I thought the 360 got the short end of the speculation stick, I mean I was surprised it did so well with 3rd party games after all the e3 killzone hubbub, and launching a year later. I expected a ps2/xbox difference...especially since the 360 was getting the 1.5 treatment at the same e3.
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VGLeaks Durango specs: x64 8-core CPU @1.6GHz, 8GB DDR3 + 32MB ESRAM, 50GB 6x BD...
- Thread starter Shikoro
- Start date
I thought the 360 got the short end of the speculation stick, I mean I was surprised it did so well with 3rd party games after all the e3 killzone hubbub, and launching a year later. I expected a ps2/xbox difference...especially since the 360 was getting the 1.5 treatment at the same e3.
dragonelite
Member
Arent the DMA Just something to get and put data from the PCI expres bus. I read something about that in the AMD openCL programmers guide for the 79xx series cards.
I just glanced over the last couple of pages where people are clinging onto my words. I just want to say it one more time, in my opinion, I do not know which machine is more powerful. Do not take my opinion about what is written on paper to be what a programmer would say.
On the other hand, the Orbis SDK is not final. It appears much more powerful, but until final silicon arrives, it is still 1.843 TF with 4 GB GDDR at 192 GB/S (and I'll make a prediction that number will go down significantly to 140-160 GB/S in the form of Wide IO Ram).
On the other hand, the Orbis SDK is not final. It appears much more powerful, but until final silicon arrives, it is still 1.843 TF with 4 GB GDDR at 192 GB/S (and I'll make a prediction that number will go down significantly to 140-160 GB/S in the form of Wide IO Ram).
Game design perfection.
Yep. Specs could bump up or bump down come release for both consoles.
I seriously don't think the Data Move Engines have anything to do with DMA. DMA is a pretty basic function of graphics chips (and expansion cards in general), it'd be like hyping up a CPU's secret sauce of being able to divide numbers*.
*Fun fact: The much-hyped DEC Alpha CPU from the early '90's did not have a divide instruction.
*Fun fact: The much-hyped DEC Alpha CPU from the early '90's did not have a divide instruction.
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
After browsing DF for the first time today I've come to this opinion as well. I hope there is parity, but I'm not betting on it. We won't know anything for sure until we see the games.
--edit I meant Beyond 3D, not DF.
XtremeXpider
Member
oversitting
Banned
I find it weird they would use a word like move.
Data Move? how is that suppose to describe anything but a standard bus...
Data Move Engine? Even if it just does memory management, this is a weird name.
Brad Grenz
Member
DMAs move data from where it is to where you want it. In the case of a PC graphics card, that is often across the PCI Express bus, but they aren't PCI Express specific. They move data in and out of local caches, local memory and main memory. In the case of Cell that was in and out of Local Stoage on the SPEs, the L2 Cache and the XDR. A component named after moving data implies strongly it may have some relation to DMA solutions.
shinra-bansho
Member
But he can see the polygons. He counts them as a hobby.
I just wanted to clear the air. I know specs, and I've seen papers. This is the extent of my 'leakage'. I am not going to endorse either system as a work horse or the victor. Developers have averted doing any comparisons when pressed.
One dev, posting in this thread right now, has told me, he is amazed at how much the Orbis kit is improving. Proelite knows who I am talking about. If you want to play with bones, there it is. He is not making a single comparison to Durango.
In either case, third parties will develop for the lowest common denominator, this is a fact GAF needs to respect. I know some members get their dick's wet by knowing one machine is significantly more powerful, but all that does is lower the ceiling for third party tech. In the end, we all lose.
BTW no one has answered, has Karak managed to produce a single solitary fact since his initial cry for attention?
One dev, posting in this thread right now, has told me, he is amazed at how much the Orbis kit is improving. Proelite knows who I am talking about. If you want to play with bones, there it is. He is not making a single comparison to Durango.
In either case, third parties will develop for the lowest common denominator, this is a fact GAF needs to respect. I know some members get their dick's wet by knowing one machine is significantly more powerful, but all that does is lower the ceiling for third party tech. In the end, we all lose.
BTW no one has answered, has Karak managed to produce a single solitary fact since his initial cry for attention?
When I saw the "data move engines" I was going to post speculation that it was basically a fancy DMA controller, which everyone else seems to think, too. It is a basic function but I think if you're going to have some kind of fast scratchpad memory it helps a lot as you don't have to involve the CPU in copying the memory around (you can typically do this asynchronously and do something else while the memory is being copied). It's also possible that it might be able to do some basic manipulation on the data while it is being copied (for example, convert from one format to another, or do scatter/gather type stuff).
