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[Ryaaan14]

No.

If, as Mumei claims, certain types of Rape are a product of culture. (The college culture, lets say) then constructing a caricature of anyone who's accused and convicted of Rape as one who is violent, irredeemable, and likely to preform other violent acts only makes them violent, irredeemable, and likely to preform other violent acts. Whereas if we punish them as required by law, but allow them to grow beyond the culture that created the problem in the first place, then we've achieved reform.

The call it Rape Culture for a reason. People, men and women, are desensitized to the problem and the problem continues.

Ok but this has already been acknowledged, so he is essentially looking to destroy the culture that is responsible for the "culture rape", instead of treating it like the brutal kind.

I honestly have to disagree with that. If we change one culture, there will be another. There's always going to be a "soft" and "hard" method of a crime, regardless of what culture it's attached to. I think chasing down the social aspect of it is like chasing your tail. The law and striking fear into potential rapists is the one constant that will get results, I think.

 

[marrec]

But I also think that when we're trying to educate, that if we come into a room of, say, 18 - 22 year old college-aged men and we say, "These things are rape. If you do these things, you are evil incarnate. You are the most wretched person in the world," you'll end up having more trouble. People do not think of themselves as essentially evil. If you tell people "Rapists are bad evil people" there are people who who think "Well I'm not an evil person, so I can't be a rapist."

Yes. This.

If you characterize all rapists as evil then it's easy for people to be casual about it. Rape, to them, is easily definable as 'Evil' while a bit of verbal pressure while someone is intoxicated is ignored.

Ok but this has already been acknowledged, so he is essentially looking to destroy the culture that is responsible for the "culture rape", instead of treating it like the brutal kind.

I honestly have to disagree with that. If we change one culture, there will be another. There's always going to be a "soft" and "hard" method of a crime, regardless of what culture it's attached to. I think chasing down the social aspect of it is like chasing your tail. The law and striking fear into potential rapists is the one constant that will get results, I think.

You can't strike fear into a potential rapist who doesn't know they're going to be a potential rapist.

Also, why the fuck not chase down the social aspect? Why can't we take your hard line but also smoke out the ignorance and stupidity at the root?

What point of intoxication?

Just an example, I could've also used:

"while a husband forcing himself on his wife is ignored"

 

[Vermillion]

What point of intoxication?

 

[hateradio]

The law and striking fear into potential rapists is the one constant that will get results, I think.

Fear doesn't stop anyone from committing a crime.


I feel like I'm back in college again. Let's talk about Foucault.

What point of intoxication?

Take another drink. ;]

 

[marrec]

Fear doesn't stop anyone from committing a crime.


I feel like I'm back in college again. Let's talk about Foucault.


Take another drink. ;]

The death penalty sure has stopped all those murderers.

 

[Gaborn]

Ok but this has already been acknowledged, so he is essentially looking to destroy the culture that is responsible for the "culture rape", instead of treating it like the brutal kind.

I honestly have to disagree with that. If we change one culture, there will be another. There's always going to be a "soft" and "hard" method of a crime, regardless of what culture it's attached to. I think chasing down the social aspect of it is like chasing your tail. The law and striking fear into potential rapists is the one constant that will get results, I think.

I think you're wrong, and it's been proven in other areas that simple law and order solutions don't really... work. Alcohol and the problems associated with alcohol didn't stop with prohibition. Yet look at Europe. They drink more than we do but they've got a healthier attitude towards drinking than us and less drunk driving. I believe the problem with rape IS cultural and because of that you can't just legislate it away or "crack down" on it, you've got to attack the root of the problem to actually deal with it.

 

[marrec]

What's a rapist to fear from anyway if their victim doesn't want to come forward because culturally we're expected to distrust a woman crying rape?

 

[Baconsammy]

You can't strike fear into someone that doesn't think of himself as a rapist. A form of rape prevention is educating young men about the situations that can be a potential danger, and how to avoid them. More of this needs to be done in high schools and college.

 

[Vermillion]

You can't strike fear into someone that doesn't think of himself as a rapist. A form of rape prevention is educating young men about the situations that can be a potential danger, and how to avoid them. More of this needs to be done in high schools and college.

