuck. If MS and Sony don't mandate it, it won't be a standard and you'll see many games at 720p easily.

 

[thuway]

I am guessing if next-gen goes the way I want it too-

Sony- Samaritan 1080p all bells and whistles
Microsoft- Samaritan modified 1080p (1280 X 1080p) all bells and whistles, or 1080p less AA
Wii U- Samaritan 720p all bells and whistles

Sounds about right?

 

[Postman]

Doesn't really matter, the people thinking that next gen is going to be 1080p60fps standard are going to be disappointed as fuck. If MS and Sony don't mandate it, it won't be a standard and you'll see many games at 720p easily.

Of course you will because devs can push a lot more at 720p than at 1080p. At least we should get 720p standard next gen.

 

[kfpkiller]

And why is that? Last I checked the only available rumours had the next Xbox pegged had a SoC or a discrete chip based on an HD6670 and the Wii U at HD4830 (which is more powerful)

The only available rumours are the ones you want to believe?
You just picked the best one for wii u and the worst one for xbox3.

 

[Phonomezer]

I am guessing if next-gen goes the way I want it too-

Sony- Samaritan 1080p all bells and whistles
Microsoft- Samaritan modified 1080p (1280 X 1080p) all bells and whistles, or 1080p less AA
Wii U- Samaritan 720p all bells and whistles

Sounds about right?

Let me go and consult the crystal ball...

:/

 

[Maxrunner]

The only available rumours are the ones you want to believe?
You just picked the best one for wii u and the worst one for xbox3.

Exactly and most here refuse to believe MS for some reason wont release a more modest designed console....

 

[Chaplain]

I checked out the Samaritan demo. The graphical jump will be more than enough of a jump for next gen, but only if they do not have to sacrifice physics and AI. Games next gen must have that type of visual fidelity but with dozens and dozens of enemy npcs on screen. I do not want the same number of enemies (6 to 12 enemies) on screen that we have been getting from all of the higher end console games the past 6 years.

 

[Postman]

I checked out the Samaritan demo. The graphical jump will be more than enough of a jump for next gen, but only if they do not have to sacrifice physics and AI. Games next gen must have that type of visual fidelity but with dozens and dozens of enemy npcs on screen. I do not want the same number of enemies (6 to 12 enemies) on screen that we have been getting from all of the higher end console games the past 6 years.

numbers of characters on screen is relative. You can hundreds of characters onscreen now days if you wanted. There is no set number.

 

[gcubed]

720p af 60fps with smooth edges would be great..... Why rather have 1080p if it runs and looks like shit?

i'd rather have 720p 60fps ... if you are going to jump to 1080p, i want it LOCKED at 30fps at the minimum

i have a feeling we are going to do the same exact dance next gen as we did this gen. 1080p hacks with shit / unstable performance just to be in the cool kid crowd of 1080p

 

[Chaplain]

numbers of characters on screen is relative. You can hundreds of characters onscreen now days if you wanted. There is no set number.

There is always a set amount of vertex sets on screen that a game engine can push without the game dipping below 30fps. Then add split screen and the visual fidelity of the game is sacrificed in order to maintain 30fps. This is what I meant by my comment above.

 

[zoukka]

I checked out the Samaritan demo. The graphical jump will be more than enough of a jump for next gen, but only if they do not have to sacrifice physics and AI. Games next gen must have that type of visual fidelity but with dozens and dozens of enemy npcs on screen. I do not want the same number of enemies (6 to 12 enemies) on screen that we have been getting from all of the higher end console games the past 6 years.

The amount of enemies is depending on game design, not hardware limitations. It's quite a challenge to create meaningful encounters in action games if you have +10 enemies on screen and still keep everything clear and readable.

 

[gofreak]

Someone should make a 600x400@25fps game with Samaritan graphics on current consoles for a larf, then.

 

[AlStrong]

Someone should make a 600x400@25fps game with Samaritan graphics on current consoles for a larf, then.

That could have happened if the next round of consoles started at the end of 2014. Oh well! Thank WiiU that we won't ever see such a game.

 

[zoukka]

Someone should make a 600x400@25fps game with Samaritan graphics on current consoles for a larf, then.

Yes, people can create such high fidelity assets for "larfs" any day of the week.

 

[DrWong]

Oh god, the smoke is coming out of his skin, not from his mouth or nose. Cannot unsee!

Need 20 time more powerful system to fix it...

 

[Rapstah]

Someone should make a 600x400@25fps game with Samaritan graphics on current consoles for a larf, then.

Halo 3 is a very serious project.

 

[gofreak]

Yes, people can create such high fidelity assets for "larfs" any day of the week.

I'm joking

Even getting a tech demo running wouldn't be as straightforward as reducing the number of pixels/framerate to come to a similar flops/pixel number. There's probably a fair number of operations going on in that demo that would be disproportionately slow on the current console gpu architectures etc. etc.

There's a little part of me though that's academically curious about what the result would be like if someone 'shadow-of-the-colossus-ed' the current gen systems at SD resolutions. Very hypothetically curious though

 

[Barack Lesnar]

One commonality I've noticed in these threads (and I've been following them closely for months) is it's almost always Nintendo fans (DCKing, StevieP, and others) who are trying to downplay the potential for next-gen graphics in a thinly veiled attempt to damage control the Wii U's specs. Try to be a little less transparent.

 

[Postman]

One commonality I've noticed in these threads (and I've been following them closely for months) is it's almost always Nintendo fans who are trying to downplay the potential for next-gen graphics and non-Wii U consoles (DCKing, StevieP, and others). Try to be a little less transparent.

Or maybe some people are just spouting nonsense about things we know nothing about. I can not tell you what the Wii u is going to be capable of and we actually know a lot more about it than as of right now the mythical next xbox or ps4.

I should add that I hope the next xbox and ps4 and as powerful as they can be.

 

[King_Moc]

I am guessing if next-gen goes the way I want it too-

Sony- Samaritan 1080p all bells and whistles
Microsoft- Samaritan modified 1080p (1280 X 1080p) all bells and whistles, or 1080p less AA
Wii U- Samaritan 720p all bells and whistles

Sounds about right?

Why would you specifically want the three companies to have different levels of power and for them to be in that order?