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[spwolf]

I think they are going to reveal basic info too, but maybe won't detail specially in the places they can tweak it depending on Durango's data to be announced.

Example : they can announce the processor, the GPU, how the box and the controller looks, games, to say that they won' t repeat the $599 fiasco, and that is going to be released this year in US and that is going to use GDDR5. But wait for E3 for the exact release dates, exact price and amount of RAM.

i doubt they will tweak anything anymore... but they wont be announcing a lot simply because so we can talk about it more

if they told us everything there would be nothing left to anticipate but release, which will be i guess up to year or more away for all of the markets....


so they will trickle information at least on 3 different events leading to reveal.

 

[Maximilian E.]

Historically, clock speeds are only revised downwards (RSX in PS3, Xenon in the 360, everything in the GCN etc.) as increasing them means you need to revise your chassis and cooling systems as well as redo a lot of QA.

If you're looking for surprises at these console reveals, then don't look towards the raw hardware specifications. They're not changing for the better.

The one area that can feasibly be changed (at great cost and effort) at this stage is the memory amount but both Sony and Microsoft are at the realistic limits of their respective memory technologies. So you can write that I've of as well.

Well, not entirely true..
Both Xbox and NGC saw an increase in CPU speed but a lowering in GPU speed (733mhz and 233 mhz from 600/300 for Xbox, 485mhz and 165mhz from 400/200 for the NGC).

As far as I understand, MS seems to have calculated with a spec increase for the final build of Durango. Because we have no clue of the final size of the machine and such, we really dont know how and what kind of cooling solutions MS will use.. and we don´t know details about the mobo either..

so yeah, as far as we know, MS could very easily still have leverage for an increase in speed that is still within their power budget (which we also don´t have a clue about).

So there are still many unknown factors...

 

[brain_stew]

If anything has changed (and it does sound unlikely), I think changing the RAM is probably the only thing they could do at such a late stage (other than tweaking clock speeds). Doesn't the GCN support clamshell memory as standard, so they could double up without major changes to the motherboard - just big extra cost

I'd be surprised if they weren't using clamshell mode already so it could mean adding a large amount of motherboard complexity, far too much for this stage in the game. 16 RAM chips just isn't realistic any which way you slice it.

 

[Hana-Bi]

But what if those rumored specs are for a "base" dev kit and other dev kits with better hardware are also sent out by the MS ninjas? Is it possible that there are multiple dev kits and MS decided last month or so which dev kit should be the goal for the final hardware? Is such a thing feasible?

 

[Jezbollah]

The more I read these comparison, the more I think PSN is critical to Sony's aspirations of "winning the next gen" (ugh. I hated writing that).

If they can make the PSN experience the same as XBox Live with regards to the ability of inviting friends, parties, etc then I believe they will do fantastic.

Even if they get close, I think it will be increasingly hard for MS to justify the Xbox Live subscription costs.

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

I find it weird that all post about xbox from that one poster gets removed but we still have all these detailed leaks from everywhere. It's either on purpose, or none of it is true.

 

[yurinka]

Historically, clock speeds are only revised downwards (RSX in PS3, Xenon in the 360, everything in the GCN etc.) as increasing them means you need to revise your chassis and cooling systems as well as redo a lot of QA.

If you're looking for surprises at these console reveals, then don't look towards the raw hardware specifications. They're not changing for the better.

The one area that can feasibly be changed (at great cost and effort) at this stage is the memory amount but both Sony and Microsoft are at the realistic limits of their respective memory technologies. So you can write that I've of as well.

So isn't possible to upgrade PS4 from 4GB to 8GB?

 

[brain_stew]

So isn't possible to upgrade PS4 from 4GB to 8GB?

It sure as hell isn't likely. At all.

 

[vpance]

It sure as hell isn't likely. At all.

Then why would Edge say what they said and start out with "Most importantly"?

I think we don't know the whole story yet.

 

[brain_stew]

Then why would Edge say what they said and start out with "Most importantly"?

I think we don't know the whole story yet.

RAM has already been increased once. The simplest explanation is that's all the source was talking about. There was no explicit mention of 8GB of GDDR5, people inferred that.

 

[Mandoric]

But what if those rumored specs are for a "base" dev kit and other dev kits with better hardware are also sent out by the MS ninjas? Is it possible that there are multiple dev kits and MS decided last month or so which dev kit should be the goal for the final hardware? Is such a thing feasible?

MS lives off its relationship with third parties. EA, say, would be seriously pissed if they get told six months out from launch, after basically everything but polish is finished, that their devkit was a gimped fake and Activision got the real one with double the RAM and a beefier CPU.