This and, based off of mumei's post, we need to educate people more about what situations are rape. Because it seems that some people don't understand what constitutes rape.

 

[Ryaaan14]

You can't strike fear into a potential rapist who doesn't know they're going to be a potential rapist.

Also, why the fuck not chase down the social aspect? Why can't we take your hard line but also smoke out the ignorance and stupidity at the root?

See, this is precisely what I'm talking about, I feel as if the root of the problem is these individuals are sick, and are committing these crimes. THAT is the root. The subculture comes after the crime. This is going to turn into a chicken or the egg argument probably, but before the subculture even existed, there were people committing these crimes, and it obviously spread like wildfire, probably because of the excessive amount of alcohol, drugs, sexual promiscuity.

Trust me I know where you're all coming from too, you're basically stating that a person who under normal circumstances would NOT commit rape, is doing it simply because of the cultural "acceptance". And I guess I just cannot accept that idea.

 

[Vermillion]

See, this is precisely what I'm talking about, I feel as if the root of the problem is these individuals are sick, and are committing these crimes. THAT is the root. The subculture comes after the crime. This is going to turn into a chicken or the egg argument probably, but before the subculture even existed, there were people committing these crimes, and it obviously spread like wildfire, probably because of the excessive amount of alcohol, drugs, sexual promiscuity.

Trust me I know where you're all coming from too, you're basically stating that a person who under normal circumstances would NOT commit rape, is doing it simply because of the cultural "acceptance". And I guess I just cannot accept that idea.

Biology > Culture > Reinforcement of biology

I'm going to stick with this chain here. But I'm certain that the culture has existed for a VERY long time, but if there was anything before that, it was that some people in the past couldn't keep their dicks in their tunics.

 

[marrec]

See, this is precisely what I'm talking about, I feel as if the root of the problem is these individuals are sick, and are committing these crimes. THAT is the root. The subculture comes after the crime. This is going to turn into a chicken or the egg argument probably, but before the subculture even existed, there were people committing these crimes, and it obviously spread like wildfire, probably because of the excessive amount of alcohol, drugs, sexual promiscuity.

Trust me I know where you're all coming from too, you're basically stating that a person who under normal circumstances would NOT commit rape, is doing it simply because of the cultural "acceptance". And I guess I just cannot accept that idea.

Women were raped for centuries not as victims but as 'wives' and 'whores'. The idea of Rape being a 'crime' in the sense that you're proposing is extremely new (Relatively speaking). Promiscuity does not beget rape, a woman being promiscuous was part of how she was able to take back her own sexual identity from the culture of men who would, and still do, allow these various types of other rapes to occur. Blaming promiscuity for Rape is like blaming a bullet proof jacket for getting shot, it's fucking dumb.

You cannot accept the idea because you don't want to be presented with the truth of the matter, that otherwise good wholesome kids can be swept up in this culture of acceptance and find themselves taking advantage of someone sexually BECAUSE they were either ignorant or willfully blind.

 

[Ryaaan14]

Women were raped for centuries not as victims but as 'wives' and 'whores'. The idea of Rape being a 'crime' in the sense that you're proposing is extremely new (Relatively speaking). Promiscuity does not beget rape, a woman being promiscuous was part of how she was able to take back her own sexual identity from the culture of men who would, and still do, allow these various types of other rapes to occur. Blaming promiscuity for Rape is like blaming a bullet proof jacket for getting shot, it's fucking dumb.

You cannot accept the idea because you don't want to be presented with the truth of the matter, that otherwise good wholesome kids can be swept up in this culture of acceptance and find themselves taking advantage of someone sexually BECAUSE they were either ignorant or willfully blind.

Just to be clear, I meant that in the way that people in that environment are perhaps being desensitized to sex. I was NOT saying that someone was raped BECAUSE they were promiscuous.

 

[marrec]

Just to be clear, I meant that in the way that people in that environment are perhaps being desensitized to sex. I was NOT saying that someone was raped BECAUSE they were promiscuous.