Interestingly, I don't recall either Xbox having a DMA controller in the past, although it has been standard hardware in many (most?) consoles. I know the PS2 and PS3 had one, with the PS3 implementation being pretty robust.
Karak
Member
Thanks for keeping us updated. Appreciate your contributions. I'm even more curious now.
This could also mean that the tools are also improving, along with the specs.
exmachina64
Banned
Work four jobs.
Karak
Member
Loans.
XtremeXpider
Member
Bad news....
I've already started putting money away. I'm trying to put $100/wk aside but failing that about $50/wk which should give me more than enough come launch.
Remember when I wondered aloud if MS was just playing up a feature that has been standard in GPUs for a while, and maybe people were getting all hot and bothered over pretty mundane features?
Hmm...
So AMD GPUs have had "DMA Engines" since the 6900 series. Is that all the DMEs are?
That's not what the move engines are.
specialguy
Banned
another informative erp post about the dma engines
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1697618&postcount=482
so the answer to "can the dma engines help graphics performance in a significant way?" seems to be "maybe".
one things for sure, just like 360 it seems to me like microsoft has the more fun, interesting design this time around. i like thinking about all the caveats and potentials of durango while orbis just seems straightforward.
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1697618&postcount=482
so the answer to "can the dma engines help graphics performance in a significant way?" seems to be "maybe".
one things for sure, just like 360 it seems to me like microsoft has the more fun, interesting design this time around. i like thinking about all the caveats and potentials of durango while orbis just seems straightforward.
I can only handle one boss (my wife)
If it weren't for those I wouldn't be in this mess....I'd really like to put a winky smiley face but it's the shit-fuck-goddam-whydidIhavetobesuchasentimentalnitwitshitforbrainssonofabitchtobeginwithinthefirstplace-truth
Which is why a part of me might be disappointed by Sony Exclusives if true. I mean they should all reach 100% quality easily... But we probably won't be seeing mindblowing stuff like using a CPU for MLAA and taking over the majority of graphical tasks.
XtremeXpider
Member
If all this "special sauce" is for building better games, ok, but if it is for Kinect or anything not related to games, then it is not ok for me.
Somewhat true. But we should see more competent multiplatform titles or ports, which ultimately will benefit Sony and the consumer more.
XtremeXpider
Member
If PS4 is x86 like Durango, with a more PC-like approach, devs will not be in problem getting all the juice of PS4.
Kinect games are non games?
Anything you don't personally like is a non-game silly.
If people are worried that consoles will be tapped out on launch day- don't be. There are too many cool new tricks in these cards. Also, we have HSA, GPGPU coding, and whatever special sauce these children come up with. We are in for a long haul gentlemen. HSA + GPGPU will insure us some amazing results if developers get their shit together.
iamshadowlark
Banned
I don't think people are too worried which third party game will look better.
Why do people assume this? It's not like devs are getting 100 percent out of PCs now. Unique hardware will have approaches that work to its benefit more than others. Developers will need to take time to figure that out. But they're starting on better footing than they have before.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I wouldn't be so sure of that.
Given the bandwidth at their disposal, I expect a lot of cool effects to be used in different ways.
I really think some of the stuff done with the Cell in programming probably won't be topped this gen. But we'll see.
I honestly think this might be the closest we've ever come.
HSA + GPGPU are the new Cell processor. Only this time, results aren't obtuse, and both consoles are committing to it.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Thought this was interesting, ERP responding to if the esram was low latency:
Atari still hasn't been fully tapped. Decade long plan...etc
specialguy
Banned
well some of it is. the audio chips are for kinect speech recognition too for example. they're supposedly incredibly powerful. no wonder ms went with separate hardware there, a decision at first i didnt agree with since i figured the last thing a machine with 8 small general purpose cores looking for something to do needs, is an audio chip. but the more i learn, they were certainly necessary.
Karak
Member
Thats more like 2-3 decades now.
Just hitting its stride
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I think the difficulty next gen will be how to make do with all the power at their disposal rather than working with architecture that feels like a constraint.
Even on the 360, which was a much easier platform to work with, we saw pretty amazing improvements in graphics even 7 years later with Halo 4.
Sure, there may not be any cool coding tricks devised to get around a platform's eccentricities like CELL, but I don't feel it will somehow mean the consoles will be tapped out early....far from it
Minds would be blown if Shenmue 3 became Atari exclusive?
XtremeXpider
Member
I'm not saying "kinect games", I mean "kinect and other stuff", something like DVR, Set-top box, Apps, etc.
Codeblew
Member
I wouldn't say all of the juice, but yes, it will be easier. cross-plat devs don't code down to the metal as much as first party devs do. Their code will still have to run on PC and both Durango and Orbis will have custom parts that will differ.
Edit: "Durango" != "Durant"