Plus, since leaks are so unpredictable, even if there were multiple kits this late in the game it's equally likely that the one we know about is the high-end option and the weaker version eventually wins out.

 

[vpance]

we’ve learned that Sony has told developers that it is pushing for the final PS4 RAM to match up to Microsoft’s 8GB.

Hard to interpret it any other way really.

MS lives off its relationship with third parties. EA, say, would be seriously pissed if they get told six months out from launch, after basically everything but polish is finished, that their devkit was a gimped fake and Activision got the real one with double the RAM and a beefier CPU.

Plus, since leaks are so unpredictable, even if there were multiple kits this late in the game it's equally likely that the one we know about is the high-end option and the weaker version eventually wins out.

MS wouldn't do EA that. It's more likely that a gimped fake devkit would be given to some shit studio.

 

[grimshawish]

There is no chance of 8GB DDR5; thats another doubling of the RAM; not happening.
Don't care what third parties want; if I was Sony I'd tell them to fuck off. 4GB DDR5 means they can do a lot more with the Orbis than Durango; only reason they'd want 8GB is for lazy porting and making both 'equal'.

Sony take the risk to produce hardware; they should push ahead as is.
The likelihood of them going 8GB is ~0.

It is not happening.

 

[TheExecutive]

But what if he isn't trolling with that comment?

I am sure both companies talked about it internally. That's not news.

 

[TheExecutive]

People aren't expecting a price at this event are they? It would be unlikely.

 

[Slayer-33]

People aren't expecting a price at this event are they? It would be unlikely.

Very true, E3 price reveals imo.

 

[Man]

Let me spoil that price (which will be revealed at E3): It will cost $399.
The bigger question is if they will offer a downpayment (sub.. can't remember the english word) variant. I say not before six months have passed.

 

[RamzaIsCool]

So any theories on the ROPs overkill thing? The way I understand it, it's kinda pointless to have 32 ROPs in your machine. So why did Sony take this route?

 

[Man]

So any theories on the ROPs overkill thing? The way I understand it, it's kinda pointless to have 32 ROPs in your machine. So why did Sony take this route?

4K. Sterescopic 1080p @ 60fps.

 

[Manmademan]

Let me spoil that price (which will be revealed at E3): It will cost $399.
The bigger question is if they will offer a downpayment (sub.. can't remember the english word) variant. I say not before six months have passed.

a subsidized version? probably not. Microsoft does this, but there are a lot of issues with it. Being able to run credit checks on everyone who buys one, for starters.

If its REALLY that big of a deal, any gamers who qualified for this could just as easily get it from best buy/sears/etc and put it on a store credit card.

 

[Painraze]

My guess... PS4: One SKU, $400, 500 GB HDD

 

[Kung Fu Grip]

RAM has already been increased once. The simplest explanation is that's all the source was talking about. There was no explicit mention of 8GB of GDDR5, people inferred that.

But if you read the article they already said that the RAM went up to 4GB. They then said Sony told developers they're going to match the RAM in Durango. Why would they repeat something that already happened?

It doesn't have to be 8GB. Maby something close? Maby not even DDR5.

 

[Maxrunner]

Ballmer has a twitter account? such a bad CEO, i wonder if pple harass him on twitter...

 

[dab0ne]

Two threads become one

So romantic. I love it when they get together and everything works out.

 

[Averon]

Price announcement at E3? Not likely. With GamesCom being more and more important to Sony, expect an announcement on PS4 pricing then.

 

[velociraptor]

So any theories on the ROPs overkill thing? The way I understand it, it's kinda pointless to have 32 ROPs in your machine. So why did Sony take this route?

Can 32ROPS allow you to play all games at 1080p, 8xAA, 16xAF, 60FPS? If yes, then I don't think it's a waste. 1080p for every single game would be AMAZING.

 

[Manmademan]

Can 32ROPS allow you to play all games at 1080p, 8xAA, 16xAF, 60FPS? If yes, then I don't think it's a waste. 1080p for every single game would be AMAZING.

I think 1080p for all games this gen is a reasonable target, personally. Just about any tv you can buy these days is 1080p native by default.

maybe not at 60fps for all games, and probably not for 3D content (if this is still a thing) but I think the days of 720p as a standard are done- at least for sony.

 

[velociraptor]

So what do these ROPS allow?

More framerate? Higher resolution? Free AA?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I don't expect the price on Wednesday unless they go all out crazy with a $299 price point. Which isn't happening.

If $399, E3
If higher than $399, as close to launch as they can get away with.

 

[vpance]

If you're looking for surprises at these console reveals, then don't look towards the raw hardware specifications. They're not changing for the better.

Things can change, especially when we don't know if we're even looking at the whole picture.