What we need is more desensitization to sex, not less! Part of the problem is the idea that a woman who is raped is just a 'Slut' who wants attention. Fuck that.

Yet still you're persist in trying to characterize rapists as evil, because we can recognize evil right! It's not everything surrounding them that allows these types of awful crimes to happen, they're just born evil!

 

[Ryaaan14]

What we need is more desensitization to sex, not less! Part of the problem is the idea that a woman who is raped is just a 'Slut' who wants attention. Fuck that.

Yet still you're persist in trying to characterize rapists as evil, because we can recognize evil right! It's not everything surrounding them that allows these types of awful crimes to happen, they're just born evil!

Read my previous posts. I said that rapists are shaped the same way every other criminal is. Desperate, insane, serious family issues, the list goes on.

I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but I'm not stupid enough to think people are "born evil".

 

[Vermillion]

Women were raped for centuries not as victims but as 'wives' and 'whores'. The idea of Rape being a 'crime' in the sense that you're proposing is extremely new (Relatively speaking). Promiscuity does not beget rape, a woman being promiscuous was part of how she was able to take back her own sexual identity from the culture of men who would, and still do, allow these various types of other rapes to occur. Blaming promiscuity for Rape is like blaming a bullet proof jacket for getting shot, it's fucking dumb.

You cannot accept the idea because you don't want to be presented with the truth of the matter, that otherwise good wholesome kids can be swept up in this culture of acceptance and find themselves taking advantage of someone sexually BECAUSE they were either ignorant or willfully blind.

1) This is also true
2) The analogy seems strange somehow. What would a non-promiscuous woman be - one who is content with her sexual identity being determined by men?

 

[marrec]

Read my previous posts. I said that rapists are shaped the same way every other criminal is. Desperate, insane, serious family issues, the list goes on.

I am not the brightest crayon in the box, but I'm not stupid enough to think people are "born evil".

Some rapists maybe. Not all. It's plain naivety to believe so and most everyone else who takes a hard look at the situation we find ourselves in has come to the same conclusions as myself, Mumei, and Bacon.

Rapists aren't every other criminal, and the fact you WILL NOT accept this just goes to show that we have a lot more work to do if we want to stop places like Missoula from just accepting sexual crimes.

2) The analogy seems strange somehow. What would a non-promiscuous woman be - one who is content with her sexual identity being determined by men?

You're thinking about it in the terms of 2012, think about it in the terms of 1950/1960 when the sexual revolution was actually taking place.

 

[Ryaaan14]

Some rapists maybe. Not all. It's plain naivety to believe so and most everyone else who takes a hard look at the situation we find ourselves in has come to the same conclusions as myself, Mumei, and Bacon.

Rapists aren't every other criminal, and the fact you WILL NOT accept this just goes to show that we have a lot more work to do if we want to stop places like Missoula from just accepting sexual crimes.

Alright, well since human morality is out of the equation in this conversation, I'm out.

Good talk gents.

 

[Vermillion]

You're thinking about it in the terms of 2012, think about it in the terms of 1950/1960 when the sexual revolution was actually taking place.

True.

So, can we establish (for future rape threads) that culture is the problem when it comes to rape, and that we need to educate more young men as to what constitutes rape (and let this be the first successful rape discussion on GAF, lol)?

 

[Baconsammy]

True.

So, can we establish (for future rape threads) that culture is the problem when it comes to rape, and that we need to educate more young men as to what constitutes rape (and let this be the first successful rape discussion on GAF, lol)?

Some rape. Not nearly all. Culture isn't the cause of violent rapes or child molestation. Those are sicknesses. The story this thread is referring to, however, yes.

 

[marrec]

True.

So, can we establish (for future rape threads) that culture is the problem when it comes to rape, and that we need to educate more young men as to what constitutes rape (and let this be the first successful rape discussion on GAF, lol)?

I agree whole heatedly with education of young men and women.

...

We also need vocal leaders in the feminist community to challenge culturally accepted norms in ways that may make us uncomfortable...

 

[Vermillion]

Some rape. Not nearly all. Culture isn't the cause of violent rapes or child molestation. Those are sicknesses.

Well, a major problem, anyways, for those that we count as "normal" among us. Of course there's mental illness and force and the like. Establishment of dominance, etc.

But those are other issues to tackle.

 

[coldvein]

people are animals.

 

[Vermillion]

We also need vocal leaders in the feminist community to challenge culturally accepted norms in ways that may make us uncomfortable...

What culturally accepted norms we're talking about here?

 

[marrec]

people are animals.

You're an animal baby! *rawr*

What culturally accepted norms we're talking about here?

That's a discussion for another night, I have to make pancakes in like 5 hours.

 

[coldvein]

You're an animal baby! *rawr*

it is true. so true.

 

[Baconsammy]

Well, a major problem, anyways, for those that we count as "normal" among us. Of course there's mental illness and force and the like. Establishment of dominance, etc.

But those are other issues to tackle.

It all got so muddled yesterday because certain people were incapable of having this particular conversation civilly, but yes in the case of the story linked, rape prevention in the form of educating males (and even scaring the shit out of them) is vital, while also still advocating the NOW endorsed rape prevention advice for females. The problem is the first isnt being done much at all, putting too much of an onus on the second.

 

[Vermillion]

That's a discussion for another night, I have to make pancakes in like 5 hours.

Gotcha - I'll hold you to that!

It all got so muddled yesterday because certain people were incapable of having this particular conversation civilly, but yes in the case of the story linked, rape prevention in the form of educating males (and even scaring the shit out of them) is vital, while also still advocating the NOW endorsed rape prevention advice for females. The problem is the first isnt being done much at all, putting too much onus on the second.

Agreed.

 

[marrec]

It all got so muddled yesterday because certain people were incapable of having this particular conversation civilly, but yes in the case of the story linked, rape prevention in the form of educating males (and even scaring the shit out of them) is vital, while also still advocating the NOW endorsed rape prevention advice for females. The problem is the first isnt being done much at all, putting too much of an onus on the second.

...vocal leaders in the feminist community to challenge culturally accepted norms in ways that may make us uncomfortable...

I'm glad we're both still disagreeing in subtle ways.

 

[Vermillion]

I'm glad we're both still disagreeing in subtle ways.

Oi. Hasn't civility proven to be a better weapon in the past anyways?

 

[marrec]

Oi. Hasn't civility proven to be a better weapon in the past anyways?

Not always. We need someone who isn't civil, civility in discussions is vastly overrated by some people.

That's it, I'm gone.

 

[Baconsammy]

I'm glad we're both still disagreeing in subtle ways.

I wasn't referring to you. Sorry if you took it as I was. You disagreed a lot as is your right. You were never an ass about it. The problem is that it got ugly and then I became part of the problem as well be responding to it poorly. A mod pointed it out to get things back on track. The sign of a well-run board, imo.

 

[Vermillion]

Not always. We need someone who isn't civil, civility in discussions is vastly overrated by some people.

That's it, I'm gone.

Disagreement and anger is fine, but when you stop being civil, I think you hurt your cause.

Past movements only prove this.

 

[Timedog]

See this is where we disagree. I don't feel like normal people are being conditioned in any way to become more likely to commit rape. I think that there are two factors that lie under most acts of violence. The first being the mind of a violent and unstable person, which I am by no means qualified to explain. I lump rapists in with any other violent person. The second factor is on the victim. This isn't just in rape cases, this goes for anything from walking down the street alone at night, to being raped. You must exercise awareness no matter who you are, and not just assume you are going to be safe thinking everyone in the world SHOULDN'T be violent. You encounter violence EVERYWHERE. Now once again, this is not blaming the victim, this is merely explaining why this is such a frequent form of violence.

tl;dr rapists aren't any different than any other violent person.

If you are discounting the effects of environment, then you are saying people are just born rapists. There are normal people, and there are rapists, and environment has no effect. That's certainly an allowable argument, but at that point I can do things like ohhhh look up rape statistics by race, and call you a racist against whatever races commit the most rape. Also, since you said rapists are no different from other violent people, I can do the same thing for other violent crimes.

So, either you don't believe that environment conditions people to become more likely to commit rape, and I call you out for being a racist.