If I was a dev and had been claiming both systems are close in performance for a few months, and if something changed and that was no longer true, before I quit commenting on them completely I'd start to lay the groundwork for possible changes so my rep isn't stained when people go back and dig up my old posts

 

[Man]

So what do these ROPS allow?

More framerate? Higher resolution? Free AA?

More framerate. Higher resolution. Better AA.

 

[Ty4on]

18 months of nvidia GPUs suffered from the exact same problem. And consoles are tighter confines than most PC cases. Laptops would be a better comparison, and what do you know — laptops suffer from much higher failure rates.

That was bad solder and AFAIK it was only 8400m and 8600m. The Xbox had a really bad cooling setup, but the biggest problem was the x-clamp squeezing the middle of the chip up towards the heatsink which caused the edges to loose contact after a while. Repaired Xboxes came with glue on the side of the chips to prevent it from happening again, but it didn't work.

My Xbox that I got after sending it in (different DVD drive so they probably just replaced it) is an early 06 with glue around CPU and GPU, extra little heatsink for GPU, but still original PSU and heat output. After a while it RRoD'd, but by replacing the x-clamps with pads making the pressure on the chip even it suddenly worked without any reballing.

This was also the case with the fat 360, but there two chips got squeezed and the heat was much higher which is probably what caused the mobo to flex over time. The towel trick worked by making the GPU so hot it flexed the mobo back into a position where it got contact.

Ignore the fan at the bottom because otherwise this is the Xbox 360 fat's cooling system. Two tiny fans draw air from one mile away through the plastic duct. To make matters worse the GPU is underneath the DVD drive and needs a very flat and inefficient heatsink and the only fix they gave it was a tiny extra heatsink in front of the CPU heatsink. That extra heatsink would be underneath the fan in this pic, but this was an early model without it.

 

[RoboPlato]

But if you read the article they already said that the RAM went up to 4GB. They then said Sony told developers they're going to match the RAM in Durango. Why would they repeat something that already happened?

It doesn't have to be 8GB. Maby something close? Maby not even DDR5.

I think they meant match in terms of performance, not number. Sony has stuff like the decompression unit which can be used to help streaming. Combine an advanced streaming set up with the throughput of GDDR5 and the smaller amount won't matter much. I could see them speeding up the blu-ray drive and lessening the OS footprint while a game is being played (like the light OS mode in the Vita) but unless they managed to find a way to get stacked RAM in there, which is very unlikely, it'll be 4gb GDDR total.

 

[dragonelite]

Can 32ROPS allow you to play all games at 1080p, 8xAA, 16xAF, 60FPS? If yes, then I don't think it's a waste. 1080p for every single game would be AMAZING.

If all you did was write pixel maybe.
But i think biggest amount of time is calculating the lighting and shadowing of objects.
I really do think those 32 rops are there for 4k content(high framerate 3D Or multiple 1080p 3D sources on one screen).

I could be wrong wiki only says something about Fillrate of Rops.

 

[deanos]

He is.

Trust me on this one.

welcome back, i hope you learned your lesson.

 

[yurinka]

But if you read the article they already said that the RAM went up to 4GB. They then said Sony told developers they're going to match the RAM in Durango. Why would they repeat something that already happened?

It doesn't have to be 8GB. Maby something close? Maby not even DDR5.

A good move from Sony would be to go 8GB DDR3. It would be cheaper, Sony would spend less memory on non-game stuff and would allow the devs to code in low level if wanted. So Sony still would be on a better place RAM wise.

 

[Mr Swine]

I think they meant match in terms of performance, not number. Sony has stuff like the decompression unit which can be used to help streaming. Combine an advanced streaming set up with the throughput of GDDR5 and the smaller amount won't matter much. I could see them speeding up the blu-ray drive and lessening the OS footprint while a game is being played (like the light OS mode in the Vita) but unless they managed to find a way to get stacked RAM in there, which is very unlikely, it'll be 4gb GDDR total.

It won't matter much the first 2-3 years if the difference is only 2-2.5GB but later down the road maybe the Xbox will have the advantage if the memory footprint gets smaller

 

[Jinko]

It won't matter much the first 2-3 years if the difference is only 2-2.5GB but later down the road maybe the Xbox will have the advantage if the memory footprint gets smaller

Dont' underestimate what can be done with faster memory, it works both ways really, there will be things capable on a PS4 that won't work on a Durango.

 

[Mr Swine]

Dont' underestimate what can be done with faster memory, it works both ways really, there will be thinks capable on a PS4 that won't work on a Durango.

Yeah I know, but would Orbis still have an advantage if the Microsoft later down the road lets the developers use 7GB of ram instead of the supposed 5GB ram? I know that the memory is really slow compared to the memory Orbis has

 

[mrgreen]

The more I read these comparison, the more I think PSN is critical to Sony's aspirations of "winning the next gen" (ugh. I hated writing that).