Or

You agree that environment plays a factor, and we can have a discussion about how to change that environment for the better.

 

[Baconsammy]

Disagreement and anger is fine, but when you stop being civil, I think you hurt your cause.

Past movements only prove this.

That is the absolute truth. Have a goodnight, guys/gals. Gotta go wrap my wife's Mother's Day gift.

 

[BladeoftheImmortal]

 

[coldvein]

You agree that environment plays a factor, and we can have a discussion about how to change that environment for the better.

that sounds good, we should do that.

 

[RawPower]

Taking preventative measures is helpful, but in the end it will likely only amount to a small dent in the statistics. The discussion should be on curing the disease itself, i.e. the pervasive culture of misogyny that is nigh ubiquitous.

This is retarded. In the time it took you to read this. I rufied your drink.

Choose your words more carefully please. I have Asperger's.

 

[Vermillion]

Choose your words more carefully please. I have Asperger's.

Asperger's doesn't make you mentally retarded.

 

[Mumei]

You can't strike fear into a potential rapist who doesn't know they're going to be a potential rapist.

Also, why the fuck not chase down the social aspect? Why can't we take your hard line but also smoke out the ignorance and stupidity at the root?

Correct.

And it does not matter if we increase the punishment if there are still wide swathes of young people in particular who use euphemisms like "a date that went bad" or "a misunderstanding" or "drunk sex" for what was actually sexually assault.

It does not matter if we increase the punishment if we still have a culture that says:

- "most rape reports are false"
- “I mean, the guy was definitely pushing too hard, but is that rape?”
- girls in Missoula are the type who "make shit up for attention."
- Girls "cry rape" in Missoula, say the girls of Missoula, who are often quicker to blame "sluts" for getting themselves into sketchy situations than are guys.
- They're unable to parrot the politically correct buzzwords they think they should say ("no is no") without adding a caveat or two ("but girls here are attention whores.")
- "I don't give a fuck about your statistics," she says, pounding the table for emphasis. "Things are different in Missoula. I'm not saying they're not rapists. But the girls help it along."
- "I think a lot of the sexual assaults are pretty fucking legit except for there are a lot of really slutty girls here who want to get with a lot of people and then they want to claim rape

These attitudes are clearly problematic; they make it less likely that women will come forward in the first place and less likely that someone claiming rape will be believed in the first place.

What culturally accepted norms we're talking about here?

Just a few:

"Rape culture is victim-blaming. Rape culture is a judge blaming a child for her own rape. Rape culture is a minister blaming his child victims. Rape culture is accusing a child of enjoying being held hostage, raped, and tortured. Rape culture is spending enormous amounts of time finding any reason at all that a victim can be blamed for hir own rape.

Rape culture is judges banning the use of the word rape in the courtroom. Rape culture is the media using euphemisms for sexual assault. Rape culture is stories about rape being featured in the Odd News.

Rape culture is tasking victims with the burden of rape prevention. Rape culture is encouraging women to take self-defense as though that is the only solution required to preventing rape. Rape culture is admonishing women to "learn common sense" or "be more responsible" or "be aware of barroom risks" or "avoid these places" or "don't dress this way," and failing to admonish men to not rape.

Rape culture is "nothing" being the most frequent answer to a question about what people have been formally taught about rape.

Rape culture is boys under 10 years old knowing how to rape.

Rape culture is the idea that only certain people rape—and only certain people get raped. Rape culture is ignoring that the thing about rapists is that they rape people. They rape people who are strong and people who are weak, people who are smart and people who are dumb, people who fight back and people who submit just to get it over with, people who are sluts and people who are prudes, people who rich and people who are poor, people who are tall and people who are short, people who are fat and people who are thin, people who are blind and people who are sighted, people who are deaf and people who can hear, people of every race and shape and size and ability and circumstance.

Rape culture is the narrative that sex workers can't be raped. Rape culture is the assertion that wives can't be raped. Rape culture is the contention that only nice girls can be raped.

Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing that the victim of every rapist shares in common is bad fucking luck. Rape culture is refusing to acknowledge that the only thing a person can do to avoid being raped is never be in the same room as a rapist. Rape culture is avoiding talking about what an absurdly unreasonable expectation that is, since rapists don't announce themselves or wear signs or glow purple."​

The text in the original has links and much more. It is one of the first explanations rape culture is beyond the definition that I came across.

 

[truly101]

What's a rapist to fear from anyway if their victim doesn't want to come forward because culturally we're expected to distrust a woman crying rape?

Not always, especially if you consider where it takes places, the circumstances.

 

[Vermillion]

@mumei:

Those aren't culturally accepted norms. Or at least, I'd like to think that they aren't based off of what we've discussed in this thread.

 

[Mumei]

@mumei:

Those aren't culturally accepted norms. Or at least, I'd like to think that they aren't based off of what we've discussed in this thread.

Taken singularly, one could look at many of those examples individually and say, for instance, "Well, it's not a cultural norm for judges to not allow the use of the word "rape" in their courtroom." But it is less about the individual examples in and of themselves and the way that taken together they can reveal a larger trend about how we really view rape - not how we say we think of rape, but what our actions and rhetoric as a society says we think about rape. And it's not a pretty picture. There are culturally accepted norms that are central to all of those; they show a pattern of presenting rape as a less serious crime, of using it as fodder for humor or as a threat, of pretending that it is a compliment or is primarily about sexual attraction. There's a pattern of focusing exclusively on the actions of the woman and turning any discussion about rape culture into a discussion about what women can do better.

We might say that we don't support any of those things. I don't. I imagine most everyone willing to post about it will say that they don't. And yet within our culture, these are all norms relating to rape that we like to stick our heads in the sand about and pretend aren't real attitudes held by many people. I think charlequin's earlier explanation of rape culture in general is useful here. It's not that this is monolithic. With respect to norms, it's also "just a bunch of diffuse cultural factors that add up to more than the sum of their parts."

And those are by no means the only examples; one could also look at the norms associated with how we've constructed a masculine identity that seems like a recipe for bad decisions and in which masculinity and violence are deeply intertwined. We could talk about the ways in which girls are socialized from a very young age to view their own value as being primarily sexual, or of boys being socialized to believe that they have an implicit right of access to women's bodies. I just happened to pick an article that talks about ways in which we seem to think of rape in terms of rape myths.

Not always, especially if you consider where it takes places, the circumstances.

Can you elucidate?

 

[Wiktor]

so... are you suggesting if a woman decides she doesn't want to have sex with you you'll cut off all contact?

Of course, considering he was talking about flirting, buying drinks, dates etc

 

[truly101]

Can you elucidate?

I would say for a lot of sexual assaults that make the news at least, I'm inclined to believe the attack happened, especially if its on or around a college campus. I think the stats bear that out (although thats not always true and can backfire horribly).

I think the average person who would read about a sexual assault or rape involving college age kids is probably going to think some sort of crime happened to the victim. Now I'm not talking about actual guilt, just the belief that sexual assault took place.

Now I'm thinking of people like you and me, people removed from the community where it happened, because they have their own preconceived notions about what constitutes sexual assault and who the actual victim is, like the students at University of Montana.

We also know colleges, campus police and those communities have a tendency to whitewash or flat out ignore sexual assault, whether they think something happened or did not.

 

[Inanna]

Alternatively, here's how the discussion appears to me (long-term):

forever and ever: no discussion about rape
recently: "Rape is horrible, but also shameful for the victim and reflects badly on her.

now:

"Well maybe we should talk about men"

"Okay, rape is bad - now here is how women can protect themselves!"

"Yeah but shouldn't we talk about why men think this is okay"

"We all know rape is bad, let's talk about how women can protect themselves"

"Well we've done that for decades now, so I think we've pretty much run the meter out on that conversation..."

"Yeah, but women shouldn't be walking home with strangers or getting drunk!"

"Okay but even if women are saint-like in their devotion to personal safety, they'll still be vulnerable many times in their lives"

"Women should also make sure they aren't jogging alone or drinking with people they don't trust!"

"Well that won't protect women against the vast majority of rapes..."

Etc.

There seems to be a concerted effort to keep the subject about where women can do better, and if it isn't intentional it certainly looks like it.

You forgot to add when you do tell these people that yes we've done the whole precaution and prevention thing for centuries now, let's talk about how we can teach men about rape or talk about how you can stop the rapist without going "She should have done this or that" you get "OMG, that would only happen in a perfect Utopia world!". Devolution was getting a lot of this "utopia" BS in the first few pages and I don't think anybody mentioned how ridiculous it is.

 

[truly101]

I wonder if anyone who has studied incidents of date-rape and sexual assault has any data on where the rapist set out to "score" no matter what, or shit got out of hand and the rapist didn't stop when he should have. What is more likely?

 

[Timedog]

I wonder if anyone who has studied incidents of date-rape and sexual assault has any data on where the rapist set out to "score" no matter what, or shit got out of hand and the rapist didn't stop when he should have. What is more likely?

I'm going to guess the second one, but yeah actual data on things is always cool.

 

[Baconsammy]

You forgot to add when you do tell these people that yes we've done the whole precaution and prevention thing for centuries now, let's talk about how we can teach men about rape or talk about how you can stop the rapist without going "She should have done this or that" you get "OMG, that would only happen in a perfect Utopia world!". Devolution was getting a lot of this "utopia" BS in the first few pages and I don't think anybody mentioned how ridiculous it is.

You expected there to be an informed civil discussion when Devolution's immediate response was "Prevention is a myth. You hate women. You're a victim blamer!" Prevention isn't a myth. What everyone, including you just now, want to talk about is PREVENTION(you can't say prevention is a myth and then in the next sentence ask how do we prevent rapes). What law enforcement, universities, women's groups etc want to talk about is prevention. How do you prevent men from raping. And that's the problem. Which rapists are you trying to prevent? The child molester? The date rapist? The husband that thinks he owns his wife and can therefore do as he pleases? The soldiers that rape as a tactic of war? The rapist who literally hides in bushes and rapes strangers, not for sex, but for power or out of anger/rage? The reason the National Organization of Women preach and advise women to be vigilant and take precautions is because the task of preventing men from raping is daunting, and no one seems to want to address it or fund it. But for the sake of this thread, people want to talk about how do you prevent men from raping. Pick the percentage of rapist you want to deal with. The suggestion earlier was the men covered in the linked article. That's a good place to start.

 

[RDreamer]

Since you guys are talking about punishment vs changing culture, I've been thinking about this: I think one of the big hurdles with regard to the punishment route, and possibly one of the problems in general with the culture and how we handle the consequences of rape is that our entire legal system and mindset is based on "innocent until proven guilty." Ideologically we push to be beyond a shadow of a doubt about someone before we condemn them. Certainly as a culture we do condemn some before the courts do, but a lot of times these are in very polarizing or almost obvious situations. How do you fit the ideologies of how we protect the innocent with a crime that can sometimes come down to a he said she said sort of thing? I mean it really is a large conundrum in a way. Women aren't going to come forward if people are going to dredge through their past and through their motivations and what they were doing that night. That's understandable, completely. At the same time how do you presume innocence of the accused and not search through some of that?

I think that's why culture has to be changed and people have to be educated. First and foremost men have to be educated on what rape is. This should really be in all sex education, but unfortunately for our country we don't even necessarily have sex education for everyone. You just can't get into these things at all if you have abstinence only education laws.

Next, I think it would be an important step forward if we keep erasing the stigma against sex in general and especially women having sex. If there is no slut shaming, then women would feel more comfortable coming forward even if some of their past or intentions for that night would come forward along with it. That and you'd have much less false rape accusations. Not that I'm saying there are a lot of those. Certainly I'm sure there aren't that many compared to the real ones. But, I think if you minimize that threat, then you can get to the meat of the problem quicker. If women don't feel like they have this huge stigma on them for having sex at all, then there's little to no reason to accuse someone of rape in order to keep your pride or whatever it is. Again, I don't say this because I think there's an epidemic of false rapes, but in the mind of the culture if there is a real tangible reason and benefit for doing it, then people will point to it more and more.