If they can make the PSN experience the same as XBox Live with regards to the ability of inviting friends, parties, etc then I believe they will do fantastic.

Even if they get close, I think it will be increasingly hard for MS to justify the Xbox Live subscription costs.

I agree. I would be happy to pay a one-off payment of up to £40, but not pay every year or whatever.

 

[Jinko]

Yeah I know, but would Orbis still have an advantage if the Microsoft later down the road lets the developers use 7GB of ram instead of the supposed 5GB ram? I know that the memory is really slow compared to the memory Orbis has

Hard to say, exclusive wise the developers will just program to the consoles strengths, multi platform they will probably program to the lowest spec (which will most likely be the PS4, not because of performance but memory footprint)

We could see multiplatform games on Xbox have texture pop in issues, streaming stutter and longer load times if the PS4 is the lead platform.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

Dont' underestimate what can be done with faster memory, it works both ways really, there will be thinks capable on a PS4 that won't work on a Durango.

Like what, exactly? I see the value of being able to consume more data to feed the processing, but is MS really not covering this base to a satisfactory level with their custom memory configuration with extra purpose-driven logic to facilitate it? Without final hardware and software to compare, and that we're still hearing impressions that come from dev kit PCs standing in for final hardware and lacking final spec-specific capability, how is it so certain that this isn't going to be addressed in the final, released form?

 

[Pristine_Condition]

But what if he isn't trolling with that comment?

He called the new Playstation the "Derpstation" in an earlier tweet.

Come on, Reiko...use your cognitive skills.

 

[AgentP]

A good move from Sony would be to go 8GB DDR3. It would be cheaper, Sony would spend less memory on non-game stuff and would allow the devs to code in low level if wanted. So Sony still would be on a better place RAM wise.

You might be on to something, you should e-mail Sony and let them know.

 

[MightyHedgehog]

We could see multiplatform games on Xbox have texture pop in issues, streaming stutter and longer load times if the PS4 is the lead platform.

You think so? MS is very tight with Crytek and Epic, going so far as to publish multiple games showcasing their tech as well as having the two highest-profile game engines licensed to internal XBOX platform developers to work with. And with both tech bases targeting heavier streaming demands in next-gen hardware implementations, and MS heavily-involved in the future of computer graphics, you're actually suggesting that MS has gone the long way around to make their new platform gimped for what will surely continue to be the mainstream game development software for AAA next-generation multiplatform development? What? Why would MS give Sony the easy route with simply throwing mostly-off the shelf hardware that produces better specs into a box and calling it a day? Why would MS spend money and time, adding more risk than is necessary to their production schedule, to gimp their system? Knowing how valuable core gaming is to their bottom line, why wouldn't they just match or even out-spec Sony's box, then? I find it impossible-sounding the notion that their supposed insistence on having 8Gigs of considerably slower RAM than the competition has informed the rest of their design, as if they knew Sony would choose 4Gigs of faster memory during the design process years ago, even looking at roadmaps and progress for memory with costs projected over their budget. I find it more than a little strange-sounding considering the cost of this new memory will drive downward over time as it's used in nearly every GPU going forward and that they could shoulder an early loss upfront to match Sony's amount if it really mattered. Why would MS go with a new long-life hardware platform that cannot perform on par with the most direct competition launching against them? Because they're more interested in media and social functions and casual games than the traditional core games market (the one they see at the top of their own software lists every month)? That argument doesn't make sense, either, since those features are more based in software than anything else. Not saying you're making these claims, but I never understood these reasons often given for the supposed disparity in capability.

 

[bgassassin]

Passing along some info I just posted on B3D.

Xbox 3's CPU from a FLOPs perspective seems it may have as much as double the performance of "vanilla" Jaguar cores.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Passing along some info I just posted on B3D.

Xbox 3's CPU from a FLOPs perspective seems it may have as much as double the performance of "vanilla" Jaguar cores.

In layman terms? A noticeable increase in computing power?

 

[Eideka]

Passing along some info I just posted on B3D.

Xbox 3's CPU from a FLOPs perspective seems it may have as much as double the performance of "vanilla" Jaguar cores.

Do you have a source ?

 

[bgassassin]

^ Of course. I avoid speculating when I can get actual info.

In layman terms? A noticeable increase in computing power?

Yes. PS4 in comparison is using some of the GPU CU's to compliment their CPU. PS4 still has the raw power edge, but this helps to show why the gap isn't as big as it was originally sounding.

 

[Proelite]

welcome back, i hope you learned your lesson.

I got banned for thread whining so yeah I did.